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mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2668
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 3:30 pm: | 
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By the way, here is a link for the new county hospital center - currently under construction:
http://www.essexdpw.constructware.com/ProjectTeam.asp?PrjID=112877
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jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 467
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 4:13 pm: |
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Mr. Rosner-
I was not suggesting that South Orange build a hospital or that they maintain respirators. What I am suggesting is the need for fiscal priorities. And given the possibility of a pandemic, it would have been interesting to reallocate funds targetted for this scultpure to something with more tangilble benefit for the citizenry. Respirators could have been "donated" to St. Barnabas by the village with the stipulation that they be used for South Orange residents first. Much in the way that the Tony Smith estate attached strings to their donation.
Its a different way of thinking. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 2592
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 4:17 pm: |
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Ar you really serious? "Respirators could have been "donated" to St. Barnabas by the village with the stipulation that they be used for South Orange residents first." I somehow think (and hope) St. B would reject this offer. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2669
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 4:24 pm: |
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jajyay: It would make more sense to make sure the county hospitals are fully staffed and equipped before we donate to a private hospital. We are paying taxes to the county and therefore we have a right to expect services from them.
How many times are you going to use Tony Smith money to justify every pet peeve you have. At some point it gets old. |
jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 468
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 6:57 pm: |
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I guess I'll bring up the Tony Smith example every time I see taxpayer money being loosely spent without any priority list forthcoming from the BOT's first,and without citizen polling on the spending. I can think of a ton of things the village would benefit from more. I agree the respirator issue was probably not feasible, but frankly it is no more outlandish than spending money the village doesn't have on this sculpture. And that is the real point. |
Lewisinsov
Citizen
Username: Lewisinsov
Post Number: 4
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 7:19 pm: |
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Mr. Rosner:
I can understand that you must be getting sick of hearing complaints about the money being used to fund the sculpture.
I think the fundamental issue is not whether the sculpture is ugly or not, nor is it even whether the sculpture is an appropriate item for the Village to purchase at all.
It is a question of priorities and responsibility. Putting the legality of the spending to one side (I have mentioned elsewhere that I don't think that spending the money on the sculpture is legit), there is clearly an opportunity cost to spending the money on a sculpture.
$250K that is spent on sculptures is $250K that is not spent on hospitals, roads, etc. When the $250K is borrowed money, as is the case here, it is not just the $250K that is relevant but also the future $$$$ in debt service. It is not as though the Village is so flushed with money that it can easily afford this largesse.
The Village is in serious financial trouble, and by borrowing from future revenues to fund a sculpture (which is essentially a non-performing asset, despite what some people have suggested), you are taking money away from future pensions and future infrastructure spending.
Maybe I am stating the obvious but:
1. You can't borrow your way out of debt.
2. To get out of debt, you either increase income or decrease expenses.
Frankly, since the BoT do not appear to be decreasing expenses, it is clear that we will have to bail out the Village with higher taxes. So if jayjay is concerned about a significant discretionary expense and the ultimate opportunity cost of that expense he or she has my sympathy. |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 115
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 12:12 pm: |
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It looks like part of the local planning is to kill Canadian Geese. A group call "GeesePeace" (www.GeasePeace.com) is recruiting people and lying about their activities. They use volunteers to kill the birds and claim that they aren't. The county's "Environmental Center" is coordinating the extermination.
Why have a plan when something quick and dirty will do? |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 1420
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 12:30 pm: |
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SOrising,
It's www.geesepeace.com. They don't claim an affiliate anywhere in our neighborhood according to their website. They seem to be a fan of preventing the eggs from hatching. You'll have to find someone other than me to get incensed at the idea of controlling the population of geese in our parks (for reasons that have nothing to do with avian flu). |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 116
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 1:03 pm: |
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Rastro and others, respirators do not a hospital make, nor, as previously noted, is their use restricted to hospitals. Their purchase would be better than borrowing to buy a sculpture for which no one who should know in fact knows the real cost. No planning in one area very likely forebodes no planning in another.
And, e roberts, in this vacuum of leadership, to the extent that SO officials agree with this comment of yours, we are all in real trouble:
“there are plans, but publicly talking about forced quarentines [sic] involving national guard, state, local police and other agencnies [sic] is not what people want to hear and they do not NEED to hear it. so basically so i am telling you, you do not NEED to know, and this feeling of entitlement you are having is greatly misplaced, perhaps you should focus you [sic] efforts on something more productive that is not being handeled [sic] by various levels of the local, county, and state goverment [sic] (NOTICE i did NOT mention FEDERAL at all)”
Informing people only on a “need to know” basis about avian flu is the grandiose fantasy of people who imagine themselves to be counter-terrorist agents, not health-care workers. Ironically (a feat of imagination that one cannot assume among our leaders), a national vulnerability from a biological agent could be fought effectively with public education and information, precisely the opposite response uniformed martinets would enact if they are allowed to do so.
Again, I ask what South Orange’s own plan for dealing with the arrival of avian flu is? It doesn't appear to have one. |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 117
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 1:10 pm: |
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susan1014, there is an article in the NR from last Thursday, front page of the Essex County section that details their local activities.
We do differ about whether this prominent announcement is related to avian flu given that ducks and geese from Canada will likely carry it to the US this spring. One has to at least wonder why local public health plans are not getting equal coverage. (I doubt this article is due to the astute reportage of the NR but think it likely to have been a response to an initiative from the county.) |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 1780
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 2:33 pm: |
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So the village of South Orange is supposed to be able to evacuate all of its residents in the event of a flood (see Hurricane Katrina threads), and now needs to have its own plan for dealing with a bird flu pandemic.
I imagine we should be developing our own ballistic missile shield, too?
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Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 2636
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 3:15 pm: |
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If you come down with some form of the flu, do you call the town to find out what to do, or do you go to your doctor/hospital? |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 1781
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 5:01 pm: |
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You call the town if you want to know when the recyling day is, or you have a question about how high your fence is allowed to be.
Anything more advanced than that, and you should be looking beyond South Orange Village Government. (Actually, even the questions I just named could take you four phone calls and several unreturned voicemails to solve.) |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 118
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 8:55 am: |
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Well, cmontyburns, glad to see you think the city of New Orleans should have done nothing during Katrina. That's about what it did do, or, more accurately, didn't. I think most people would disagree with you on this point, however.
Rastro, again, ideally, neither either or. |
Elizabeth
Citizen
Username: Momof4peepers
Post Number: 51
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 9:41 am: |
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I admit to originally reading your post and wondering what the fuss was about. We're due for a flu pandemic, we've been due for one for several years. We've got the West Nile virus (which received the same hype) and that so far has failed to produce the feared pandemic.
And to a certain point, I wonder WHAT you're looking for South Orange government to do? WHAT kind of "plan" do you want them to have in place? you want to know who is making the difficult decisions as to who receives the (limited) vaccine once it's developed? whether or not S. Orange has enough coronors (not spelled right) to certify the dead? And body bags to quarantine them? And ambulances to transport the truly ill to hospitals? where you would go in a well-ventilated area to receive said vaccine? how the city would control the mass chaos of residents trying to get said vaccine?
Were you here after 9/11/01 and the related anthrax scares? How did the state/local governments handle the demand for Cipro? I suspect what you saw then is what you coud expect to see again.
And while I share your curiosity as to the answers to these questions, I also am reminded of the scene in "Men in Black" where Will Smith realizes we're living among aliens, and he demands that the citizens be informed, told how to react to them, etc. and Tommy Lee Jones says something along the lines of "individuals are smart, but people are stupid, panicy, and over-react".
Do you REALLY want to know what the plan is? or do you just want to have a say in the fact that one is being developed? |
jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 493
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 10:16 am: |
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Elizabeth-
I agree with SOrising that we should know more than we do. A prior post by e roberts takes the position that citizens should be kept in the dark. That is old school thinking, and frankly, insulting. We should know what sort of plans towns are constructing and if we, in South Orange, will have the resources and personnel to deal with a potential pandemic. It is not to instill panic, but rather to muster the resources of ALL CITIZENS should that be required. Our well being cannot be entrusted to the elected officials alone. We have seen that large scale distasters are beyond their capability. We need to work as a group in a time of crises, but we can't do that if we are given no information. |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 1422
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 10:41 am: |
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SORising, your comparisons to N. Orleans are, dare I say it, silly.
New Orleans is in a unique situation that makes it unusually prone to a certain kind of disaster, so needs specific planning for that disaster, above and beyond the federal govenments general planning for hurricanes.
South Orange has exactly the same level of exposure to avian flu as other small towns in America, and thus needs only very limited local-specific planning, mostly related to liason duties and general disaster response skills.
Of course we need town planning about how to deal with disasters, in terms of response team, communications, etc. However, I doubt that we need detailed and fully implemented plans for each of dozens of possible disasters (avian flu, major storm/hurricane, wildfire in the reservation, train wreck, airplane crash, terrorist attack on NJ's cargo terminals or chemical plants, earthquake , etc.).
We probably do need some basic modules of planning. What do we do about emergency shelters if part of town had to be evacuated? How do we communicate with our population in the event of a disaster? How would we react to a large scale terrorist disaster that might raise questions of general evacuation vs. hunkering down? How do we ensure having the right public safety response if quarantine/medical triage/decontamination is needed? We should think about these as part of a generalized emergency response plan, but I can't see the need to spend extensive town resources on creating dozens of detailed plans against every possible disaster. (actually, it sounds like a great distraction from the work of sane budgeting and day-to-day service provision).
I'm not for secrecy in planning, but I'm also not convinced that a large investment in redundant planning is needed. |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 1782
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 12:36 pm: |
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"Well, cmontyburns, glad to see you think the city of New Orleans should have done nothing during Katrina."
For the record:
Population of South Orange: 17,000
Population of New Orleans: 1.2 million
Separately, I've long been bothered by the fact that South Orange doesn't have its own stock exchange. What would happen if terrorists bombed the NYSE? |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 122
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 1:11 pm: |
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Okay, here is how the arrival of avian flu in South Orange may be like Katrina’s arrival in New Orleans. Each town had/has ample warning and chose/is choosing to ignore it. Each town expected other levels of governments to do its work for it, to take care of its residents, etc., to disastrous consequences. SO, like NO, may be faced with various kinds of break downs of other levels of government and be left to its own devices. (For myself, I have little confidence in Essex County government and would not entrust my welfare to it.) SO already appears to be presaging New Orleans’ “blame the other government” circus that occurred in the aftermath of Katrina by opting out of its own, particular, responsibilities now. We know, better than ever from events surrounding the TS sculpture, that SO does not plan ahead well, if at all. Silly? What is silly is to forget why an analogy is different from an identity or a difference. (The similarities of objects being compared in an analogy are what make it an analogy while other attributes of the objects are different.)
To the extent that you have responded to the analogy between SO and NO, susan1014, your questions following your statement, “We probably do need some basic modules of planning,” are the kinds of questions I would like to know about SO’s response to the arrival of avian flu. It is difficult enough to get any substantive answers about this particular issue. Therefore, I am not asking about responses to terrorists or to anything else besides it. And, just so you’ll know, since you again seem to impute to me a position I don't hold, I’m not for redundancy either. Who is? Why chase hobgoblins with real threats at hand? |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3590
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 1:13 pm: |
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Not to worry...to stop Bird Flu, George Bush has just bombed:
- the Canary Islands
- Crow-atia
- Turkey
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SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 123
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 1:29 pm: |
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Elizabeth, without being morbid, it is hard to know what you don’t know, isn’t it? I think a good antidote for pubic panic about avian flu is knowledge. You may want to look at the discussion of this same topic on the Maplewood bulletin board. It is somewhat better in certain respects than the discussion here. There is a reference there to the C-SPAN report by Laurie Garrett. If you go to C-SPAN’s website, and search for Garrett, you can find a video link to her interview. You might find it interesting in light of your comments.
One important comment from the Maplewood thread is this,
“It is true that New Jersey and Essex County have yet to finalize the kind of plan that would be needed IF and WHEN avian flu becomes a human disease transmissable between humans.” |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 1427
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 7:02 pm: |
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SOrising, if you aren't for redundancy, I'm glad to hear it. Some of your suggestions gave a very different impression.
I'm all for good emergency planning, but I actually think it is far more important that we have SO specific plans for a terrorist strike on the port of Newark or certain chemical plants than it is for avian flu. |
e roberts
Citizen
Username: Wnwd00
Post Number: 374
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 9:01 pm: |
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sorising,
what it comes down to, is that no emergency manager in their right mind would release any aspect of their mass disater plan to anyone.
i do agree with susan that there does need to be the basics of planning done in south orange in regards to communication, shelter sites, and continuity of government. A much more productive use of this thread would be to find out if south orange:
-has a fully operation emergency operations center? (the answer is no, the reason i have no idea)
- is there a backup communication center (a facility outside of the police department building) the short answer is nothing even close.
-are shelter site identified and with all necessary preplanning done? (well sort of, sites are identified but the length of time and actual process of activating them remains a question)
-is there a reverse 911 or some other system that allows the town to communicate with residents in case of emergency (not right now)
so lets focus of things that can be effected on the local level, not the type of "doomsday scenario plan" that you seem to be looking for sorising; I can tell you it is there (on many levels, and you do not want to know anything about it. |
Lewisinsov
Citizen
Username: Lewisinsov
Post Number: 8
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 11:47 pm: |
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Wot me worry about flu? We have statue. Statue make everything ok. |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 125
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 10:45 am: |
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e roberts, you are exactly the kind of person who should not be involved in domestic emergency planning, from most of your comments here which tend to dictate to people what they should and should not know, ask or seek; which muddy the waters with red herrings ("doomsday scenario plans") designed to frighten people and generally operate from a military model appropriate for overseas campaigns.
The topic I am asking about is a domestic public health issue, not a battle command and control one. While it is of course true that communication is vital, and as you have contructively pointed out, SO seems to lack even this, command and control communications in military campaigns or even in terrorist attacks are different than the kind of communications required for public health issues, in most cases. A great deal of preventive care communication could be conducted, for example. Yet even this is not being done with regard to avian flu in SO.
I suggest you take your doomsday scenario ruminations and apply them in battle reenactments, military exercises, or, better yet, you might find a real use for them in Iraq. |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 126
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 11:10 am: |
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e roberts, you are exactly the kind of person who should not be involved in domestic emergency planning, from most of your comments here which tend to dictate to people what they should and should not know, ask or seek; which muddy the waters with red herrings ("doomsday scenario plans") designed to frighten people and generally operate from a military model appropriate for overseas campaigns.
The topic I am asking about is a domestic public health issue, not a battle command and control one. While it is of course true that communication is vital, and as you have contructively pointed out, SO seems to lack even this, command and control communications in military campaigns or even in terrorist attacks are different than the kind of communications required for public health issues, in most cases. A great deal of preventive care communication could be conducted, for example. Yet even this is not being done with regard to avian flu in SO.
I suggest you take your doomsday scenario ruminations and apply them in battle reenactments, military exercises, or, better yet, you might find a real use for them in Iraq. |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 127
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 11:12 am: |
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(sorry for the repetition, e roberts; once is enough; had to do something inbetween entries) |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2689
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 11:25 am: |
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Sorisiing: Here is the link to the federal website - http://www.pandemicflu.gov/plan/tab1.html
Lots of information and let's you know what the federal government is doing along with each state. Note each state was given money, in the case of N.J. it was over $2,600,000. S. Orange was not given one cent, but information was sent to each town's health officer. There is also a section for individuals who want to learn more.
No vaccine is currently licensed and there is no antibiotic.
So tell me, exactly what do you expect S. Orange to do. Property taxes and municipal government are supposed to deal with local issues. Federal and state income taxes are supposed to fund just the type of information and responses you are looking to find.
I understand the concerns, but I think you should be addressing these to the state and the federal government. This is not blaming or shifting - that is actually what you are trying to do. You want the town of S. Orange (and other towns I guess) to do the job others are paid to do. By the way, which small town (under 25,000 in population) has dealt with this concern to your level of satisfaction. I would be curious to see so maybe we can learn how and what they have done.
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MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3609
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 11:31 am: |
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Quote:which small town (under 25,000 in population) has dealt with this concern to your level of satisfaction
...then again, which small town (under 25,000 in population) spends close to $500,000 of tax dollars on art?  |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2690
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 11:38 am: |
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MHD: not sure... which one? |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3610
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 11:41 am: |
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oh yeah, I forgot...the Trustees of this town are "misinformed" and don't know where our tax dollars are going.  |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 129
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 11:55 am: |
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Trustee Rosner, for starters, listen to the C-SPAN report. It is referenced in the Maplewood discussion of avian flu. You can find a video link on the C-SPAN website. |
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