| Author | Message | ||
     bets Supporter Username: Bets Post Number: 22808 Registered: 6-2001  |
Whoa, that was fast! MHD offered this self-portrait of Kiki Smith in betwixt my post and Mark's: http://www.bernhardknaus-art.com/bilder/Smith_Self.html, but the post with an image of the painting was deleted. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8830 Registered: 4-1997  |
(Mark's post relates to a post that was deleted (of a nude photograph)) | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2647 Registered: 4-2002 |
MHD will just have to remember to post those kind of pics after Dave goes to sleep.  | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8831 Registered: 4-1997 |
Links are fine. Posts are a no-no. (ISP contract thingy) And, as usual, everything is up to our discretion.  | ||
| vermontgolfer Supporter Username: Vermontgolfer Post Number: 352 Registered: 12-2002 |
OK, I've now read weeks of this and feel I need to put my two cents in. First, I never heard of Tony Smith before all this about a sculpture. Now, I don't profess to be a lover or even someone who appreciates art, though I have had the good fortune to visit many of the fine museums in Europe and view many of the world famous works that were exhibited there. What perplexes me most about this issue is that most of the 'pros' for this sculpture seem to ignore the fact that, at least in my opinion, this rather modern, maybe beautiful piece will somehow not work where it's intended to be placed. I just think that putting this piece of modern/contemporary art between our historic firehouse, let's hope it gets completed soon and are equally historic train station is going to be somewhat out of place. Now, I may come to truly love this piece and admire it for years to come, I just think it belongs somewhere else in town. Additionally, the way this entire fiasco has been handled is a travesty. We cannot seem to get a straigt answer from anyone who should be in the know. Some of our BOT members also seem to think that it's OK to 'admonish' our citizens who wants answers to perfectly straightforward questions. I've lived here for over 20 years and I cannot express how disappointed I have become in the way this project has been handled, but many of the other re-developments projects in town. Don't even get me started about Beifus. Anyway, let's hope that in the long run this sculpture will not continue to cost the taxpayers as much money as it seems it's going to cost us right now. | ||
| composerjohn Citizen Username: Composerjohn Post Number: 740 Registered: 8-2004  |
vermont - I completely agree with you about the location. It needs to be moved someplace more neutral. There's a reason the walls at museums are white and boring - to highlight the art (not clash or compete with it). The firehouse and train station locations are very active, both aesthetically and physically. Not sure how it will work. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8832 Registered: 4-1997 |
Obviously, it should be in a park. | ||
| vermontgolfer Supporter Username: Vermontgolfer Post Number: 353 Registered: 12-2002 |
composerjohn, I guess that is what perplexes me most about this issue, if I can forget about the cost and the way this has been handled. The location is just so terribly wrong, that it surprises me that the 'artists' and I guess 'non-artists' who support this are not seemingly concerned how it will look in such a location. Unfortunately, it appears, like many others here, I'm simply venting frustration, since this looks like a done deal. Now only if Beifus and the Shop Rite site can get moving, maybe we'll soon forget about all this. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4255 Registered: 1-2004  |
 Sorry. I couldn't resist... | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 121 Registered: 12-2004 |
Cute cartoon. Assuming that Tau is a magnificent piece of art; further assuming that it was donated free of charge with an annuity to pay for upkeep; and further assuming that it could be placed anywhere we wanted, there is still a problem that I foresee. Every angle has an arrow point and no feng shui expert would advise that you place a home or business facing it. Don't ask me, ask Donald Trump. He consults feng shui experts before he builds anything, and he repositioned the facade of his most recent building on Columbus Circle for exactly that reason. Considering that it is being placed in the sacred cow area of your business district, this is not a good thing. That's it, I'm done. Time will tell. | ||
| bets Supporter Username: Bets Post Number: 22809 Registered: 6-2001 |
In my humble opinion, I think Tony would want Tau installed on the diamond on Stanley Road. But that's unrealistic. Grove Park is perfect. It's the park we went to, it is big enough, it's next to the SOPD. I witnessed SOFD having tremendous difficulty exiting the fire house last weekend, due to an overrun of people and cars. It was gridlocked, the circle squared. If the sculpture draws the attention the BOT claim, the situation above could include clueless tourists as well. Clear direction to Grove Park printed with those touristy maps of the town would be of great benefit. I agree that the location doesn't work. But I still want Tau here. | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1256 Registered: 10-2004 |
I disagree about the park. I mean it would look phenomenal in a park don't get me wrong. But these sculptures were very often placed in VERY busy urban environments alongside old buildings, and architecture. Often very much IN THE WAY of the people to literally force people to consider the work. I think the assumption that the scale is too large or it's too modern is not necessarily something that the artist would have agreed with you about. Take a look at the locations of his other sculptures and similar sculptures by other artists and I think you will see that there is a large variety of locations. Part of the beauty of this simple, yet powerful artwork is the reactions that they cause in the viewers and the interesting ways that the artwork can interact with the environments around them. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 316 Registered: 7-2005  |
Alley gater..move to south orange...pay south orange taxes then get involved in South orange issues if you love the statue so much start a group dedicated to bringing it to maplewood | ||
| composerjohn Citizen Username: Composerjohn Post Number: 741 Registered: 8-2004 |
I'm with bets - Grove Park is the perfect location. Who decided the current location? | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 318 Registered: 7-2005 |
someone who likes to clutter an already cluttered area | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4261 Registered: 1-2004 |
I dunno BETs it seems there is a lot of different and conflicting information out there. The link Mark posted about the book even has different information. That's why I asked for someone to clarify the information. I'm sure you would know he was living next door to you. I was thinking since the article said 'In the house Tony Smith grew up in', he had to have already been born when they moved here. Maybe because it mentions the sisters being born here, but not him. I didn't see what you post the link to when I followed the link I had posted. Was Kiki Tony's daughter? If so, that changes the meaning of that sentence and it makes more sense. | ||
| Matt Foley Citizen Username: Mattfoley Post Number: 571 Registered: 6-2004  |
I cannot wait for this! | ||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese Post Number: 961 Registered: 7-2004  |
"Alley gater..move to south orange...pay south orange taxes" Glock, I thought you were a college student living away from South Orange 9 months a year? Why don't you buy a place in South Orange, and pay taxes (no, your parents don't count) and then get involved in town politics. Really, you don't have to live in South Orange to have common sense. Try think before you post. | ||
| composerjohn Citizen Username: Composerjohn Post Number: 742 Registered: 8-2004 |
JTA - the entire article is talking about Kiki Smith, NOT Tony. Kiki Smith is Tony's daughter. In 1955, Kiki moved to South Orange to the house on Stanley Road where her father (Tony) was born and raised. Seton and Bebe Smith are Kiki's sisters. Hope this clears things up. Here's a snipet from the article:  EDIT: I corrected my post. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 320 Registered: 7-2005 |
MCcheese - Yes, I realize you don't have to live in the town to have common sense...but Alleygator has already proved that they don't have common sense...so whether or not they live here is not an issue... My overall point is that if people in other towns want the statue so much...they can have it...just don't put it here! As for the college student statement...considering I've lived in the town for 16 years now..I'd say that's a pretty rediculous statement. You'd let Seton Hall students run the town...but not the people that actually live there?! | ||
| bets Supporter Username: Bets Post Number: 22811 Registered: 6-2001 |
Noooooo!! Bebe and Seton (aka, Annie) are Kiki's sisters. "Smith's younger twin sisters...." Just to confuse the hell out of you, Seton is also an artist of renown! Here's a link to a retrospective for all 3 (three) Smiths I attended in 2002: http://www.artfacts.net/index.php/pageType/exhibitionInfo/exhibition/29309 | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 321 Registered: 7-2005 |
I think we're throwing around certain words too much. A better statement would be "Seton is also an artist of renown in the art community" | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 448 Registered: 6-2005 |
Dave- Has MHD been banned or just his indiscreet visual post removed? I hope just the latter as he seems to have a lot to contribute to the discussion. Also, as I think about the sculpture and the funding for it, which was from a community development block grant as I understand it, I wonder how it qualifies for such a grant. The grant is described as: "Provide funds for economic development, housing rehabilitation, community revitalization and public facilities designated to benefit people of low and moderate-income or to address recent local needs for which no other source of funding is available" It seems like a misappropriation of funds to me. | ||
| bets Supporter Username: Bets Post Number: 22812 Registered: 6-2001 |
Dave, I just heard that you banned MHD. I cannot understand why you wouldn't just remove the post with the offending art(!) and gently remind him of whatever policy he violated. Please reinstate MHD. I don't think he did anything wrong. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3491 Registered: 5-2001  |
I'm baaaaaack! Apparently, I was banned for 12 hours for posting a picture of "art" that got censored. The picture in question is located at this link and is a "self-portrait" by the "artist" named Kiki Smith: http://www.bernhardknaus-art.com/bilder/Smith_Self.html My question was "Why are we only honoring Tony Smith (who lived here) and not Kiki (who also lived here)? Perhaps we should purchase the "art" at the link above to REALLY spark some discussion.  | ||
| bets Supporter Username: Bets Post Number: 22813 Registered: 6-2001 |
Good to see you, MHD! I posted the link last night as soon as I saw your post had been removed, but I had no idea you'd been banned until this morning. Seems kind of silly IMHO. | ||
| peteglider Citizen Username: Peteglider Post Number: 1847 Registered: 8-2002 |
MHD -- We'll let you buy that lovely piece to put in the lobby of SOPAC -- or perhaps Mr Beifus or Mr Choi would like it for their new buildings? If we can take this discussion from the benefit of public art -- instead to fiscal responsibility in a difficult year -- perhaps this would be productive. I'd love to be able to afford at Tony Smith (maybe even a Kiki Smith!) -- but given that this year I'm paying for the bonds issued to buy New Market, to pay for construction and ongoing costs for SOPAC, as well as the pension hit, etc. -- right now is NOT the right time. If the BOT feels so strongly about public art -- how about starting a fund, a tax, on new construction -- where say 1/2 a percent goes to art in SO. Given Beifus' $18M loan for his building -- that would bring in $90k or so. Or add a $1/ticket "art fee" to events at SOPAC. Come to think of it, given that Beifus is saving $750k by eliminating the basement -- he can afford to kick in a few bucks for this. Pete | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5147 Registered: 10-1999  |
Full disclosure - I'm a Maplewood resident. But, I recently found the following article, that has some information that provided me (at least) with some good context for this issue (apologies if this has already been posted and "hashed over") - http://www.artnet.com/magazine_pre2000/features/tuchman/tuchman7-14-98.asp You may or may not want the sculpture, and you may or may not want it where it is proposed to be located - that's a good debate to have. But South Orange does seem to have been an integral part of his art. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4262 Registered: 1-2004 |
John- I think the mistake I made when I read the article is I either missed the word 'her,' or might have thought it was a typo. I have to admit, I didn't read the whole article. Thanks for clearing that up. From the snippet you posted, it still looks like he lived here awhile, moved away, then came back to raise his family. But it's not the length of time he lived here or if he was born here or not that's sees to be an issue with so many of us. At least for me, I am frustrated while our Downtown looks the way it does, it appears some members of the BOT are more concerned about missing deadlines for the acceptance of this 'gift' that will cost the taxpayer somewhere in the area of half a million dollars, then putting pressure on the builders of the Shop-Rite site, Beifus and whoever else, to stop dragging their feet with the redevelopment projects. Maybe we should wait until after the Performing Arts Center is finished, to determine if Sloan Street is the appropriate place for this 'gift.' I think it's more a slap in the face to those of us who live here that a statue and it's deadlines have more of a preference then what's happening with the redevelopment in town; then those of us speaking out being an insult to Tony Smith's family. It has nothing to do with who he was, or wasn't. I'd feel the same way no matter who it was. | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 606 Registered: 5-2004  |
Here's a link to another of Kiki Smith's works of "art". She's a bit more controversial than her dad, that's for sure! Warning! Do not click this link if you are easily offended - or even if you are not-so-easily offended. IMO this artwork is completely crude and tasteless. http://www.uam.ucsb.edu/Pages/kiki_train_detail.html | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1258 Registered: 10-2004 |
JTA this sorta bothers me, because you were the one asking over and over again how long he lived here, and insinuating that this artist (over other artists) was less deserving of recognition. You mentioned it enough times, that I went back to find posts by others that showed he was a member of our community. Then you went in search of your own evidence to try to prove that he in fact WAS NOT really a member of our community after all. It's fine if you've now been convinced, but don't try to spin it after the fact that this wasn't a problem for you earlier. It's frustrating to watch you do it. Now that you see this isn't a valid argument you fall back on your other arguments(fiscal responsibility) to back you up. I honestly don't care if you convince the BOT to hold off on putting up the sculpture 'til you feel it's time, but I am not stupid. I realize that this stalling tactic is done with the hopes that the project will never happen. What does concern me is that people who know little or nothing about fine art or art history start attacking a great artist uneccessarily and stating that art they don't understand is NOT ART or an EYESORE. I think many people don't see the value of having art in their community at all. Your arguments about the art, the artist and to a lesser degree the location of the art is problematic to me. Your arguments about fiscal responsiblity (seems short-sighted to me since the art work is not a very large percentage of the budget) are less troubling to me, and if you go back through my posts, you will see I generally don't bother to address that matter (all that much). Although I can't help but laugh at how stupid you seem when you complain that S.O. looks like a war-zone or a ghetto. Maybe things are worse than you would like but those descriptions seem extremely exaggerated. | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1259 Registered: 10-2004 |
PDG, as a Feminist visual artist she probably would be happy that you are offended by it and would be glad that people are talking about the meaning of the artwork. I stand by my earlier assertion that art that makes people "FEEL" anything whatsoever is pretty powerful. Now a days people tend to not notice or care about fine art and I am alwasys surprised when people do. That is what I find so interesting about this Tony Smith sculpture. For something so SIMPLE in form it sure is quite "controversial", "offensive", "crude" and "tasteless" to use some of your own adjectives. It certainly has some of the MOL community up in arms. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 157 Registered: 1-2006 |
It is the waste of tax funds which has us up on arms. The so-called art is not the issue. No one ran for office on the platform that a work of art will be bought and planted downtown, "if I am elected." jd | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 158 Registered: 1-2006 |
Yes, alley, I agree that the picture kiki provides the world of a female form, (could be a male, for all it matters), with red strings of beads apparently suspended from her pudenda is real art. Let's us put in front of Town Hall. Does anyone have any suggestions about where it should be hung? jd | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1264 Registered: 10-2004 |
Over your face? | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 159 Registered: 1-2006 |
Well, Dave, if that doesn't tell you volumes about this lady, what will? jd | ||
| Lucy Supporter Username: Lucy Post Number: 3068 Registered: 5-2005  |
Alley  | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8834 Registered: 4-1997 |
It's going in volume 14. By the way, I saw you walking up SO Ave the other day with Sbenois' Lasso of Omniscience™. I think he's been looking for it. | ||
| LibraryLady(ncjanow) Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3089 Registered: 5-2001  |
The South Orange Library has FAQ sheets and other information provided to us by the Director of the Tony Smith Sculpture Project.. They are available at the reference desk. Nancy | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3493 Registered: 5-2001 |
Maybe this would be a more appropriate handout in the Library: http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20060308/ts_csm/arevolt_1 High property taxes driving a new revolt This year, legislative proposals, citizen initiatives, and lawsuits are on the agenda in at least 20 states. These new efforts reflect both residents' distrust of how their property tax dollars are being spent and concerns that rising assessments are driving working-class people out of popular towns and cities. |
