Irvington Ave business district

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Author Message   jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 428 Registered: 6-2005 Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 11:21 am:        I think it is ridiculuous to have spent taxpayer money (whether local, county, state or federal) on brick sidewalks and plantings for Irvington Ave when the storefronts look so awful and the businesses themselves are so dire. When are the BOT's going to realize that professional business development personnel are required, not the window dressing of brick sidewalks. If the money spent on brick was used for hiring the right kind of people who know how to work with landlords and recruit the right kind of busineses, it would have been money far better spent. This BOT's thinks that just because it can get some grant money and appease the residents of a section of town into thinking they are doing something for them, that that is all that matters. This kind of thinking has persisted for too long. I recommend that anyone who has not done so, walk or drive along Irvington Ave and just see the state of the businesses there. You would never want a perspective buyer in South Orange to see this, and that is the acid test.   mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2625 Registered: 4-2002 Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 11:41 am:        jayjay: I think you should have attended the numerous meetings that were held regarding Irvington ave (attended by businesses, residents, Main Street and professionals ). I think then maybe you would have some understanding as to some of the issues and why certain things did happen vs some that did not.   susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 1391 Registered: 3-2002 Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 12:24 pm:        Jayjay, so your logic is that because it looks bad, we shouldn't try to improve it? Maybe we need a business developer too, but what is wrong with going after funds for cosmetic improvements? (so that it looks better to that "potential buyer")   Old and Gray Citizen Username: Pastmyprime Post Number: 324 Registered: 2-2005 Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 2:28 pm:        A few of the businesses on Irvington Avenue have been around longer then most.   SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 40 Registered: 2-2006 Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 2:38 pm:        jayjay, Trustee DeVaris recently called for an overall plan of the town (called a vision plan because master plan has been used for something else) and it appears that several other BOT members would agree to one. If they act on his suggestion, the Irvington Ave issues could be incorporated into it, along with many other stymied development projects in town. Aside from supporting this effort, jayjay, completing the Smart Growth survey the town has and may still have on its website could advance your concerns to a constructive outcome. Getting your friends and neighbors to complete it would also help. Then, of course, there is always the elections. But those aren't until the spring of 2007. Hope you vote and try to get others to. South Orange is in a state of neglect because 75% of its electorate does not vote in municipal elections. Lots could be done to improve that, jayjay, if you really want to improve things on Irvington and elsewhere in town.   jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 432 Registered: 6-2005 Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 5:47 pm:        Susan- There are improvements and there are improvements. Cosmetic improvements of walkways ALONE do not work. Just look around the central business district. There must be a professional in business development at the helm. And this BOT has not seen that expense as worth the while. They sit there trying to convince the citizenry that a Tony Smith scultpure will drive people into town. Well, I don't buy it for a minute. Get good viable businesses to locate in town. That's where the effort should be placed. Irvington Ave is a disgrace, as is much of the downtown. And no amount of streetscape will solve that. BTW, the streetscape which was done several years ago in the downtown is already showing its age. Some of the bluestone (which should have never been used for sidewalks to begin with) is scaling and chipped by Spiotta Park. The landscape plants are not well well tended, and certainly not by professionals in the field. I'm sure these costs were never considered. If many of the businesses on Irvington Ave have been there a long time, its a mystery to me how they survive. Who is their customer base? The child care storefront looks like a go-go bar. The restaurants look grimy. The other assorted hairdressers, Christian bookstore, cleaners... all have a faded dismal look. Zayda's probably draws a long established clientel due to lack of competition, but inside it looks pretty bad too. I don't mind, and in fact appreciate, trying to improve the look of a place, but first you need good "bones."   mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2630 Registered: 4-2002 Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 10:19 pm:        Jayjay: Again, you speak without researching the facts first. There were many meetings regarding Irvington avenue and if you made an attempt to read the final report, you might have a better understanding of the problems with Irvington Avenue. You might also understand why the sidealks, curbs and lamps were done first. It sounds like you are suggesting the village should use public money to fix up private businesses. We could hire a professional to give advice to business owners but they still do not have to accept it and they would still have to pay for improvements. Actually, the maintenance costs of the landscaping has been discussed many times and was discussed during the original downtown redevelopment. The plans were done by professionals. I tend to think they made some bad choices, but they were made by professionals. Bluestone, brick sidewalks, etc, were all designed and planned by a professional.   jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 435 Registered: 6-2005 Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 10:30 pm:        Mr Rosner- My understanding is that the professional who designed the downtown streetscapes had never designed that sort of thing before. He was a landscape architect, but with no expertise in that specfic sort of challenge. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think so. Was the project even put out for proposals from any interested party with the appropriate credentials? Its water under the bridge. However, if maintenance was considered, then how is it done? I can tell you that many of the plantings are not properly cared for. Some of the hardscape needs repair. So? As for a professional business development person, it is more than an advice giver. It is their job to know how to recruit, work with landlords, put together incentive recommendations, zoning and code recommendations, etc. I don't know why the BOT is so resistant to this and so willing to spend our money on other less impactful things (eg. the SCULPTURE!)   mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2632 Registered: 4-2002 Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 10:43 pm:        jayjay: I was not on the board when the original downtown streetscapes were done. I had seen pictures at a main street presentation and just don't remember if it was his first project (or if that came up). I do remember people questioning about bricks being used but the bluestone was clearly favored by everyone involved. I wanted to budget for a professional service to maintain the plantings, etc. The majority did not want to go that route. The DPW does do some of the maintenance work but their resources are limited (time, staff, etc). I have been in favor of a DMC with there own executive director (or professional business development person as you put it). It is an annual expense with a budget of over $300,000. I voted in favor of it more than once and I did express my unhappiness with some BOT members for holding it up. It appears that the BOT will now consider a DMC (or whatever we call it) if we implement a SID to help with the funding. In my opinion, since we alread passed a resolution agreeing to start the DMC, it should have been in place already. The statue is a one time cost (capital budget) so it really does not help your argument to use that as an example.   Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 304 Registered: 7-2005 Posted on Tuesday, March 7, 2006 - 1:20 pm:        JayJay...do you actually live near Irvington avenue...or are you just ranting about an area in which you have no stake... Personally I think the sidewalks are a necessary addition...gotta' start somewhere   John Caffrey Citizen Username: Jerseyjack Post Number: 93 Registered: 11-2005 Posted on Tuesday, March 7, 2006 - 7:02 pm:        We have a couple of extra nail salons in Mpl. that we don't really need. Make us an offer and we'll relocate one to Irvington Ave.   jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 443 Registered: 6-2005 Posted on Tuesday, March 7, 2006 - 7:09 pm:        Glock- If the sidewlaks make you feel good, great. I'd feel better with stores I'd like to shop in. I think that's far more important. Its all about priority and how you spend a finite bucket of money.   mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2644 Registered: 4-2002 Posted on Tuesday, March 7, 2006 - 9:59 pm:        jayjay: I would really like to hear a specific suggestion on how you would have used the funds (remember, most of it came from grants that could only be used in certain ways). Total expenditure was about $900,000 of which I think $700,000 came from grants.   jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 445 Registered: 6-2005 Posted on Tuesday, March 7, 2006 - 10:49 pm:        Mr ROsner- That means the town spent $200,000 taxpayer dollars. I would have rather hired a professional business development person. That money would pay about 2 years salary (I would think) and maybe we could have gotten better bang for the buck. We need the basics before we worry about the frills. This notion that because we can grant a grant, we should do it, is not something I necessarily agree with, espeically when it still costs us money and we have bigger fish to fry.   Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 317 Registered: 7-2005 Posted on Tuesday, March 7, 2006 - 11:47 pm:        Considering a lot of people want to pay 300K for a damn statue...id say 200K for sidewalks isnt so bad   mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2649 Registered: 4-2002 Posted on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 - 10:16 am:        jayjay: You did not answer the question. What specific improvement would you spend the money on? Hiring another employee would come from the operating budget (as opposed to a capital expenditure) and would be an ongoing expense. I also take it from your comment that we should not have accepted the grant money and after we spent money on the so-called professional, we would still have to do the sidewalk improvements. As I said previously, try reading the report and then maybe you would have a clue as to the problems and concerns regarding Irvington avenue.   Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2519 Registered: 5-2004 Posted on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 - 10:30 am:        I never would have thought of sidewalks in a business district as "frills." In fact, I'd say sidewalks are about as basic as you can get. If I owned a business there, I'd be much more excited about usable sidewalks than some development professional that the town might hire, espeically given the town's history of hiring experts.   jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 449 Registered: 6-2005 Posted on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 - 12:34 pm:        Business owners on Irvington Ave should consider more the quality of their establishments. If they get excited about new sidewalks and do nothing to improve their own buildings and the merchandise offerings, to me its meaningless. So great, there's a new sidewalk outside the JaJo child care center. What a joke. The building looks like some go-go bar. Or how about Exit Realty, or the candy store or any of the others. And Mr. Rosenr, I understand the difference between capital expenditure and hiring employees. All I'm saying is that money spent needs to be prioritized. I am not in favor necessarily about adding new employees. Nothing says they have to be permanent. There are consultants, I'm sure, in business development who work on a project basis. Or maybe their are other positions in town hall which could be eliminated in favor of a business development professional. I would like to know how towns like RedBank, Westfield, Englewood, etc. were able to revitalize their downtowns. What sort of people they hired and how it came about. I guess, but admit that I do not know for sure, that it wasn't done by improving the sidewalks first.   mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2652 Registered: 4-2002 Posted on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 - 12:59 pm:        jayjay: actually, sidewalk improvements were done in englewood and redbank. Obviously other things were done, but that was a part of it. Just like on Springfield Ave. However, at one point the business owners have to step up as do the propertyowners and make some improvements too. However, this discussion goes back to the fact that you did not read the study or the plans for Irvington Ave.   jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 450 Registered: 6-2005 Posted on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 - 1:05 pm:        Can you point me to the study, please?   mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2653 Registered: 4-2002 Posted on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 - 1:05 pm:        And by the way.... Jayjay, would you suggest propertyowners spend money and then see the stores do improvements only to have the town disrupt their businesses to put sidewalks in afterwards?   jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 451 Registered: 6-2005 Posted on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 - 1:23 pm:        Well, the deed is done. So let's see if improvements follow. In the meantime, can you please point me to the study?   Jersey Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 304 Registered: 1-2006 Posted on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 - 3:24 pm:        Main Street in West Orange had a big renewal over the past 5 years. They offered low or no interest loans to businesses that improved their facade. The town issued a VIP card that gave a discount at the businesses to those who carried it. It was given to all town employees, then the businesses could also give it to customers. There was a noticable difference in the facades very quickly. AND, new businesses opened in that area to get the loan for the facade that they would have had to make anyway. I guess nobody thought of doing a sculpture. J.B.