| Author | Message | ||
     mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2627 Registered: 4-2002 |
Eric: The $250,000 is actually less than $44 per household because you left out the commercial tax base in you calculation. Your explanation is probably technically correct about the grant and the transferring of the funds. However, the bottom line is a grant was not given for the statue and we still need the $250,000 for SOPAC. In the long run, I think the statue is an asset to the downtown. Also, I have found most people seem to be enthusiastic about the statue and about SOPAC. MHD: I seem to remember you welcomed the views of our neighbors in Maplewood when they agreed with your feelings on another issue.  | ||
| Eric DeVaris Citizen Username: Eric_devaris Post Number: 297 Registered: 2-2003  |
MHD, My answers to the questions that you posted on another thread regarding the Tony Smith Project: “Eric - can you confirm that YOU are in fact a member of the Committee responsible for the fundraising on the statue? Can you also comment on whether any of the Committee members contributed to your campaign last year?” No member of the Fundraising Committee of the Tony Smith Project, or of the Board of Trustees or the Advisory Committee of the Lennie Pierro Memorial Arts Foundation made any contributions (in money or in kind) to my campaign in 2005. I can firmly confirm I am in fact not a member of the Committee responsible for the fundraising for the Tony Smith Project. My name is listed in the stationery of the Lennie Pierro Memorial Arts Foundation under the Advisory Committee listing. As such I do not have to participate in any meetings (and I don’t), and I do not receive any compensation. I just lend my name to the listing together with 28 other S.O. residents. In June 2004 I hosted a coffee clutch for the Project, at my home, where I invited 8 of my friends. The Fundraising Committee made a presentation to them showing them the model of the sculpture. Other than the above I have no involvement with the Project except for the occasional person-to-person chance encounter with some of the members of the Foundation. I hope I answered your questions satisfactorily. | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1485 Registered: 3-2003 |
Whether one is in favor of the statue or not, I think the BOT, or at least some members of the BOT, did a great disservice to the residents of the community by telling them that it was not going to cost the taxpayers anything. Allan Rosen - this was your spin. And other members of the BOT should be ashamed of themselves(although I know they have no shame) for insulting a resident who dares asks questions, and then lying to him. | ||
| Eric DeVaris Citizen Username: Eric_devaris Post Number: 298 Registered: 2-2003 |
JTA, I repeat here the answer I gave you on another thread, since you and others are repeating the same question here, and this is a more appropriate thread to discuss the sculpture: Your question: "Eric- I have a specific question. Why won't the BOT allow the residents to vote on whether or not we want this 'gift?" Because the residents never asked. I think that there are two ways for putting a question on the ballot: a) the public can put a question on the ballot if a petition is presented to the BoT signed by 2,000 residents (someone please correct me if I am wrong on this one); or b) if the majority of the BoT votes to put it on the ballot. Now, if your question is why doesn’t the BoT put the question on the ballot, I can only answer for myself: I believe that by electing the members of the BoT the residents entrust them to make all important decisions for the community. If a majority of the residents disagree with a BoT decision, there are venues to communicate their disagreement and put pressure on the BoT to reconsider their decision. I don’t feel there is enough public pressure against the sculpture to justify putting it in referendum. On the other hand, I feel a great pressure from residents who wrote letters to the press, who came in scores to a BoT meetings, who attended a successful fundraiser in great numbers, who are in support of the project. The only place I feel pressure against the project is here on MOL. However the MOL anti-Tony-Smith faction is by no means the majority of the S.O. residents. I respect the opinion of those who oppose the sculpture here on MOL. That is why I try to respond to as many non-hostile, non-sarcastic, non-truth-distorting questions as I can. Some of the comments here are valid educated comments. But I have heard also a lot of questions/comments from a larger segment of our community, from all walks of life, who are supportive of the project. These people are exposed to the same information that people on this board are exposed. So, as far as I am concerned, on this issue I am serving the interests of the majority of the residents. I hope JTA that I answered your question. | ||
| John Glick Citizen Username: Jgg Post Number: 16 Registered: 12-2005 |
All of this complaining over what Eric claims amounts to $44 per household, and presumably a little more if the fundraising efforts do not obtain the balance of necessary funds. Sounds like the energy being expended to complain about the sculpture should be saved to complain and scrutinize at every turn the next decision that the BOT makes. I guess when no progress is made on the various projects in town such as Beifus, Shop Rite and Valley Street, that you would hope would ultimately improve the Village, we will have our opportunity to remove the members of this board, some as early as next year, and bring in some new people who you would think will be able to move things along in a more efficient manner than the current regime. | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 115 Registered: 12-2004 |
Eric: what do you know about the spider statue in front of Dunkin Donuts? Who paid for it? How much did it cost? How was it chosen? What do you think about it from an artistic point of view? Does it have any special significance to our community? | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8820 Registered: 4-1997  |
Elaine, Obviously the spider is symbolic of the venom the Essex county political machine is injecting into South Orange. The four legs show that it is a mutant spider to differentiate it from real spiders, which are enterprising and get things done rather quickly, like building projects. | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 436 Registered: 6-2005 |
John Glick- Its not the $44 dollars at issue. Its about the way this board operates. This sculpture is a very visible embodiment of the callous disregard for the citizens of the town of how financial decisions are made, the lack of prioritization of capital improvement projects, and the arrogance of many of the board members. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4236 Registered: 1-2004  |
Eric- Thank you for your response. I find one of your comments, well let's just say if you really believe in the comment below, why is our Village such a mess? I believe that by electing the members of the BoT the residents entrust them to make all important decisions for the community. Elaine- There is a spider statue in front of Dunkin Doughnuts? I have to take a look tomorrow when I drive by there. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3476 Registered: 5-2001  |
Mark, Actually, The "$250,000" is actually quite a bit more than $44 per household, because above Eric says this came from "Bonds money", which obviously will have interest payments. In addition, Calabrese has said the taxpayers will cover any cost overruns or fundraising shortfalls, which puts into question the true impact on the taxpayers. However, like jayjay & spitz stated above, this is symbolic of the callous disregard shown to residents by many members of the BOT who would stoop to LIE about this. BTW...cute comment Mark about Maplewood. However, arguments about the Quarry were relevant to Maplewood because additional schoolkids would impact the taxpayers of Maplewood. A statue in South Orange has no impact on the taxpayers of Maplewood | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 1393 Registered: 3-2002 |
Eric, thank you for continuing to answer our tough questions with grace and detail. If the BOT overall had handled this acquisition with honesty and clarity, I would be an overall supporter. I don't love Smith's style overall, and am firmly convinced that the siting is not the best one for seeing the artistic power of the sculpture (although it will maximize eyeballs). However, Smith is probably the most important visual artist to be strongly associated with South Orange, and I'm in agreement that acquiring a work of his is a lovely idea for the town (and worth the $44 per household, if we can cap it there!). I'm also eager to see someone put together a tribute to our local musical artists and actors for an appropriate venue (perhaps display cases in SOPAC, tributes at Giants of Jazz, etc.). However, I'm livid at the way that the BOT has handled this. I think the discussion of the finances has been misleading, and the "business investment" potential of the statue seriously overstated (even by you Eric). I also think that it is disingenuous to say that the town is firmly behind this because people who choose to go to fundraisers and information sessions are supporters of the project -- they (and your friends) may be as much of a biased sample as the MOL crowd. The truth is likely somewhere in between. Having said that, the town elected you and the other trustees. You have made the decision, and hopefully your faith in the fundraising is not misplaced (although it may be harder to raise funds once the statue is in place and the goal of fundraising is to pay back the town coffers! Same mistake SOPAC is making -- not doing more hardcore fundraising while construction is still ongoing). Down the line, I expect to be having interesting discussions with my daughter about what is art, how to understand it, etc, as we walk by this work, and that is likely a good thing. However, at this point, the whole affair leaves an ugly taste in my mouth. So, in summary, I can be a fan of the idea of public art by native sons/daughters, and still think that this has been badly mismanaged. Although the end may be good, the means matter too, and South Orange seems to be rather poor at getting good deals on projects of all sorts. | ||
| Eric DeVaris Citizen Username: Eric_devaris Post Number: 300 Registered: 2-2003 |
Elaine, I already answered these questions at the "Trustee Meeting Agenda Questions" thread, where you first asked them. Here is a copy of my response: Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 10:16 pm: Elaine, My answer to your question regarding the artwork in front of Dunking Donuts: “Eric, I am curious what you think about it? Is it beautiful? Is it sophisticated? Is it worth what we paid for it?” I don’t know what we paid for it. It was installed long before I was elected trustee. I don’t like that piece as a public art. It may satisfy the taste of some homeowner who would place it in a private garden. It falls in the same category of another public art piece we treasure: the big orange on a lamp-post in front of the Middle School. It appears that someone in our government thought of both those pieces as public art, worthy of representing our community, and satisfying the tastes of our residents. In my opinion they are not. | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1231 Registered: 10-2004 |
Please also consider that $44 will be used over the span of VERY VERY many years. That one time fee (yes yes yes everything has maintenance associated but this is a HUGE STEEL SCULPTURE FOLKS, it's LITERALLY INDUSTRIAL STRENGTH) and will last very VERY VERY MANY YEARS, so that $44 will go a very long way. Please stop being so short sighted. If you are going to be this passionate about art, then please educate yourself about art. This artist LITERALLY is world caliber and he worked for a SUBSTANTIAL amount of time in SO and he raised his family in this community. Show some respect for your community and educate yourselves if your going to open your mouths and spout off your opinions on a topic that you don't understand. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4237 Registered: 1-2004 |
Alley- According to what someone else posted from the Gaslight he only lived here eight years. | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1232 Registered: 10-2004 |
JTA, I am sort of annoyed that I did all of the work to find the original post by Bets about Tony Smith only to find that you were involved in that discussion from the start. The point being, you are fully educated on this matter and yet are playing sorta dumb asking questions you know the answers too already. IN CASE someone else is interested in knowing that Tony Smith in fact does have a connection to this town, feel free to read the original Tony Smith thread here. I really didn't want to have to do the research for you that you could have done yourself. When you proved you were incapable of finding the information, I got off my ••• and started to research it, only for you to suddenly find what you were looking for. Thanks. I suppose the point for you remains the same right? It's ugly. I don't want to spend the money on it, 'cause my taxes are high enough already. He only lived here a short period of time. Why don't we spend the money on some artists work that I can understand because minimalism is too complex and offensive for me to understand. (Yes Dave I know Tony Smith wasn't a Minimalist feel free to educate me again). | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 1395 Registered: 3-2002 |
So we can be sure that at least Starbucks and Village diner will profit from AlleyGater's increased patronage once this statue is in place? | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3480 Registered: 5-2001 |
Dave, Dave, Dave, If you are going to put "Learn more" on the subject of this thread, you can at least link to other similar threads from MOL over the past year or websites regarding "Lying Politicians" to present a BALANCED view as the Moderator. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8822 Registered: 4-1997 |
Rest assured there will be a lot more than a few little links for that.  | ||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 1089 Registered: 5-2003 |
Bets' reasons for the acquisition of the sculpture are that Tony Smith was a "great guy," he was her neighbor, his daughters babysat for her, and he was a friend of Jackson Pollack. These are not reasons enough to justify the the acquisition of this sculpture, at least not in my opinion. | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 43 Registered: 2-2006 |
Eric, Here are a few points about your entry of March 6 at 9:35 PM. As we’ve already seen, the costs of the sculpture almost certainly exceed $440,000 and exceed it significantly. They probably will exceed $500,000. So it is misleading for you to continue to suggest the sculpture costs only $400,000. Second, by your latest account, the money the village “committed” was bond money. This is worse than paying for it with tax revenues since it would mean we actually borrowed money, actually went further into debt, to pay an indeterminate amount that shows every sign of exceeding $500,000. If we use $250,000 of bond money to pay for a fraction of the costs of the sculpture, we pay interest on this borrowed money so it is more than $250,000 even though only $250,000 of the sculpture’s costs are paid by it. If even the BOT believed the Beifus site would start producing revenue anytime soon or the ShopRite site will have a start date in any reasonable length of time, it might be different. Don’t you see that the town is imperiled by so much debt, so many unrealistic projects, so many unreliable and illusory income projections? It is, in short, a very bad time to assume even greater debt because there are so many risky projects already throughout the town that have threatened it for years with no end in sight. What if there were a sudden economic downturn? What would happen to the town then? Third, it is nice you like the people who are fundraising for this sculpture. People who disagree with your judgement about whether the town should go into debt to purchase the sculpture also wish them well. But the fact that across several years they have only raised about $25,000 for over half a million price tag makes others reasonably skeptical that they will raise significant amounts of money. And since we had to borrow a quarter of a million for it, people do not want the town to go still further into debt guaranteeing the remainder of the cost. Yet the BOT has done precisely this in guaranteeing any amount that cannot be raised privately. Is there no limit to the debt service the BOT will push onto the town? Or no end to the illusions of grandeur on the part of its leadership while their actions in fact endanger the welfare of the town? Finally, and most importantly, if you really believe there is not enough information coming from the village about the sculpture’s funding, why oh why, did you not obtain that information before making a decision to ransom the town for this project of over half a million dollars? Would you truly manage your own household in the way you have managed the economic affairs of the town? (Ironically, perhaps you know better than many that the etymology of “economy” includes the meaning for household in ancient Greek, such that “economic pursuits” would include the proper management of household affairs. Is there not wisdom in your past?) | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8824 Registered: 4-1997 |
What I want to know is: Why does dirt cost $55,000? The actual construction is $90,000. How can dirt cost more than half of actual construction????? ?????????? ?????????? Who owns the dirt farm? How does one become a dirt farmer? | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2504 Registered: 5-2004  |
MHD, I just listened to the BoT discussion you initiated on the 27th. To be honest, I'm a little surprised at how you're characterizing things. I am no fan of BoT or of erecting the sculpture right now, on that site. And I do agree the BoT is playing with words. but the reality from what I get from Calabrese and Taylor is that the grant money was intended (by the town) to be for the sculpture, but they weren't ready to spend the money. So they used SOPAC as a bank, and lent SOPAC the money. SOPAC will repay the money when it is time to build the sculpture. So technically, the grant was not used for Tau. But in reality, they are saying the town had always intended to use it for that. Now, whether the town could simply use the money for SOPAC and say "to hell with Tau" is one thing. But I don't think they were lying. It's just a different interpretation. Mark is saying that the grant was used for something else. Bill and Art are saying, yes it was used for something else, but we always intended to use it for Tau, and just "stored" the money at SOPAC. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2505 Registered: 5-2004 |
Though I do think it was pretty rude of Bill to say that you would not live here in 20 years, implying that you're just a transient here, and he's a "real" South Orangite. | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1235 Registered: 10-2004 |
Lizzie, my point of finding Bets' posts was NOT because of the reasons you stated but rather to counter a popular argument in this thread that Tony Smith didn't live here very long and wasn't a member of the SO Community. Those posts (IMO) show that he was. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4246 Registered: 1-2004 |
Alley I do know he lived here BUT according to Google searches either he was born here in 1931 and moved when he went to college. Or he moved here in the 1950's and left 20 years later. And then there is information he lived here eight years. I'm just asking for someone to clarify this. There are a lot of famous people with connections to the town. Why is one more important then the other? When our community is in the condition it is, I think it's irresponsible of our BOT to spend money for a statue. What about the library? Or the fire station? They should come first. A few years ago there was a thread about famous people with ties to South Orange. Timothy Smith wasn't mentioned. I don't think as many people are familiar with he is as thought by some. I think it's wrong after spend the money that was spent making Sloan Street as nice as it is; the gazebo and fountain are going to be removed. | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1238 Registered: 10-2004 |
The total number of years doesn't affect my opinion on whether this would be a HUGE asset to the town. The fact that alot of people know he lived here doesn't affect my opinion either. The fact that people (including yourself) don't know who he is or his importance in the art world doesn't surprise me or affect my opinion either. But... please remember as the cops like to say, ignorance is not a proper defense. | ||
| composerjohn Citizen Username: Composerjohn Post Number: 735 Registered: 8-2004  |
I don't think people are saying that Tony Smith (not Timothy!) is more important or famous than others. We honor musicians by playing their music; we honor actors by watching their films/plays/etc.; we honor visual artists by displaying their work. I highly respect and admire Smith's work, and I'm excited it's going to be displayed in our town. Maybe when SOPAC opens they can host a film series highlighting current and former residents. Maybe they can also host tribute concerts to musicians. EDIT: like other people on MOL, I'm torn about the purchase of the sculpture. Given the current state of our downtown, I'm not sure this is the best time to purchase the piece. It's my understanding that we are getting a "good deal", a discount of sorts. Is this true? And could we have waited a few years and still received the deal? | ||
| bets Supporter Username: Bets Post Number: 22803 Registered: 6-2001  |
Gee, Lizzie, get up on the wrong side of the world yesterday? I support the statue for all the reasons you listed. I also support it because I think it will be really cool. I've seen a few of his works and they inspire. JTA, Tony was born on Stanley Road in South Orange in 1912 and was still living there when we moved from Stanley to Ralston in 1972. I have no idea where you're getting your information (possibly the British artist named Tony Smith???). | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 301 Registered: 7-2005  |
This whole idea is ridiculous...the town doesn't need this. | ||
| bets Supporter Username: Bets Post Number: 22804 Registered: 6-2001 |
Let me expand on my post above regarding the Board of Trustees playing fast and loose with taxpayer dollars. Why is there no budget for SOPAC when clearly materials have been purchased and contractors paid? Why is Village Hall allowed to rot without any visible plans to rehab? Why isn't the village ever held accountable? I don't know the answers, but I would be impressed if they actually FINISHED something they started. | ||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 467 Registered: 1-2004  |
I just received a copy of the letter written by Lippincott (fabricator) that acts as the agreement to fabricate the Tony Smith Tau sculpture "14 foot high painted steel work" (I would assume that the Purchase Order will act as the contract between the parties). It states that the estimated cost will be $85,000 taking six months to fabricate. An additional $14,000 +- 10% to ship and install on a "foundation prepared by others." It also assumes no storage charges since "installation can follow construction in a timely manner." | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1239 Registered: 10-2004 |
ComposerJohn, the work of art (which is the plans to build the sculpture) is free. It is up to the town to pay for the fabrication of the work of art, which is pretty inexpensive. If you look at the first post of this thread by mrosner you will see that it is the other things associated with the sculpture that are expensive. As Dave our cheeky moderator pointed out -- dirt is VERY VERY expensive). I don't know the details regarding the decisions about the timining of when it has to be built or the choice of locations. But any work of art that gets people feeling passionate (on ANY level) is a good thing and is good art, IMO. Art isn't meant to be ignored. And this sculpture will NOT BE ABLE TO BE IGNORED. I love it. | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1240 Registered: 10-2004 |
Glock 17 a lot of things you think this town needs other people disagree with. Your opinion is NOT the only opinion. Just because you feel a certain way doesn't mean that you are right and everyone else is wrong. I'm sorry. Do you really think the world works that way? Wake up! As a bad example of this, take a look at Libertarian (who posts ad nauseum) about how our taxes shouldn't go into paying for the education of other people's kids. I assume that Libertarian doesn't have kids (I could be wrong, feel free to correct me Libby) and so he doesn't feel that he should have to pay to send YOUR kids to school. Do you agree with his opinion? Is he right? Well neither are you. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3485 Registered: 5-2001 |
Alley, Just curious...have you made a financial contribution to the Fundraising Committee for this statue? They are still aver $130,000 short of their fundraising goal. If you "love it", I hope you "pony up". | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 441 Registered: 6-2005 |
The fact that this is a "PAINTED steel work" suggests to me that there will be maintenance involved in keeping up its original appearance. And I also assume, that it being such an esteemed piece, that that does not mean slapping a coat of paint on it every couple of years. Judging by how the streetscape and landscaping in town has been maintained, as well as the public buildings, I think those Tony Smith afficionados should wonder about whether this will wind up being a tribute to him or a slap in the face to him. | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1241 Registered: 10-2004 |
MHD, I gladly would contribute, but I am not wealthy, so I'm not sure if my $20 would go that far. I'm also not sure if I'm catching your point though. I don't have any problem with the decisions that your BOT is making. I don't hate them for WASTING YOUR MONEY. Once again, I really feel that this sculpture is just a symbol for your hatred toward your trustees. The same whiny bitches who complain about the BOT are the same whiny bitches complaining about this sculpture. I mean please it really is that straight-forward from where I'm standing. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8827 Registered: 4-1997 |
Topsoil is about $20/ton delivered. For $55,000 we can buy 3000 tons of topsoil (figuring out a 10% bulk discount). Where will it go? It's not going to fit in the sculpture location. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3486 Registered: 5-2001 |
That is the funniest post I have ever read. You are all for spending OUR money, but you won't contribute yourself. You know the old expression - Put Up or Shut Up | ||
| peteglider Citizen Username: Peteglider Post Number: 1844 Registered: 8-2002 |
Dave -- Given the bizarre accounting heard recently (the sculpture grants somehow going to SOPAC) -- here's a scenario -- ** Village funds the sculpture -- including 3000 tons of top soil. ** The soil is "transferred" to SOPAC. ** Then its "transferred" to the Sayid site, who now has new fill for his basement (and can remove the SOPAC fill) OPTIONAL ** Any extra soil is diverted to the Beifus site, since its really just a big hole in the ground. Pete | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1242 Registered: 10-2004 |
MHD, I think that it is funny that you think it is funny. Where did I say I wouldn't contribute? I in fact said the opposite. Are you a mental midget? I'm not wealthy? Is that funny? The amount that you are being asked to contribute is less than $40. I can pony up $40 if you would like. I'm not sure what you are on about. Wouldn't it be more insulting if I was wealthy and I wanted to spend your money but I was unwilling to contribute money? I wouldn't have ANY PROBLEM WHATSOEVER with Maplewood spending money on a Tony Smith sculpture. In fact I would think it was the BEST $40 my taxes were ever spent on. |
