| Author | Message | ||
     mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2623 Registered: 4-2002 |
Below is the "project estimate costs" that the BOT had. The final costs might be different. For instance, the actual fabrication is $85,000 although the projection showed $90,000. Fabrication: $90,000 Delivery and Installation: $20,000 Site improvements: Demo/Site clearing $40,000 Brick Paving $65,000 Structural Soil $55,000 Furniture, landscaping and irrigation $60,000 Lighting $35,000 Site Design and construction admin. $75,000 Total Cost: $440,000 Grants have been applied for and money is expected to be raised privately. The net cost to the village is expected to be around $250,000. The most recent vote was to award a contract to the fabricator - and not on the statue itself which was some time ago (do not remember the date). | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 430 Registered: 6-2005 |
No costs here for re-installation of the gazebo, if that is planned. Also, what about maintenance? What does the village know about maintaining this sculpture? Is it some kind of metal which requires polishing, graffitti removal (should that happen), etc.? | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 431 Registered: 6-2005 |
ALso, what were the conditions attached to the gift? Could the Village in turn gift this sculpture (which the BOT said is worth $750,000) to some university with an art program (maybe Drew) and derive some sort of tax benefit? I'd rather see that then to have to have the town bear this financial burden. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3462 Registered: 5-2001  |
From whom have grants been applied for? How much money has already been raised privately? At last week's BOT Meeting, Trustee Rosen, Trustee Taylor and Bill Calabrese said that "money was already given to us for the sculpture" from a "Federal Grant". Are you now saying that we have NOT received any money from any grant for this? | ||
| monster Supporter Username: Monster Post Number: 2356 Registered: 7-2002  |
Isn't this just a copy of the original sculpture, and it's a fugly looking sculpture too. Now what they should do is tear down town hall, and rebuild it so that it looks like the sculpture, with windows added of course. | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2624 Registered: 4-2002 |
When the fountain was first installed (before I was on the board), I asked about maintaining a fountain. I was told it was a maintenance free design. Turns out it was not. The fountain clogs all the time, leaves, coins, and garbage had to be cleaned out all the time. The gazebo has a couple of missing slates, bird turd on the bricks under it, etc. Maintaining anything requires money and time. I was told the statue is relatively easy to clean and maintain. I can't imagine it being worse than the fountain. I know of no definite plan to re-install the gazebo. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 145 Registered: 1-2006 |
One "tag up" and then what? Relatively easy to clean, according to those who are paying for it, or those in support, or those who will be paid for it. Is there a guaranty, maintenance free period, or seller will maintain for years? Remember the many tags on the shop-rite wall facing the train tracks, covered up by solid paint strokes now? Will the paint on the metal leave a discoloriation, or other type of mark after solvents are applied, and brushes used on the metal plates? Please don't put your head in the sand on this one. jd | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 146 Registered: 1-2006 |
75 thousand for construction administration begs the questions: admin'ing what, where, and who. jd | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2626 Registered: 4-2002 |
MHD: No money has been received from grants. The short version of their logic was: The village would have like to use a specific grant but instead, in the end, the grant money went towards SOPAC. So, as of now, no grant money. I do not know how much money has been raised privately yet. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3464 Registered: 5-2001 |
Mark,
So, Calabrese, Taylor and Rosen LIED at the BOT Meeting last week. Will you join me in calling for their immediate resignation as the title of "Trustee" is not suitable for them? | ||
| Pizzaz Supporter Username: Pizzaz Post Number: 3263 Registered: 11-2001  |
Is this the true fabrication of the proposed fabrication of the TS sculpture? Someone make this madness stop!  Why won't individual trustees step forward during open public (fabrication) meetings to set the record straight?  Grants have been applied for.. which ones? | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4221 Registered: 1-2004  |
And we NEED this extra tax burden because? Unbelievable... Why is the BOT so against letting the taxpayers VOTE on this? Why is the BOT going out of the way to meet the 'deadlines' of accepting this supposed 'gift?' I would rather see the board direct their attention to doing something about the condition of the Village. A hal million dollar statue isn't going to make up for the wreck of a downtown we have. | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 35 Registered: 2-2006 |
Thank you for posting the information you have received to date, Trustee Rosner. I agree that other unanswered questions that have just been posted here need to be answered. Without answers, it seems likely that the $440,000 does not and cannot include all real costs of acquiring, mounting and maintaining the sculpture. Half a million or more seems likely, but we all need to have these guestimates itemized with realistic projections. The figures you do have are already dated and will be even more so at the time of execution. So even these may increase from the time the projections were made until when the expenditures are made. At present, the conflicting information from several trustees about the costs is extreme and irreconciliable. In another thread, Trustee DeVaris has just indicated that a community block grant of $250,000 was applied to the sculpture. You deny this. The claims by VP Calabrese, other trustees and village staff at the last BOT meeting were still different from Trustee DeVaris'claim and your denial. Clearly, the public cannot possibly know the costs of this sculpture when the trustees, village president and town administration do not know, or, if they do know, for some inexplicable reason are unable to articulate it intelligibly to the public when it asks. Therefore, we all would appreciate any further explanations you or other town officials can offer, Trustee Rosner, about why what you are saying differs so dramatically from what Trustee DeVaris claims and various elected officials and town employees claimed at the last BOT meeting. I also would like to know if the sculpture requires by contract or otherwise, an insurance policy for construction risks or against any other damage? Who is responsible for protecting it from any damage whether from vandals, construction risks, transit accidents or acts of nature? Is the village paying the premium on such an insurance policy? If so, what is the expense for it and what are the details of the policy? If there is no insurance to protect the sculpture from damage, will the taxpayers again provide a blank check guarantee for any damage, under the terms of contractural agreements for the "gift"? What are the replacement costs for the sculpture? Presumably they would be significantly higher than the $500,000+ cost for it initially since we are getting it at such a deal, significantly less than its valuation cost. Or is the claim that we are getting it at such a deal, at a cost so much less than its actual valuation also unreliable? Please help us understand the considerable contradictory information town officials have claimed about the funding for this sculpture. And do let us know any further information you learn from whatever sources you learn them from. Thank you. | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1227 Registered: 10-2004 |
People who know nothing or care nothing of art should shut up. I'm sorry but you anti-art work people are so culturally illiterate it is sad beyond belief. All you care about it saving a few pennies and care about little or nothing else. Short-sighted, little minded people. Sad, just sad. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2491 Registered: 5-2004  |
Alleygater, in your mind, is it not possible to appreciate art, and still be against this expense at this time? | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 37 Registered: 2-2006 |
Alleygater, scroll backwards and read. Anyone who loves art would be imprudent to bankrupt a town for it. I know many artists who are wise enough and humane enough to see this point. Do you wish to drive people from their homes because they cannot afford steeply rising taxes? I hope not. Think again. Don't let town officials force an art and debt choice on you. Better choices, including art and no debt, are possible. | ||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese Post Number: 953 Registered: 7-2004  |
Alley, maybe you and the other art people can go ahead and donate the $500,000 and do all the upkeep. I think that might sway the rest of the town to accept the artwork. But until that time don't force all taxpayers to have to waste their money on worthless piles of garbage. | ||
| arizona Citizen Username: Arizona Post Number: 178 Registered: 2-2004 |
The Tony Smith sculpture will be a great addition to this town. Period. I disagree with our politicians on many issues, but, they got this one right. The value of public art cannot only be measured in dollars spent. Yes, the amount is high but so is the value for now and the future. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3468 Registered: 5-2001 |
Arizona, The problem is that the Politicans of this town initially said this was a "gift". Then, they LIED and said this was being paid for by a Grant. Since the taxpayers of this town are paying real cash for this statue, a replica can be purchased at anytime. However, while the rest of the town looks like downtown Baghdad, taxes are projected to rise 10% this year and the public has been misinformed about the process, this is the wrong project at the wrong time. Period. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4228 Registered: 1-2004 |
Sorry Alley I won't shut up. Can someone answer these questions? Especially since I've asked them before and they have gone unanswered. How long did Tony Smith actually live here? And When was this? Why is he any more important then, Jerome Hines (sp) the Jazz great? I wouldn't feel so strongly if the BOT allowed the residents to VOTE on this. Not including MOL people, I know plenty of people against the statue. Most of the people I spoke to didn't even know about the statue. Talk the BOT into putting this to a vote -then and only then will I shut up about it... | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2496 Registered: 5-2004 |
MHD, as has been explained many times, this is not a replica. As much as I am against having this statue in town, belittling it like that does not help your cause. You may not understand how it is not a replica, but no one in the art world would consider it as such. As for it being a gift, I never got the impression that the "gift" part of it was for anything other than the rights to build one. I can't view the BoT meeting vid at work. Did BC, AT and AR actually say the entire sculpture would be paid for with a grant, or that a grnat would pay for part of the cost? | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3469 Registered: 5-2001 |
Rastro, Watch the Video of the meeting tonight at home and judge for yourself. (not being sarcastic...their words were so twisted I encourage you to judge for yourself) | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2499 Registered: 5-2004 |
Understood. I will. BTW, why are there two videos for the meeting? Is one a continuation of the other? | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3470 Registered: 5-2001 |
Rastro - I don't think so. BTW, it's usually easier to download the file & then play it back so you can rewind/fast forward. The discussion in question begins at the 30:00 minute mark. | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 599 Registered: 5-2004  |
AlleyGator - Do you live in South Orange? I seem to remember from last fall that you are a Maplewood resident. If I recall incorrectly, I apologize in advance. However, if you do not live in S. Orange and pay our taxes, well then...who should zip it? | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1228 Registered: 10-2004 |
Pdg, I am a Maplewood resident, and I still think you are all small minded and unprepared to talk knowledgably about art let alone to make a forward thinking decision to honor someone of high stature that came from your community. Just because I come from another town, I can't point my finger at you and unmask the ridulousness of your words and actions? If you would take a few moments and google this person you would see that this artist is a WORLD RENOWNED ARTIST. The Smithsonian has numerous sculptures of his on display in a few sculpture gardens in our nations capital. All of your pitiful responses just goes to show how little you know, or understand art of this nature. Thank you Rastro for trying to explain to these people the difference between an original and a replica. I doubt HIGHLY they comprehend (or care to understand) this concept. JTA: You can find out the information you are asking very easily. The topic has come up numerous times on MOL and a simple google search will probably answer for you that Tony Smith lived in SO for a good long time and raised his family here. Bets (from MOL) has attested that she knew their family and his kids for many years. And I believe his wife still lives in town. I also have no problem with towns honoring jazz artists and other important artists from our community. Does it have to be an either or? This was just a huge opportunity that dropped into SO's lap. It would be a shame to pass up on it, just because the town caved in to a few VERY VOCAL bottomline thinking close minded nay-sayers. Many of you would see Duchamp's "Fountain" named the most influential modern art work of all time and state it's not art, and throw it away. Do you see the problem here? If I tried to explain how Tony Smith's artwork fit into the timeline of Art History, you wouldn't care. You would still state it is ugly, simplistic, a giant waste of money. What can I say beyond the fact that you have no desire to comprehend art and you can't think beyond the bottom line. This one work of art is NOT pushing your taxes up 10%. I am sure that if you divide the cost of the sculpture up between everyone you will see that it barely ranks among the big ticket items that is in the budget. Honestly, this one work of art has become A SYMBOL of your hatred and anger towards your trustees. What I always find so INTERESTING is how art work this "simple" historically creates a huge reaction in communities. TO ME, that is GREAT ART!!! | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3471 Registered: 5-2001 |
'nough said. Move along. | ||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 1088 Registered: 5-2003 |
Alley's profile says that s/he does indeed live in Maplewood. I do think, Alley, that the amount of money that this so-called piece of art will cost amounts to more than a "few pennies." Even at that, I would not be totally opposed to the hideous thing if only it did not require the additional expenditure required to tear down the gazebo and fountain. Why can the statue not be placed in Spiotta park or in front of Town Hall? And before you accuse me of not being an appreciator of art, I should tell you that I am, in a modest way, a collector of American painting of the mid 20th century. I am also a taxpayer, who resents seeing hardearned money go to pay for something like this statue when the infrastructure of our town is in a state of decay. What, exactly, is this hunk of iron supposed to do for our town? How long did Tony Smith live here, and who cares? How many other deserving artists are currently living in South Orange, and why do we not buy something from each of them? We have been overtaxed and lied to, and now we are accused of not being "art people." I'm a South Orange person. I hate to see the condition of our downtown, and I hate to see our town bankrupted because some "art people" have pushed their agenda past our ineffectual, corrupt trustees. | ||
| arizona Citizen Username: Arizona Post Number: 179 Registered: 2-2004 |
Sorry MHD. I like you, and value your opinion, but you will never convince me that the sculpture shouldn't be here. I certainly agree (who wouldn't) that downtown SO looks horrible. The Tony Smith sculpture is a step in the right direction. | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 434 Registered: 6-2005 |
Lizziecat- I totally agree. Those opposed to this scultpure are being branded anti-art by those in favor of it. I think it is shameful. Even some of the BOT members did that (Jennings, Calabrese, Taylor and DeVaris) all tried to discredit the artistic sensibilities of the citizens who tried to question the financial arrangement, and the priority being assigned this project. Look at the video when you have a chance. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3473 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ok...you are right, Arizona!   BTW, I hear the Titanic is hiring someone to rearrange the deck chairs | ||
| mjc Citizen Username: Mjc Post Number: 1051 Registered: 10-2004 |
Alley, please take a short walking tour, stop by the SO library and view the buckets standing around to catch water from the leaking roof, check out the crumbling condition of the exterior of town hall, consider that unlike Maplewood, SO doesn't even have funds to provide a bulk pickup day for residents. Ask anyone in town about their current taxes and the upcoming tax increase. Then consider whether it's really prudent for the town to buy this artwork at this time, considering both the cost and the ongoing liability for maintenance. If it was your house instead of our town, what would you do first? Fix the roof, pay the bill for trash hauling, or buy a large and expensive piece of art for your yard? Even if you love the art. This is a great project for SO artlovers to take on. Maplewoodians would be welcome, too. Take up a collection, auction some things, host a few fundraisers, write grants, have a blast and be benefactors to the town. I might even contribute. But it is not an appropriate expenditure for the town of SO at this time IMO. | ||
| Crazy_quilter Citizen Username: Crazy_quilter Post Number: 213 Registered: 2-2005 |
If our town wanted to spend money on public art, couldn't we hold a contest and ask for entries? Then we could vote on which art we would most like to buy and live with. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8814 Registered: 4-1997  |
How about this: you work without pay for six months and then we'll have a vote to see whether or not you get paid? | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 600 Registered: 5-2004 |
Or, how about you get interviewed and get ASKED to work after those that would pay your salary have had reasonable questions answered first... | ||
| arizona Citizen Username: Arizona Post Number: 180 Registered: 2-2004 |
MHD: I think you have the scale of Tau incorrect for the proper comparison. At least be fair in your montages. Your view of SO is slightly inaccurate. You depict the view in a few months time perhaps but things aren't quite that bad yet. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4234 Registered: 1-2004 |
Well Alley, my family just took a vote and have all voted the same way. We've decided we will allow you to pay our share of the increased tax this statue will cost. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8819 Registered: 4-1997 |
Requirements for the position: -major name in 20th century modernist art -solo exhibits at major art museums -served apprenticeship with Frank Lloyd Wright -featured on cover of Time Magazine -peers include the likes of Gerhard Richter, Chuck Close, Willem de Kooning, Philip Johnson, Jackson Pollock -South Orange native | ||
| Eric DeVaris Citizen Username: Eric_devaris Post Number: 295 Registered: 2-2003  |
Susan 1014, Here my answers to your questions about the Tony Smith project that you posted in another thread: The $400K cost of the Tony Smith project, includes costs for fabrication, transportation, site clearance, installation, and landscape design and construction. The Village has committed $250K for the project. My understanding (and I could very well be wrong because all this has happened in the distant past before I was on the BoT) as to where the money comes from is this: our application for $250K federal (CDBG) funds for the Tony Smith project was not approved; our application for $250K federal (CDBG) funds for SOPAC and similar art projects was approved; the Village had already issued bonds to pay for its SOPAC obligation. Since SOPAC got the extra CDBG $250K (which was not anticipated when the bonds were issued) the BoT decided to transfer some ($250K) of the SOPAC bonds money to the sculpture project. Apparently all this is legit. I call on Mark to please correct me if I am wrong. Granted, as I said elsewhere, the $250K CDBG money could have been used to reduce our taxes for 2006 by approximately $44 per household ($250,000÷5,600 households). And although to some this one-time taxation of $44 would make a difference in their budget, I believe it a worthwhile sacrifice when it comes to enriching our town with art. The balance needed for the completion and maintenance of the project will be raised by the Lennie Pierro Memorial Arts Foundation. The people involved in fundraising for the project are local members of the Foundation with expertise in public relations and fundraising. They were waiting for the town’s commitment to the project before they start their fundraising activities (no one would give money otherwise). Now they have just started. Are they bound by contract to raise the balance of the money? No. But, in my opinion their enthusiasm, professionalism and self-interest – they all live here - is better than any contract. I have seen first hand the miracles that our Village’s volunteer professionals can perform, and I have faith in their success. I have seen, and still see, hundreds of thousands of dollars saved to the town by the professionals/volunteers of Main Street. Is faith and past experience enough to ensure that they will meet their promises? No. Are we taking a risk? Yes. But if we consider the Tony Smith sculpture as a business investment – not for its enormous artistic value, but for the environment enhancer that will impact the value of our town – then it is worth the risk. Because you have to take risks to succeed in business. This is one risk that does not scare me. In answer to your question on the other thread: “Eric, how many residents have you polled who are not MOL readers or members of the fundraising committee, and who have actually knowledge of the financial aspects of the project?” Over the last 5 years - that's when the project started - I have spoken to more than 100 people all enthusiastic supporters of the project; I've met them in the fundraiser of 2002, in parties around town specifically organized to disseminate information on the project, in meetings of civic organizations, and plain old friends. As soon as the financial aspects of the project were known they were published in the local press. The last article on them was on the 11/10/05 of the "News-Record". I agree with you that there is not enough information forthcoming from the Village. I know that Mark has requested recently that some information be put on the Village’s website. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4235 Registered: 1-2004 |
Well Alley, my family just took a vote and have all voted the same way. We've decided we will allow you to pay our share of the increased tax this statue will cost. We have attempted to determine how long he lived here and hoe long ago. Some of what we've found said he moved here in the mid 50's, then moved to Calif. I also came across information that said he was born here in 1931, then moved 20 years later. If anyone can point me in the direction of the correct information, I'd appreciate it. |
