| Author | Message | ||
     joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 161 Registered: 1-2006 |
Did anyone ask them for it? Did anyone campaign for it? Why not slow down, and ask the candidates next time around if they are for it, and get a public pulse. If the Smithistas can't wait, and will take their/our money somewhere else, we can always watch a movie in SOPAC, and buy some food at Delice de Chois. jd | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2523 Registered: 5-2004  |
It is not advocates that have put a time limit on this. I believe the original gift has a timeline that must be met. Though I personally don't think we should fund this, if we are going to do it, I believe we have a limited time to build it. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 322 Registered: 7-2005  |
If this guy was so bloody famous...why doesn't his wife pay for it? | ||
| FlyingSpaghettiMonst Citizen Username: Noodlyappendage Post Number: 29 Registered: 11-2005 |
She dead. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 163 Registered: 1-2006 |
Heirs? jd | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 323 Registered: 7-2005 |
Oh well then...why doesn't his estate pay for it... | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3495 Registered: 5-2001  |
c'mon Glock...haven't you been paying attention? The widow (before she died) gave this to us as a "gift". Don't all YOUR gifts that you receive cost YOU $500,000?  | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 324 Registered: 7-2005 |
That would be like my parents surprising me with a car... the only catch being it needs brakes, an oil change...and new tires..all of which I'd have to pay for... some gift | ||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 475 Registered: 1-2004  |
One other point about this project is that the clock has now started on the fabrication and in six months they expect to install it on a foundation "by others". There are a number of issues: > Are the designs finalized and ready to go to contract. > Will there be any public comment? > What will be done with a Gazabo? > Can the group raise $160k in time for the installation or will the Village have to pay and hope for a reimbursement. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4264 Registered: 1-2004  |
Alley- The length of time Tony Smith lived here is not the issue with ***}most** of those questioning the timing of the statue. For me, it is secondary. And yes, I was wondering why a piece of art by Tony Smith is more deserving then any of the other famous people born and raised here? Especially now, with all the unfinished projects we have to look at. Why is meeting a deadline or risk loosing the 'privilege' of spending a lot of money for the 'honor' of this 'gift' more important then putting pressure on or taking action against the developers who keep dragging their feet with all the different projects already going on in town? I think my level of annoyance, if you want to call it that, would be different if he lived her a few years, Vs many; but even f someone lived here all their life, I would still question the timing. Why is it so important we jump on this now? Why can it wait until after the redevelopment and especially the PAC finished? If Tony Smith's family cared as much about South Orange as you'd want us to believe, why the rush? Can't they see the wreck the Village looks? Why can't they wait until those pushing for the statue are able to raise the necessary funds, through private donations? I looked for information because I had no idea who he was. Nobody ever mentioned him on the different threads over the past few years as someone famous from either Maplewood or South Orange. I found conflicting information. If I remember correctly (and with all the meds I've been on the past few weeks my memory might not be so clear) when I asked for someone who knew for sure to clarify the information, I was told to do my own Google Search. I'm not going to lower myself to calling you names, as you have me. But I am far from stupid. I think it was MHD you responded to about your $20 not going to make a difference. I think someone pointed out it was more then that each of us living in south Orange would end up paying. I think MHD suggested you make a donation. I'm wondering, are you? Will you be willing to cough up the same amount each tax payer in south Orange is being asked to? As for a 'war zone' or 'ghetto' I don't recall using either word to describe the condition of South Orange Village. I did however say it looks a 'wreck,' and it does. you're darn right things are worse then I'd like. They are worse then a lot of residents would like. I might not be this jaded if some of these projects have been dragging on something like 8-10 years. Why is it Livingston projects Livingston broke ground for several years ago are almost complete? It gets frustrating when you watch a BOT meeting and you hear a trustee say something along the lines of 'If we don't meet the deadline for funding the statue, we loose it.' When plenty of other deadlines have been missed over and over again. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4265 Registered: 1-2004 |
Howard- You ask the questions in your post at 8:06pm in jest, no?  | ||
| hariseldon Citizen Username: Hariseldon Post Number: 433 Registered: 5-2001  |
http://www.artnet.com/artwork/424045242/tony-smith-tau.html According to this website, Tau has a run of nine, not 3 sculptures. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4266 Registered: 1-2004 |
After being told how 'stupid' I seem when I supposedly complain South Orange looks like a 'war-zone' and / or 'ghetto,' I decided to do a search of the boards; to make sure I didn't remember something I said. Well guess what? When I searched all the topics on MOL for the word 'warzone' I found only 7 posts with this word as far back as January 04. None from me; unless you count this post and / or my post around 8pm tonight (and I didn't include those in my count). When I did the same for the word 'ghetto,' there were 8, going back to January 04. Again, none for me; Unless you count this post and / or my post around 8pm tonight (and I didn't include those in my count either). That said, excuse me while I go put my leg up like it's supposed to be... | ||
| monster Supporter Username: Monster Post Number: 2385 Registered: 7-2002  |
So regardless of whether it's a big waste of money, which it is, it's still a fugly looking piece of crap. I've seen three year olds make better looking "art" out of playdough. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 325 Registered: 7-2005 |
Exactly...if the town wants a gift Ill draw up plans for a sculpture of equal quality this weekend and build the thing during spring break which is next week out of my pocket | ||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 1093 Registered: 5-2003 |
I'm sure that the late Mrs. Smith meant well when she gave South Orange the "right" to have one of her husband's sculptures built. I think that she didn't consider all of the ramifcations. She wanted to honor her husband, and she thought it would be a nice thing to have one of his pieces in a town where he had lived. And it would be--if. If it weren't going to end up costing the town--and the taxpayers, of which I am one--a large amount of money which we don't have... If the powers that be, in their infinite wisdom, had not decided to raze the gazebo and fountain for an additional sum of money in order to put the sculpture in their place... If our town hall and our firehouse were not in need of repair... If we didn't have empty lots and vacant buildings and years of empty promises and no progress... If the majority of our trustees were fiscally responsible and honest with us... Maybe then we could afford to indulge ouselves in this piece of "public art." But it is, and they did, and they are, and we do, and they aren't, so we can't. | ||
| monster Supporter Username: Monster Post Number: 2387 Registered: 7-2002 |
Can't the residents of S.O. sue to have the government officials of S.O. removed from office for gross incompetence? | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 165 Registered: 1-2006 |
I will ask the village attorney! jd | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1271 Registered: 10-2004 |
JTA: I'm sorry for calling you specifically stupid (IF I DID). I know I've felt like people who know little about art shouldn't pretend to be so knowledgable about what is good or bad art, IMO. I also went back and realized that the first paragraph I wrote to you personally because I felt you used one argument but then later said the argument no longer is important. If you have questions that you repeat over and over again, you might want to google it first. I KNOW I AM NOT THE FIRST PERSON WHO HAS SAID THIS TO YOU. I didn't know how long Tony Smith lived here. But with a very little amount of searching I was able to easily prove that he did live here and was a member of the community. I'm sorry that all of this frustration got me mean spirited. I also re-read my last post to you, and it occurred to me that I didn't mean the 2nd paragraph to be SPECIFICALLY toward you, but to everyone on this board. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4275 Registered: 1-2004 |
Alley- No problem. I think some of us have been getting so frustrated we forget to take a deep breath before we post. Me included. I still respect you and your opinions. Let's just agree to disagree on the statue. Okay? I do see where you are coming from and I'm sure I'd feel differently, if the circumstances in South Orange were different. If we were as lucky as Maplewood with the way some of our elected officials operate and behave, I wouldn't be saying a word. If I lived in Maplewood and Tony Smith grew up there I would think a nice place for the statue would be in Maplewood Village by the train station. The statue wouldn't be surrender by several different construction projects that have been dragging on for years. Worse, the gazebo, which isn't all that old, must be moved to make room for the statue. I think that's the main reason this whole situation frustrates a number of people is the lack of honest information from the BOT's and the way the statue is pretty much being given priority over finishing what's already been started. At least for me it is. Can you at least see that side of the issue? I can honestly tell you if there weren't the one going redevelopment problems in South Orange, I wouldn't be so passionate. Anyway, I promise from now on to take a deep breath before I post. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 326 Registered: 7-2005 |
Alley...you don't have to know a lot about art to decide what is good and bad art...it's all a matter of personal taste! | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8838 Registered: 4-1997  |
Art exists in context with other art. It's not a universal measure, but it is a strong one. If you aren't interested in art and haven't been part of its larger conversation, opinions like "it's all a matter of personal taste" are common and indicate an unwillingness to be open to art and be open to change. No one can change your opinion but you. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 167 Registered: 1-2006 |
Gee, you mean my opinion is worth less than your holy writ, because I don't agree with you. When I purchased a Miro, Les Pleiades, one of a tryptych, my opinion was not worth more than it was before, and I did not seek out your approval. I did sell the work, (in case any art thieves are reading this). My oldest would stare at the work when an infant, proving the worth of the artist. Did any of this information make my opinion more worth while? jd | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8839 Registered: 4-1997 |
Opinions are free and sometimes worthless. I'm sure there are artists somewhere who work in a perfect vacuum of seclusion and non-influence. Maybe they're making art. Who knows? Not sure if I was offering approval or disapproval. Nor was I trying to change anyone's opinion. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8840 Registered: 4-1997 |
However, while opinions about 'what is art' aren't solvable (which is good), questions about misusing federal grant money and/or lying to South Orange citizens are solvable and perhaps that's where this topic should focus. | ||
| peteglider Citizen Username: Peteglider Post Number: 1850 Registered: 8-2002 |
Thanks Dave. I have the feeling the "goodness of art" discussion is our version of Bush's India trip -- a distraction from the key issues... /p | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 327 Registered: 7-2005 |
opinions like "it's all a matter of personal taste" are common and indicate an unwillingness to be open to art and be open to change. How does that signify an unwillingness to be open to art and change? All I said was that you don't have to be a connoisseur to like or dislike pieces of art. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8842 Registered: 4-1997 |
No doubt. I was responding to the "all" in your statement. | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1277 Registered: 10-2004 |
You know I love ya Monster, but... This is the type of comments that bug the heck out of me. It strikes me as being uneducated. Fine you don't like it. I got no problem with that Glock. But when people start questioning what is "good" art and "bad" art and whether it even is "art" I start to get twitchy. It clearly is art if you are willing to be involved in the greater conversation about "what is art". I think what people forget or care little about is that art is made for lots of different purposes. It is easy for me to imagine making a work of art that is INTENTIONALLY ugly, to make a statement about beauty (for instance). Or to make a work of art that is overly-simple to make a statement about how complex our society is (for instance). Just because something looks simple to you or like your 3 year old can make it, does not mean it isn't art. What if your intention is to make art that reflects on the process of growing up, for instance? It doesn't mean it has no value either (and I don't mean ONLY monetary value). If you are only willing to think about art as just being pretty or not pretty (realizing of course that those are subjective and therefore different for every person) than you will probably have a very hard time having an educated conversation with someone about Art. | ||
| Crazy_quilter Citizen Username: Crazy_quilter Post Number: 215 Registered: 2-2005 |
In the middle of the night i realized that AlleyGater is actually AGAINST the Tony Smith sculpture! When I read what AlleyGater writes I feel angry and defensive. I feel the need to give all of my credentials as an artist before i give my opinion of the "art". AlleyGater sounds intelligent enough to know the effect his/ her words would have on some people (me). Thus, my conclusion is that AlleyGater is trying to stir up hatred of the darn thing! | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 168 Registered: 1-2006 |
Successfully. jd | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2548 Registered: 5-2004 |
Crazy, then Alleygater's posts are art. They are creating an emotional response in you, as intended. It's amazing, the art that Microsoft produces. I always have an emiotnal response when I need to create a powerpoint presentation. And Access, that has to be one of he best pieces of art ever. I don't know of a single person who uses Access and does not have an emotional response of some sort. | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1287 Registered: 10-2004 |
Crazy, I'm sorry I make you hateful. I do think the Tony Smith sculpture is Art however. Are you telling me that you are an artist and you don't consider the sculpture to be art? I don't think you need to like the sculpture, but I would like you to know a little something (or other) about art before you state that it isn't art. Is that really asking for much? Rastro, I am VERY liberal when it comes to the definition of art. I am little less liberal when it comes to the definition of Art but I'm still pretty open to most things. | ||
| SO1969 Citizen Username: Bklyn1969 Post Number: 223 Registered: 7-2004 |
Speaking of liberal..... this Tony Smith sculpture and South Orange's non-partisan elected politicians are causing me to wonder where my political heart truly lies (good thing GWB is in office, it makes national party id easy to hang on to). I'm thinking almost everyday about the overreach of our village government and my desire for SMALLER, more LIMITED government. I never dreamed of a town - and certainly never planned to live in a town - of 16,000 and NO RATEABELES to speak of with several streets that need paving, a drinking water supply problem, a dilapidated village hall, a dilapidated public library, a pension obligation time bomb, and schools with deferred maintenance feeling so WEALTHY that it would: - Purchase a $500,000 piece of art - Build itself a multimillion dollar performing arts center - Engage in several speculative real estate ventures (others here are more familiar with them than I am, please feel free to list) - Give away a building for $1 that within a few short years is sold for close to $600K after some murky non-profit involvement The Tony Smith sculpture fury has many sources, among them are: - of the above, it is one many of us feel we can still stop (the other trains left the station) - it is one of the most UNORTHODOX and IRRESPONSIBLE uses of small town (and possibly county, state, federal) government resources imaginable - it could very possibly blight the ONE little corner of our village commercial district we've managed to fix up I'm ready to start the SO Libertarian Party. I retain my right to membership in the National Democratic Party. Jon Corzine is starting to make me not care about the NJ Democratic Party. | ||
| monster Supporter Username: Monster Post Number: 2398 Registered: 7-2002 |
I never said that it wasn't art, just that I find it fugly looking, I've seen other pieces by Tony Smith that I have liked, just not this piece. I know art isn't all about making something that is pretty to look at, I know art can be created and used in the attempt to make a statement, any statement, regardless as to it's aesthetic faculties. I still don't have to like the way it looks, regardless of what the statement is, or whether I concur and or sympathize with the statement. As Santayana expressed, art vents animal compulsions. Before any intellectual thoughts are derived from a piece of art, there is a reaction that is purely instinctual, that is primal. In some cases my primal reaction to art is overcome by my intelectual demands, but not in this case. So what are the moral, social or political implications; values; or lessons of this sculpture, that qualitatively rise it above the the simple aesthetic value? What is aesthetic value, how is it assessed, or judged, or appreciated? There is the simple primal reaction, and then the intellectual concern, where art is qualified by previous experience, the present situation, value judgements (comparison with previous art whether by the same artist or not), what does it communicate, what is represented and what materials are used for this representation, why did the artist choose this structure - for this piece, how does it relate (or is it supposed to relate) to other pieces by the artist, why did the artist create this piece. How did I first approach the art, did I know or take into account the artist's life and the times the artist lived in, the tradition and style worked in, the views of the critics, coupled with my own emotional reactions and what I like or dislike? Do I or did I have a preconceived notion of the art? Is there a political, social, cultural, or monetary influence that affects my view? Will I have a sensual pleasure from this art? Blah-Blah-Blah.... There are as many ideas of what constitutes what as there are people and what they can think of to quantify there beliefs. I still say it looks fugly.... But I must admit that I was doing a bit of trolling, and was trying to illicit a response, any response, to my post. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3500 Registered: 5-2001 |
SO1969 - Great post! PL me if you would like to DO something about it. | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 75 Registered: 2-2006 |
Bravo SO1969! Hope there are more of you. | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 454 Registered: 6-2005 |
SO1969- Well stated. | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1288 Registered: 10-2004 |
Monster, I'll admit it's not my favorite Tony Smith either, but I don't remember us having a choice on which piece we could have. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 332 Registered: 7-2005 |
We do...this one was just thrown on us |
