| Author | Message | ||
     MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3519 Registered: 5-2001  |
OK...for those of you who missed the BOT Meeting tonight, let's summarize: 2 weeks ago, the following direct quotes, were spoken at the BOT Meeting when asked for the source of the "$250,000" for the Tony Smith sculpture: “It is coming from a grant that we received” (Calabrese) “The first $250 thousand was a grant” (Rosen) “The Statue obtained by a grant and and then supported by Committee”(Rosen) “This money came from a Federal Grant” (Rosen) “The Village is not going to spend a cent of taxpayer money” (Rosen) “It did so without sacrificing anything we would ordinary provide” (Taylor) “The money could only be used for that purpose We did not take tax dollars” (Taylor) “The money was given to us for the sculpture” (Taylor) At the meeting, tonight the message from the BOT was "oops". John Gross then claimed HE told the real story 2 weeks ago that the Village is BONDING (increasing debt) to pay for the sculpture, but somehow didn't seem to hear ANY of the quotes above in order to correct the BOT. So...Calabrese, Taylor & Rosen LIED. The TENURED John Gross took the "blame" and we all pay the almost $500,000 tax bill. Assuming the Fundraising Committee will not attain their goal of raising an additional $140,000 in 6 months Any questions? | ||
| Soda Supporter Username: Soda Post Number: 3595 Registered: 5-2001  |
Just One: Don't you know that you should never assume? And one observation: The talented and dedicated lady you so inelegantly took on tonight absolutely OWNS you, and my money (though obviously none of yours) is on her committee coming through... -s. | ||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese Post Number: 984 Registered: 7-2004  |
impeachment... Soda.... I own you. | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 470 Registered: 6-2005 |
Well for anyone watching at home, it was finally made clear that taxpayer money is going for the statue. And that women who is the Director of the Tony Smith project, who proclained to have all the citizen support for the project, never fessed up to telling all her supporters that tax payer money (bond money at that) would be used to fund much of the project. And did I hear right? Did Calabrese actually ask her to see if Tony Smith's children would be willing to "donate" another sculpture for outside SPOAC? More "donations" like this will bankrupt us. What arrogance! | ||
| Agrackle Citizen Username: Agrackle Post Number: 21 Registered: 2-2004 |
Can someone please remind me again how we go from $85,000 in fabrication costs (which seems reasonable) to $400,000+ in total cost (excluding unknown ongoing costs for maintenance)? And if this project was approved a few years back (and we're only getting around to figuring out how to pay for it now), why was the gazebo and fountain built just to be torn down later? Or am I thinking of the wrong location? | ||
| Ace789nj Citizen Username: Ace789nj Post Number: 315 Registered: 2-2005  |
that's what we'd call "being •••-backwards" damn the red dots | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 89 Registered: 2-2006 |
At minimum, we now see how the BOT makes decisions. Like a bunch of children with play money, they decide what they want regardless of whether the costs for their grandiose desires are justified. At best, they were oblivious to how the sculpture was paid for. However, realistically, both the town administration and the BOT can't truthfully claim simultaneous ignorance. One or the other is lying and dissembling. And neither inexcusable ignorance of the sculpture's costs, nor attempted intentional deceipt about it is acceptable. Patrick Fry, a relatively new resident in town, spoke well for many. They did not respond even to all of his questions and reasonable concerns. So the tactic of accusing people who question them of being out of step with some mass of people they represent will not work. Unless, of course, the town thinks it is fine to have leaders ignorant of fiscal affairs and lying to the public about them. The same process of ignorance and dissembling has almost certainly characterized the funding for SOPAC. Instead of half a million, it costs 10 million or more. How are we going to pay for it? All signs indicate it is the future debt of the town that will pay, and pay heavily, when the current village president is no longer in office and may have slipped out of town. If more than 25% of the electorate of South Orange voted, things might change. Otherwise, South Orange will forfeit its promise and be merely another blighted town people move away from. | ||
| growler Citizen Username: Growler Post Number: 915 Registered: 11-2001  |
How can we have such inept and corrupt individuals running our town? It's baffling. How is a Tony Smith sculpture going to improve my life? It's not. And I'm sure if a survey was taken around town, other people would say the same. What I would like to see is my taxes being lowered. Projects being completed. My town becoming a vital place to shop, dine and hang out. But this does not look like it will happen in my lifetime. Another question: if Maplewood can redevelop Springfield Avenue at a brisk pace, why can't South Orange do the same? I mean come on. The Village Market to "open soon" and yet Maplewood gets a natural grocery store within a couple of months. What the hell is going on? | ||
| Captain Kangaroo Citizen Username: Parkingsux Post Number: 342 Registered: 6-2005  |
I didn't quite understand the Seton Hall connection to the sculpture. I think the presenter is admirable in rousing public support for the project; albeit, it was some years ago. Does she know Mr. Choi (they say he's the excited grocery store developer for shop rite), perhaps he might have some interest in contributing? I'd be much more comfortable with the sculpture's cost being raised by private donations only. If there is so much support, and she has the pulse of the community at hand, why can she not raise the money privately. As we know, the public is more than contibuting its share toward the performing arts with the undertaking of SOPAC (that might very well turn into a black hole - lets hope not!). But the sculpture is too much money to consider at this time. Build it with private money, and park it in the park, along the refurbished river corridor. For the speaker who spoke as a former resident of the suburbs of Chicago, I'm with you. Let's put our priorities straight when it comes to public indebtedness. Since I'm getting up in age, the story tellings from the BoT make me think I'm getting too old for us to be bold face liars as we have repeatedly demonstrated. Furthermore, the oldest - the Chair of Finance should resign for his statements of record. He was caught, plain and simple - lying. You take an oath of office and nothing else matters from there on. It's sick, very, very sick. | ||
| michael brant Citizen Username: Mbrant Post Number: 132 Registered: 10-2005 |
Oh another wonderful statement...Once the art center is in place and the sculpture is up the students will come...thousands of them. Why do I want thousands of students coming to town? Can anyone tell me. Is Mr. Calabrese aware that this school is partly a commuter school and is closed form May to September and many weeks in between. I really just do not get it. Can Someone please explain it to me. | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1499 Registered: 3-2003 |
The funny thing is that the SHU students who are on this board and leaders at the school have expressed their opposition to the statue. I should add that Mrs. S (there she is again) has been a professional artist and operated a gallery in a prior life, and likes Tau. We were at MOMA last Saturday to seen the Munch exhibit, and saw the outdoor sculpture garden. Mrs. S said she liked Tau better than some of the works in the garden. And one of our sons was the curator of a collection which was the last show at the old MOMA and then donated to MOMA, so some of it has rubbed off on me. My objection has been the confusion about explaining how it is financed, and I thought Patrick's Fry's comments were on the mark. And Bill C was his usaual self and kept interrupting Patrick. Bill doesn't realize how rude he is. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3527 Registered: 5-2001 |
Just curious..how does Mrs. S feel about up to $500,000 of TAX DOLLARS being used to buy this sculpture? Was Mrs. S aware that TAX DOLLARS were being spent, or did she believe a GRANT was being used as was stated until last night? Also, does Mrs S. know how many roads could be paved with that same amount of money? | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 597 Registered: 4-2005  |
The BOT knows my opposition to the statue and I spoke with Bill after the meeting and told him that I doubted the sculpture would attract students to the downtown (except for our art majors and art club which represent a very small percentage of our population). However, I know that SOPAC definitely will attract students. | ||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese Post Number: 985 Registered: 7-2004 |
Is it too late to say "no thanks" and cut our losses? | ||
| michael brant Citizen Username: Mbrant Post Number: 137 Registered: 10-2005 |
Ok Sheena I agree with you. So you know what will not attract students to the downtown please tell us what will attract students to the downtown. | ||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese Post Number: 987 Registered: 7-2004 |
A bar that doesn't ID people will attract many. Oh, and also drink specials at bars... | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1500 Registered: 3-2003 |
MHD - Mrs. S really didn't know about the financing until I explained it to her. She does get upset about the taxes. For sure, Mrs. S doesn't think it will make SO a destination point. And I have to emphasize that she really relates to artists, has the soul of an artist, and has an incredible eye. I thought this background was important since at the previous BOT meeting, Trustee Jennings thought it was necessary to say to the speakers who opposed the sculpture that they probably didn't "appreciate art." The other point about Bill C's comments to Patrick Fry last night is that Bill C recited all the reasons that house prices in SO had risen - the coming of SOPAC, Tau, the coming market, the coming Beifus site - all the things in the future. The one thing he didn't mention is midtown direct, the largest driver of house prices. Play the tape. | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 91 Registered: 2-2006 |
Patrick Fry's analogy last night is trenchant: The town buying a $500,000+ sculpture with borrowed money is like a homeowner buying a plasma TV with borrowed money when their house needs a new roof. On another thread, someone apologized for repeating the obvious: you can't borrow your way out of debt. The BOT expects taxes to pay for their excesses. Their problem is not that they don't understand but rather that they willfully do the wrong thing after numerous people have asked them not to. | ||
| Josh Holtz Citizen Username: Jholtz Post Number: 334 Registered: 4-2004 |
Spitz is right. BC forgot to mention the one factor which has increased SO home values - the train. IMO many of the reasons he gave have actually made SO less desirable. | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 598 Registered: 4-2005 |
Michael... I already stated SOPAC will and according to the surveys we put out to students last year - there are a number of things the student body would like to see: 1) a diner that is open late at night 2) a store such as the gap or old navy 3) a supermarket... 4) a movie theater (already addressed) those are the ones I remember off the top of my head but if you PL me, I'd be happy to share the entire survey with you. These results were given to MSSO. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3528 Registered: 5-2001 |
I would bet that if we put this $250,000 Ferrari where the gazebo is on Sloan Street it would attract significantly more people (including students) to see it than any Sculpture ever will.  But that would be fiscally irresponsible, wouldn't it? | ||
| Lucy Supporter Username: Lucy Post Number: 3140 Registered: 5-2005  |
MHD that is great  | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 472 Registered: 6-2005 |
Wonderful Italian art...and its movable too. No installation costs. As for maintenance, a little Turtle Wax. And for a fee, residents could rent it for a day to add a little panache to their front driveway. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3529 Registered: 5-2001 |
jayjay, Now all we need are a few Letters to the Editor, some goody bags for the BOT with a Ferrari Book and 10 people with T-Shirts to show up at the next BOT Meeting and I bet we could get them to support this. After all, it will only cost each household about $44. RIGHT??? | ||
| Perry White Citizen Username: Parkingsux Post Number: 343 Registered: 6-2005 |
Where's Clark and Lois when I need them. We should have more stories about our unabashed town officials in the regional and national papers and tv. Wow, TS is coming.... let's get the video and news print crews rolling.... We'll start with TS, go to SOPAC and then walk the village center to village hall......  The grand tour will end with a reception in honor of our BoTs' vision at the dilapidated Old Stone House.... | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 630 Registered: 5-2004  |
Agrackle - Here is a copy of a post of MRosner's from the archives of the "Tony Smith Sculpture" thread to answer your numbers question above: _________________________________________________ Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 11:12 am: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Below is the "project estimate costs" that the BOT had. The final costs might be different. For instance, the actual fabrication is $85,000 although the projection showed $90,000. Fabrication: $90,000 Delivery and Installation: $20,000 Site improvements: Demo/Site clearing $40,000 Brick Paving $65,000 Structural Soil $55,000 Furniture, landscaping and irrigation $60,000 Lighting $35,000 Site Design and construction admin. $75,000 Total Cost: $440,000 Grants have been applied for and money is expected to be raised privately. The net cost to the village is expected to be around $250,000. The most recent vote was to award a contract to the fabricator - and not on the statue itself which was some time ago (do not remember the date). | ||
| Agrackle Citizen Username: Agrackle Post Number: 22 Registered: 2-2004 |
Thanks Pdg. Do these numbers seem out of whack to anyone who knows about this kind of installation. Also, who has been awarded the contract for installation and site work? | ||
| Frederick Schmid Citizen Username: Carlfrederick Post Number: 8 Registered: 3-2006 |
Am native of Maplewood, but no live in California. Have been a art museum director for 30 years. No these costs are close to real except there is the need for insurance coverage and signage. I don't see any artist fee. Is that covered by someone else. Frederick | ||
| Ace789nj Citizen Username: Ace789nj Post Number: 320 Registered: 2-2005 |
What kind of lighting costs 35 G's? Furniture, landscape and irrigation - 60 ?? And "structural" soil - 55 grand !!!! | ||
| Frederick Schmid Citizen Username: Carlfrederick Post Number: 9 Registered: 3-2006 |
On a public site you have to put industrial strength materials, so by the time the electrical power is brought to the site, metered, and major lighting installed, you can get to 35Gs in a heartbeat. All the furniture has to be installed properly so that it doesn't get carried a way. Also, it has to be capable of taking all kinds of abuse. Frederick | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 475 Registered: 6-2005 |
Was there ever an RFP for the installation and site design? Since the taxpayers will wind up paying for this, shouldn't this have been put out to bid and competitive site design presentations. If competitive bidding was not done, isn't that a violation of some statute? Or has the BOT's handed off that responsibility to the fund raising group? BTW, the DPW crew was out today throwing mulch around the plants beds flanking the gazebo. Has anyone told them this area is history? | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3535 Registered: 5-2001 |
jayjay, I think I am finally coming around to what a great project the Sculpture will really be for the town. I am now starting to think that this sculpture will become a defining symbol of the greed, incompetence and arrogance of our town's politicians. Every time people pass by the sculpture and then go to the Library with the leaking roof and buckets on the floor, they will be reminded of it. Every time someone passes by the sculpture and then later drives over the potholes of Newstead streets they will be reminded of it. Every time someone passes by the sculpture and then uses the antiquated locker rooms at the Pool they will be reminded of it. Perhaps this sculpture is finally the tangible proof we can all point out to the entire community about how arrogant and out of touch the politicans really are. | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 633 Registered: 5-2004 |
Hey Frederick, you seem knowledgeable about this stuff. Any idea as to how much we already spent to bring plumbing to the site for the fountain that will be torn down (and which never worked properly according to the trustees)? | ||
| Frederick Schmid Citizen Username: Carlfrederick Post Number: 10 Registered: 3-2006 |
Pdg Sorry, don't have the info on the fountain, but there are many reasons fountains can be difficult in the colder climates. Pumps like to get clogged. Frederick | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 637 Registered: 5-2004 |
That's ok, Frederick. My point really was to highlight the likely very large expenses already made to improve the precise site that the TS Sculpture is planned to occupy. Not sure of the date, but the gazebo and fountain were installed during the past 9 yrs that I've lived here. Goes to show poor planning at a minimum. | ||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 484 Registered: 1-2004  |
In reviewing the BOT video Bill may be correct, if we build it they will come ... Seton Hall students will be attracted to our new restaurants- Quiznos and Subway and will come to view the sculpture. www.howard-levison.com/bot03132006_Downtown.wmv But, what I am really waiting for is for him to articulate this vision that he claims. By the way he forgot to mention the major drivers for the increased real estate value was - NJTransit Direct and Interest Rates! www.howard-levison.com/bot03132006_vision.wmv Thank you Patrick Fry - we need more citizens to come forward and speak up. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3538 Registered: 5-2001 |
Perhaps that is why he felt the need to leave the Meeting in the middle, walk across the street and go to the Pharmacy (true fact). His vision is pharaceutically induced (pure comic speculation). | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8885 Registered: 4-1997  |
http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/essex/index.ssf?/base/news-1/114240237272090.xml&c oll=1 The question SO voters should now ask is: what else are they "misspeaking" about? | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2594 Registered: 5-2004  |
Misinformed by whom? I guess it sounds better to say that someone gave them incorrect information than to say that they attempted to defraud HUD. And of course, that someone who gave them incorrect info will not be identified. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 174 Registered: 1-2006 |
Well, when I finish this federal trial I am engaged on, I will ask. But, why wait, go the next meeting and ask. Ask if the informant did it in writing, if their was correspondence, and ask for copies, or how to obtain one. Back to court. jd |
