Author |
Message |
   
Sean Flood
Citizen Username: Campus_sub_shop
Post Number: 133 Registered: 6-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 9:53 am: |
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Oracle, unlike you, my posts were to expose (what percieves to be) substandard management and suspicious decision making. You seem to want to turn this into something personal or mudslinging -which I won't get pulled into. Stay on point and maybe something will be accomplished. Otherwise all of these posts are in vain. If personal rhetoric is your source of entertainment, it's counter productive to the end result ... accountability. Accountability of leadership, accountability of money and accountability for the vision for SO. Unless of course status-quo fits you well. At this point, I have nothing else to add so I'm pulling out of this board. I've laid most of it out there in hopes people would see a pattern of poor decision making, unprofessional activities and/or incompetence. Now you can choose some else as your punching bag. |
   
Lucy
Supporter Username: Lucy
Post Number: 2844 Registered: 5-2005

| Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 9:59 am: |
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Sean, don't base everyones opinion on soda's comments. Thanks for the insight on how business is done in the Village. |
   
User58
Citizen Username: User58
Post Number: 401 Registered: 8-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 10:21 am: |
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I think Sean should stop complaining and do something positive! I hear that an art gallery is going into the sickley building..POSATIVE..I love the new gift store in the space next to Bunnys...POSITIVE....Village diner on the way...POSATIVE....VillageCellar....POSATIVE.... Burk art gallery....POSATIVE. GET YOU SANDWICH SHOP OPEN AGAIN POSATIVE!!!! |
   
MHD
Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3362 Registered: 5-2001

| Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 10:25 am: |
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Lerneeng how too spell - Positive.  |
   
Lucy
Supporter Username: Lucy
Post Number: 2846 Registered: 5-2005

| Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 10:33 am: |
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MHD |
   
User58
Citizen Username: User58
Post Number: 402 Registered: 8-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 10:42 am: |
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Noted! I will use spel chek |
   
Pizzaz
Supporter Username: Pizzaz
Post Number: 3152 Registered: 11-2001

| Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 11:51 am: |
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What type of art gallery, User? Who owns the building - do you know? |
   
User58
Citizen Username: User58
Post Number: 404 Registered: 8-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 1:43 pm: |
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Not sure who the owner is but I head an art gallery in one side and a restaurant in the other.
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Veritas Ultimo
Citizen Username: Veritas_ultimo
Post Number: 43 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 3:48 am: |
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I can't recall whether Village President Calabrese participated in the voting regarding the re-zoning of the Warnock site and the designation of the re-zoned area for some of the Mt. Laurel obligation, but I do know that members of the Village government and Trustees were very angry at the Realtor for the Warnock/ Village Supermarkets for supporting the suit brought by Warnock. That Realtor was former Trustee, Joseph Flood. After Warnock dismissed the suit and left the Village, Mr.Flood and Village Supermarkets were left to feel (to different degrees) the residual anger of the Village about having its decisions challenged in court. |
   
Sean Flood
Citizen Username: Campus_sub_shop
Post Number: 134 Registered: 6-2005
| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 11:22 am: |
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If Village Trustees were angry or not is not really the point. I think it's important to know if Calabrese voted on the rezoning -especially if he was asked to recuse himself based on conflict of interest (Shoperite's intention to have a large pharmacy). Moreover, in light of his admitted relationship with Sayid thus another potential conflict of interest. Maybe this is all coincidence, maybe Calabrese is just unlucky to fall into these situations or maybe this is how SO has operated for some years now? Joseph Flood was my Father. As the realtor, his involvement in the dispute was null. My understanding was Shoprite did not want to fight to move to a better location and rather than fight, they just bailed out of the deal. Now SO still does not have a grocery store and is left with a huge mess in the middle of the Village.
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mrosner
Citizen Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2564 Registered: 4-2002
| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 12:15 pm: |
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Sean: My recollection was there was a petition with hundreds of signatures stating they did not want the market at that location. I was not on the BOT then, but I do remember there were people from all over the village that were not in favor of the Shop-Rite. One argument was the store on S. Orange avenue was a run-down mess and there was a general distrust of Shop-rite (similar to the feeling today about Beifus). By the way, S. Orange does have a supermarket on Valley street. |
   
Sean Flood
Citizen Username: Campus_sub_shop
Post Number: 135 Registered: 6-2005
| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 1:17 pm: |
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Though you were not on the BOT then, could you find out if Calabrese voted on this when advised not to? I think people should know in light of the suspicions surrounding his other business dealings. To use your words, "a general distrust". Most people would consider that supermarket a "Maplewood" supermarket and it's quite inconvenient for people in SO to travel that far to grab some basic necessities. Also, competition is good for the citizens of SO. My understanding is that SO has acknowledged the need for a new supermarket. In fact, wasn't A&P recently being considered in the area of Bunny's until the traffic study and crowding didn't add up (because A&P was going to try to build a modern SUPER Supermarket)? Though the old Shoprite was a "run down mess", I would suspect it would have been better than what's been there for the past few years. I bet SO's code/health enforcement officials would have turned that situation around. As for signatures, I suspect you could find as many people who would want an independent investigation of the Sayid/Calabrese deal(s), The senior citizens housing "flip" on Ridgewood etc... So I don't buy it totally ... but see your point. Though I understand where people are coming from, I have purposely kept out of commenting on Beifus because of my involvement of sorts. |
   
mrosner
Citizen Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2565 Registered: 4-2002
| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 1:36 pm: |
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A & P wanted to build a 50,000 sq. foot building (which meant they needed to buy (or ask us to condemn) some more property plus relocate 3 tennis courts. I never felt like they were serious but the traffic such a large market would generate was a concern. They would not consider a smaller market. I agree competition is good. From what I hear the shop-rite was a dump going back at least as far as the 70's. Thirty years and they could not clean up the store or I never saw any real attempt. My feeling was they did not deserve a chance to build a new market based on their history. If they had competition, then they probably would have done more to maintain the building. And yes, with 20-20 hindsight, perhaps it might have been better to have let them build the market. I was told Calabrese did not vote on the shop-rite. I do not know how much participation or influence he had on planning board members or other trustees - and that is/was the real issue, I think.
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michael brant
Citizen Username: Mbrant
Post Number: 83 Registered: 10-2005
| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 1:48 pm: |
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Mr. Flood I would like to address one comment you made. Competition is good for the residents of South Orange. If the ultimate goal is to have quality privately owned business in town then competition is not a good thing. It drives good businesses out of business. What is good for the residents of our town is for there to be complementing businesses. For example we have a nice sporting goods store. Would another sporting goods store survive? Would another candle shop survive? A small town that wants to maintain a level of character and taste needs small business that offer good products for a fair price and good service. If you are looking for great prices go to Costco or target. If we want a strong town base then we need a strong small store base and the town must support these businesses as long as these businesses show respect for the town. I buy many candles in the candle shop the owner is pleasant and they wrap beautifully. Now I could go to target to get a candle....but you get what you pay for. Everyone complains what things cost and this store is too expensive...you should never counts other peoples money. I was talking to a friend and he was saying how expensive a certain restaurant was in town and I replied you are a lawyer who bills at $400.00 per hour! $30.00 for a steak that probably costs $10-$15 then cook it serve it clean up the dishes pay the rent put on the lights pay the staff and $30.00 is cheap for a steak. SO competition in a small town like ours drives good businesses out of business. Plain and simple. What we need is a nice butcher shop, green grocer, fish market and businesses like this. You should understand this you were in the business. |
   
Sean Flood
Citizen Username: Campus_sub_shop
Post Number: 136 Registered: 6-2005
| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 2:10 pm: |
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Mark, I agree. 20/20 hingsight is always better. No crystal ball here. I shopped at Shoprite in the 70's until it closed and have to admit, towards the end it was unsightly at times. I often attributed the condition of the store to the age of the building more than the management. I'm shocked Wakefern (or whom ever owned SR then) would allow their "brand" to be represented so poorly. Any clue if SO ever tried to contact them re: the conditions? I had heard that Calabrese voted on SR, taken to court re: conflict of interest, ordered not to vote again and still voted. If you are sure this was not the case then I shouldn't link it to his revelation of (a percieved) dubious buisness partnership (via conflict of interest). I assume you are certain. How would one see if he did not -in fact, have any "influence" or "participation" on the planning board. In the best interest of the people who elected him, shouldn't he have no involvement whatsoever and let the thing play out as the public wished? |
   
peteglider
Citizen Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 1802 Registered: 8-2002
| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 2:13 pm: |
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Michael -- I cannot see your vision working, not anymore. A cute little candle shop is never going to be competitive with a gift shop at the mall. It will barely have enough business to survive, probably will never thrive. A village sporting goods store will never be able to compete with the mall version. Having Mom & Pop butcher and green grocer shops will never bring a stable business base. They may come, try to make a go of it, but likely will not last. Its just not going to happen in today's environment. I believe we need a mix -- shops that are competitive in price and selection with the mall stores, along with the smaller shops that offer high service, etc. and are differentitated that way. I've used the phrase "mess of shops" before about SO. Its not derogatory to the shops themselves -- it's just that most people don't shop like that anymore AND most stores need to be larger to be competitive. We need more planned shopping, somewhat larger stores, and of course, more convenient and easy parking. SO businesses will not survive if we try to recreate a downtown with lots of little boxes with owner operated stores. We need GAP and B Dalton type stores -- to "anchor" the downtown. Pete (BTW - I do agree with you on the restaurant example, which will complement other businesses nicely) |
   
mrosner
Citizen Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2566 Registered: 4-2002
| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 2:29 pm: |
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Sean: I am not certain about whether Calabrese voted at any time on the shop-rite issue. Will see if I can find out definitely (and which way he voted). I did see letters back and forth between shop-rite and the village. They promised more than once to renovate the building, etc.
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Sean Flood
Citizen Username: Campus_sub_shop
Post Number: 137 Registered: 6-2005
| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 2:31 pm: |
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Michael, Let me respond by saying that I agree almost entirely with what you said. All the types of stores you mentioned (and more) are sorely needed in SO. I do believe that there should be more choice but also so repeated themes. Take -for example, McDonalds. Within 1 mile of each McDonalds is a Burger King. They feed off each other while still in competition. This is a concept that is subscribed to by many major retailers/merchants. Also, when people have more choices, there is a heightened sense of customer service and quality...knowing poor performance could directly affect business? I'm not talking about a mistake. Lord knows we had our own; I'm talking about consistent poor service and quality. Some people are calling for more liquor licenses to be released. I think it would be great for SO to have more restaurants. The posts I've seen about a certain restaurants attitude toward children (and the patrons as well) or quality/choices of food would be fewer and fewer. BTW, I also understand why the current establishments do not want more (sorta a Catch 22). Look at Hoboken -for example. There are over 100 liquor licenses in only 1 square mile! It actually attracts more people and -trust me, those establishments do quite well -from small taverns, to bistros to gourmet restaurants. I'm not suggesting turning SO into a Hoboken, SO is more mature or sophisticated but (as choice goes) the more, the merrier. It's about creating foot traffic but being the first is difficult. You have to wait for others to come and join in the renaissance. Costco et al... have their place but (I think) people moved to SO for it's "Main Street" appeal and would support them. The problem is it has to be a multi-pronged effort.
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Sean Flood
Citizen Username: Campus_sub_shop
Post Number: 138 Registered: 6-2005
| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 2:33 pm: |
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Thanks Mark. You've always been responsive. |
   
michael brant
Citizen Username: Mbrant
Post Number: 84 Registered: 10-2005
| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 2:53 pm: |
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Oh Pete glider How wrong you are. Are you aware that Mr. Chin the recent owner of the village sporting goods store put a daughter through Harvard and then Harvard grad school and his son recently graduated from Carnegie Mellon. By the way no loans. I know him well. He ran a professional business |
   
michael brant
Citizen Username: Mbrant
Post Number: 85 Registered: 10-2005
| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 3:18 pm: |
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Take -for example, McDonalds. Within 1 mile of each McDonalds is a Burger King. They feed off each other while still in competition. This is a concept that is subscribed to by many major retailers/merchants. Mr. Flood that is apples and oranges. Major chain stores will kill a small town. Good bye to the local hardware store hello Home Depot. Also, when people have more choices, there is a heightened sense of customer service and quality...knowing poor performance could directly affect business? I'm not talking about a mistake. Lord knows we had our own; I'm talking about consistent poor service and quality. Mr. Flood A bad business person is a bad business person. Direct competition kills the good guy. You could not be more incorrect in you thoughts. Direct competition can decrease quality and service to drive sales. Complementing businesses can increase customer flow and increase sales. Restaurants are normally the only business that would not be affected because the average house spend more money on food consumption than anything else. Now if the goal is to have a McDonalds, taco bell and the likes in town then you are correct. You will end up with a dump. Are you aware that Sloan street which is the most desired location in town today is used as a success model nationally by an independent company to teach prospective developers how to revitalize and build strength in a business environment. And by the way the landlord will not rent to direct competitive businesses. |
   
peteglider
Citizen Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 1804 Registered: 8-2002
| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 3:21 pm: |
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Michael -- There are positive examples, of course. Glad to hear he and his family are good industrious businesspeople. vs. How many people in South Orange use a butcher today, how many even would? How many people come to South Orange to buy jeans vs how many go to the Gap? or come to buy Shoes? or a nice shirt & tie? or a computer? or a CD? How many iterations did "Lot 15/etc." go through (still going through?)? You only have to look at the lousy developers in this town and the little shops that seem to barely have any customers in them to realize this is not sustainable. Its the "dream" of many to own a shop -- but most of those people have dreams and little business acumen (accounting, sales, marketing, merchandising, etc.). Most fail quickly. I just looked up the data -- 39% are profitable, 30% break even, 30% lose money -- those arn't very good odds, and IMO I wouldn't gamble this town's future on that. A downtown of little shops and businesses owned by people who live in the village -- I dont' see it. Do you have anything other than your gut instinct or hopes to bet the town's future on it? It *would* be nice -- I just don't see any evidence for it. Pete |
   
michael brant
Citizen Username: Mbrant
Post Number: 86 Registered: 10-2005
| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 3:23 pm: |
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Pete when you say stores to compete in price with mall stores are you refering to The thriving Short Hills Mall or the rumored soon to close due to lack of business Livingston Mall? |
   
michael brant
Citizen Username: Mbrant
Post Number: 87 Registered: 10-2005
| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 3:36 pm: |
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Lot 15 is a perfect example of a poorly run business. Now hopefully the current owner will make a go of it. I shop in the Orange tree and I hear they are doing quite well. The blue moon....bad business person but I hear from people the original owners were packed all day. Oh by the way the gap is having trouble their business has struggled. And the big problem with a Gap in a town like ours is when they fail and they will they leave a huge gapping store to fill. And that is not easy to do. Your numbers are correct about mom and pops but that is the same in all small businesses..doctors, lawyers etc. But Mom and Pops are the mainstay and the backbone of all successful towns. Department store and large chains are the backbone of malls and strip centers. SO yes for every success story like the sporting goods store there are failures also. But in the long run you are better off with the small ones. I am sure everyone loves having a block buster. I go to we got movies. |
   
Sean Flood
Citizen Username: Campus_sub_shop
Post Number: 139 Registered: 6-2005
| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 3:38 pm: |
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Michael I would hate to see Taco Bell or Burger King come to SO. I was using the theory that businesses feed of of other businesses. I agree, it would be a dump. On the other points, lets agree to disagree. I do think we want what's best for SO though and that provokes healthy debate/conversation/ideas. I would like to see many boutique stores and restaurants in SO but it has to be prepared and supported by the Village (ie. Main Street, developement plans etc...). Asking someone to invest their life saving into a spot in HOPES others will follow is a big risk. The good thing is there aren't any major arteries in and out of SO thus encouraging local shopping. Maybe not a for car but certainly the unique -which is great for a Village. Barnes & Noble, The Gap, William Sonoma are great anchors worthy of consideration. With those in place, the "feeders" (small local shops) will be more willing to take a risk and thrive.
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michael brant
Citizen Username: Mbrant
Post Number: 88 Registered: 10-2005
| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 3:50 pm: |
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Sean everything in life is a risk. Barnes & Noble a great idea appeals to everyone and all age groups... William Sonoma the same. The Gap a certain demographic. Their business is struggling and if they came to town they would fail and run leaving a huge space to fill. So you see you agree with me complementing businesses work. I could also prove this to you...once you re open your business I will open across the street and sell what you sell but for less (competition). In a short amount of time one of us will do better than the other and sooner than later both of us will either close or just not do well at all. I will leave the sandwich business to you! I would just eat all my profits. |
   
peteglider
Citizen Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 1805 Registered: 8-2002
| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 4:00 pm: |
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Michael -- Maybe a few of each ;-) Pete |
   
Sean Flood
Citizen Username: Campus_sub_shop
Post Number: 140 Registered: 6-2005
| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 4:05 pm: |
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Monopolies can be a problem. |
   
michael brant
Citizen Username: Mbrant
Post Number: 89 Registered: 10-2005
| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 4:16 pm: |
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Monopolies Mr. Flood we are talking about small stores here. No one is controlling a commodity here. But if you want a nice thriving quaint small town think quaint small town. |
   
John Glick
Citizen Username: Jgg
Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 5:07 pm: |
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I agree with peteglider that success in retail is a product of quality developers. During the Millennium presentation last week, a point of emphasis made was the goal of making South Orange a destination point by creating an environment in which people from other towns, as well as residents from South Orange, would want to shop and dine. However, it would seem apparent that in order to attract quality retailers into the Village, it is a safe bet that quality residential housing right in the Village would have to be put in place first. If and when, and hopefully sooner than later, a project such as the one proposed by Millennium is put in place, this should help not only potential new stores such as a Barnes and Noble, William Sonoma, Hallmark and mens and womens clothing, but also some of the established retailers in town based on more people having a willingness to spend in the Village as opposed to other destinations. From my view, and from the apparent view of many others who attended the presentation last week and who I saw speaking with Trustee DeVaris, while the BOT does not seem to have a vision for the Village, it would appear that at least Millennium has a pretty attractive looking vision in place.
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MHD
Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3378 Registered: 5-2001

| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 5:08 pm: |
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Mr Berkeley - glad you could join us here online. However, can you at least post under your own name. |
   
pan
Citizen Username: Pan
Post Number: 111 Registered: 8-2001
| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 7:46 pm: |
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John Glick, You are right: "Millennium has a pretty attractive looking vision in place". A pretty attractive looking vision for their pockets that is. Let's face it: Millennium is in the business of development so that they can make money. They see an opportunity for them on Valley, they want to grab it no matter what effects that will have on our town. Are we going to let them? They've spent a lot of money for their PR on this project. Are we going to fall for it? I know the trustees have made a lot of mistakes in our downtown. Let's not let them make this big one. We need to see proposals from other developers for such a prime location that is Valley Street. |
   
Just The Aunt
Supporter Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 4028 Registered: 1-2004

| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 8:29 pm: |
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Sean- I am asking you again to show me what you have. You have said nobody has taken you up on your offer to produce it for them; yet I have asked / volunteered to view it and confirm what you have at least twice. It's understandable with all the posts on MOL you could have missed my notes. Feel free to PL me to meet up with you at your convince. Thanks! |
   
Just The Aunt
Supporter Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 4029 Registered: 1-2004

| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 8:46 pm: |
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Michael if it is true that "Sloan Street is used as a success model nationally by an independent company to teach prospective developers how to revitalize and build strength in a business environment." that's pretty sad. Pete- I think a fish or meat market could survive. Look at Freeman's Fish Market in Maplewood. They do great! And hopefully after they're a hit at the pool this summer maybe we can get them to open a location here in South Orange! Sean- If there are public records about all that you've said, I am sure Howard will find them; if you ask him. I mean this is a good way! |
   
Just The Aunt
Supporter Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 4030 Registered: 1-2004

| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 8:58 pm: |
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MHD Who is 'Mr Berkeley?' |
   
cmontyburns
Citizen Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 1757 Registered: 12-2003

| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 10:37 pm: |
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In the lengthy time Sean says he has been trying to reopen, Caribbean Cuisine, Neicy's, Voro, Village Diner, Village Cellar, Ocean Blue Chinese, Antonella's, Ariyoshi, Unnamed Deli Across from Train Station, Sweet Concessions, Frank's Trattoria, Quiznos and Subway have either opened or announced plans to open. Not to mention all the places in Maplewood (which isn't exactly a world away from South Orange -- everyone I know eats in both) or the non-restaurant businesses that have found places in town. I'm starting to wonder if maybe -- just maybe -- there's more to it than an evil cabal organized to keep Campus Subs from reopening in South Orange. |
   
Mayor McCheese
Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 872 Registered: 7-2004

| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 11:25 pm: |
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And yet he closed after the Town Hall Deli. And the THD doesn't even have half a building yet to reopen in. I just wonder if Sean is getting a bad rap for being as open as he can be about his process of reopening. |
   
Dave
Supporter Username: Dave
Post Number: 8683 Registered: 4-1997

| Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 11:41 pm: |
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JTA, 'Mr Berkeley' is the attorney for Millennium Developers and is a SO resident in addition to being an officer of the court. I have to say I never understood the fascination with THD or their faux sloppy joes (sloppy joes have ground beef and tomato sauce in my world). I've always been more of a "sub" than a "deli" guy in that feisty, cantankerous world of sandwiches. |
   
susan1014
Supporter Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 1365 Registered: 3-2002
| Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 12:03 am: |
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Whether Glick is Berkeley or not, I think that Barnes and Noble and Williams Sonoma would be amused to hear themselves suggested as possible tenants for new retail in a Millennium project. Downtown South Orange just does not have the highway/through street access to be a prime location for either, especially with the Short Hills Mall in the neighborhood. We can indulge in wishful thinking, but lets not approve development projects based on it. |
   
Dave
Supporter Username: Dave
Post Number: 8689 Registered: 4-1997

| Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 12:08 am: |
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If you can't make empty promises, where's the pleasure in billing your client exhorbitantly for posting on a message board that no one reads?
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Nohero
Supporter Username: Nohero
Post Number: 5052 Registered: 10-1999

| Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 9:39 am: |
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Just to drift - Dave, it's not a "faux" sloppy joe - it's an "original" - Quote:In New Jersey, however, the Sloppy Joe is something completely different. Instead of ground beef, it contains some kind of deli lunch meat, for example, turkey, ham, roast beef, or even sliced cow tongue. It is served on rye bread, often "double-decker" or "triple-decker." The sandwich is dressed with Swiss cheese, cole slaw, and Russian dressing, similar to a reuben sandwich. One theory of the beginnings of this sandwich is that it originated at Sloppy Joe 's Bar in Havanna. The New Jersey version, however, first appeared on the menu of the Town Hall Deli in South Orange, New Jersey in 1936. To this day, that version, called the Original Sloppy Joe, is a triple-decker sandwich with layers of ham, tongue, and Swiss cheese, with Russian dressing served on long, thin slices of buttered rye and cut into quarters. Another version is made with smoked salmon, creamed cheese and egg salad. Yet others include corned beef. Some further evidence of the Cuban connection is seen in a sandwich served in the West Village of New York City. It is essentially a Cuban ropa vieja sandwich, which is based on a marinated pulled skirt steak that is then stewed in a combination of tomato sauce with garlic, cumin, tomatoes, peppers and chilies. This particular iteration is then served on a steam-oven bun. The New Jersey version of the sandwich, legend has it, was brought back to the states by a mayor of Maplewood, New Jersey in 1934 or 1935. Of course, given all the versions of the sandwich, there are many explanations for its invention and name. Some hold that it originated in Sloppy Joe's bar in Cuba. Others attribute it to Sloppy Joe's in Key Wes, Florida - a favorite hangout of Earnest Hemmingway - which is responsible for the first appearance of the name in print. Still another attributes the ground-meat form of the sandwich to a diner in Iowa, or to the depression-era habit of making almost anything out of hamburger.
http://www.creativehomestyle.com/article_origin_sloppy_joe.html Folks I know who grew up in Montclair, Vailsburg and Newark's West Ward also know about the "original" Sloppy Joe. And, for the record, I am not being paid to post here. If only! |
   
peteglider
Citizen Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 1809 Registered: 8-2002
| Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 9:49 am: |
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Susan -- At least the post is aspirational! The reality is with the current outdated building/store opportunities and parking issues, SO will never be a destination for those types of retailers. With the right development, whether Millennium or other developer, perhaps it could be. Pete
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John Glick
Citizen Username: Jgg
Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 10:45 am: |
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Thank you petegilder. It is refreshing to hear another voice that aspires for the Village to improve as far as development is concerned, no matter who the developer is, rather than focusing on negativity all of the time based on past and current failures. I guess this message board assumes that if someone has something positive to say about an issue such as redevelopment that there must be some ulterior motive involved. Clearly, if one is to take the view of being suspicious of any developers vision for the Village based on the fact that a developer will make money off a project, than all proposals will fail public scrutiny because developing is a business like anything else that seeks to make money. Based on that fact alone maybe the focus should become more on whether someone is at least making an effort to come up with a positive vision for the future of the Village rather than focusing on negativity all of the time. That is what I observed at the Millennium presentation. |
   
bettyd
Citizen Username: Badjtdso
Post Number: 90 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 10:53 am: |
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Sloan Street is viewed nationally as some sort of success model? Really? Why? |
   
Lucy
Supporter Username: Lucy
Post Number: 2886 Registered: 5-2005

| Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 10:54 am: |
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John if a developer came in and had a plan that did not include a 30 year tax abatement as a birthright people might be more trusting. |
   
michael brant
Citizen Username: Mbrant
Post Number: 90 Registered: 10-2005
| Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 11:05 am: |
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Just the aunt it is not sad. If you look at all of south orange the only location that is thriving is Sloan Street. This is a vision of what the entire town could look like. Uniform beautiful signs..awnings on each business. A model that has proven to work in a town that is struggling. Now if you could imagine that if the same person that spearheaded this location managed the town well I think we would be in much better shape. From what I understand and I have done my homework this location was in the same shape as the rest of the town. The landlord had VISION and took a huge chance to redevelop a struggling location. And has done a wonderful job. Cait and Abby, Starbucks, ReMax, Urban Femme, OnTrack Cleaners, Cold Stone, Blue Moon. Cait and Abbey has been there for more than 5 years, Starbucks is one of the top producers in the area, ReMax has been there since the beginning, Urban Femme has been there over 4 years, On Track Cleaners 7 plus years, Cold Stone Going into their 3rd year, Blue Moon 8 years and a new owner is in and I hear renovating to create a great diner. So you see this is a success story. Notice no nail salons and every business is open. No coming soon signs. You cannot argue with success. I am in the commercial real estate business. I wish I had this property. Oh and by the way Dunkin Donuts is one of the top producers in the state with annual sales well over a million dollars. |
   
mary032
Citizen Username: Mary032
Post Number: 219 Registered: 8-2001
| Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 12:04 pm: |
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Carey Heller, the owner of Lokomotive who developed Sloan Street, had great plans for the rest of the Village as well. But his somehow abrasive personality clashed with Calabrese's power hunger and ego building, and Heller left this town in disgust. Calabrese and his cronies have been the scourge that hurts progress in this Village, |
   
michael brant
Citizen Username: Mbrant
Post Number: 91 Registered: 10-2005
| Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 12:11 pm: |
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Carey Heller also wanted the supermarket location....it would have been done by now. But he wanted the town to lease him the property. But they would not. This would have been a good move for the town. This man has self respect and vision. He is not in it for a quick buck. He personally interviews each and every prospective renter to be sure they meet the standard for his vision and has in place the proper financing to succeed. Calabrese and his crew trust the likes of Beifus and Sayed. |
   
mrosner
Citizen Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2571 Registered: 4-2002
| Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 12:32 pm: |
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Just as a point of clarification, there was a discussion with Cary Heller about the supermarket location back in the late 90's. The only correspondence I saw was a letter written by Mr. Heller to the village in 1998 (It was in my first packet of mail after being appointed to the BOT). At that point whatever prospective deal that might have been discussed was a dead issue. There were no further discussions with him since to my knowledge.
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michael brant
Citizen Username: Mbrant
Post Number: 92 Registered: 10-2005
| Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 12:37 pm: |
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I would think that is because he considers the mgt of our town to be bumbling boobs. |
   
mary032
Citizen Username: Mary032
Post Number: 220 Registered: 8-2001
| Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 1:08 pm: |
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Right on, Michael. |
   
SO1969
Citizen Username: Bklyn1969
Post Number: 213 Registered: 7-2004
| Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 5:29 pm: |
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I met with a developer recently who said of a large city in the Northeast that they had absolutely no interest in working in that particular city because the government was so bad, it couldn't get out of its own way. The developer said the City had completely missed the boom of the 90s/00s. This wasn't hyperbole. It was true. Fortunately, Midtown direct and booming housing prices have worked in SO's favor and SO did not miss the boom. The Developer's comment re-enforced for me the importance of governance and having a reputation for being a place people want to do business. That doesn't mean biz interests above all else, but it does mean being professional, transparent and reasonable.
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joel dranove
Citizen Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 67 Registered: 1-2006
| Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 10:04 pm: |
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We did miss the boom, and don't ignore what could have been. Imagine if downtown did not look like Fort Apache, Bronx for the past ten years. Remember what our town looks like to all who drive or pass through on a train. We have fifteen years of stasis, and decay - but, maybe, just maybe, voter apathy seems to be over, thanks to the internet, and a seething frustration which can now be felt. The new white-wash wall hiding Lake Beifus is ready for postings. Such as, well, "coming soon." jd |
   
peteglider
Citizen Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 1814 Registered: 8-2002
| Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 10:15 am: |
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"he considers the mgt of our town to be bumbling boobs" Lets be clear -- that opinion is clearly NOT held by the vast majority of voters -- or we would not have seen the same indivuals reelected over and over, and the same slate(s) over and over. Also -- lets be VERY clear -- the opinions and discussions on this board represent a *tiny* number of potential voters in SO. Change will NOT happen based on MOL discussions. Change will only happen when the sentiments, philosophies, and opinions discussed among this minority are shared, discussed, communicated with the larger community. Also notice the vast amount of mud slinging going on? OK -- so many of us post here about potential conflicts, wonder about legal opinions, etc. So exactly what bright and shining NEW BIG ideas for the village have been expressed here - moreover, potentially actualized? The Millennium plan is the biggest new idea this village has seen in a long time. TRUMPED! Millennium (and perhaps by default the BOT/Planning Board) have the upper hand as a result! Michael, Joel, and other relatively new posters -- don't think, even for a second, that because a number of us on MOL see the situation for what it is (and, that is a BIG deal!), that that will translate into a ground swell of voter anger - and thus change. Pete |
   
joel dranove
Citizen Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 68 Registered: 1-2006
| Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 10:29 am: |
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I think there is an election every once in a while. Yes, the voters get what they deserve. Now, I believe many want better, much better. They were conned by the Beifus, Shop Rite and SOPAC promises. But, several years later, the truth is in the pudding. jd |
   
I. M. Fuhrer
Citizen Username: Parkingsux
Post Number: 319 Registered: 6-2005

| Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 10:41 am: |
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The fast majority of voters - it hasn't happened yet. Only 25% of eligible voters voted last election. The drive from village hall should be to solicit more voters each and every election to reaffirm their policies. Instead they hush the process and make the election an absurb display of contradictions. This must be addressed because as we have noticed there is a mind set to limit access to power and thwart the broad apectrum of public understanding and support. We are governed by a self conflicted hypocrite who has no credibility to govern anymore. |
   
joel dranove
Citizen Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 72 Registered: 1-2006
| Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 11:49 am: |
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Someone seems to have a list of seniors, who get driven to the polling places. Now, who would have such a list? jd |
   
SO1969
Citizen Username: Bklyn1969
Post Number: 216 Registered: 7-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 9:01 pm: |
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Joel I was not clear. I meant SO didn't miss the boom in housing prices...I was blending redevelopment and housing and I shouldn't have. A visit to Zillow.com or domania.com will confirm that residential in SO did do well over the last 6-7 years. Not having lived here that long, I can't speak to how much better the commercial district could have done, but I don't doubt that it could have done much better and getting that part fixed will be a key component to a continued healthy residential market. |
   
jayjay
Citizen Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 412 Registered: 6-2005
| Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 4:03 pm: |
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Kudo's to Eric DeVaris for taking before the BOT's at last night's meeting the need for a "Vision". Its about time somebody on the BOT's understands that it is the BOT's role to come up with a vision, along with public input. |