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Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 346
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 11:38 am: | 
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What exactly is your view of the state of South Orange? Mr. Brant, now would be a good time to give us your thoughts, seeing as how you avoided the other thread directed towards you and yet you continue to target other individuals. Mr. Brant I hear you are never seen in threads directed towards you. Do you ever come to MaplewoodOnline to do anything but be negative? Do you see what is going on in the threads? I hear you also are only around when you want to point fingers, is this true? |
Stevef
Citizen
Username: Stevef
Post Number: 179
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 11:39 am: |
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LOL |
michael brant
Citizen
Username: Mbrant
Post Number: 159
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 12:19 pm: |
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Glock 17 question to me "What exactly is your view of the state of South Orange?"
My answer- South Orange is the town that could become the most viable and valuable town in Essex County. The value of this towns is the residents. Not the Art Center or the Supermarket or the Tony Smith sculpture. South Orange is a community full of life it is a community that has arrived. And until this Board recognizes this and protects what we have we will fall apart. We do not need to become a tourist destination. This is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard in my life coming from a town president or Mayor in a community like ours. If Tony Smith brings thousands to town then be prepared to get in a longer line for your neighborhood coffee break at Starbucks. If we become a tourist destination will there be a stand selling miniature versions of the Tony Smith? Maybe balloons and those light up sticks.
I moved to a town that has exactly what I was looking for a strong community of wonderful residents.....not tourists.
So the state of South Orange to me is in danger.
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Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1518
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 12:41 pm: |
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You know, I think michael makes a lot of sense. He's really hit on what's ailing this town - a Village President whose ego has become so large that he has become unable to step back and make objective decisions. As a matter of fact, one of the main problems is that the VP thinks he is the only one who knows what's good for this town and only he can make it happen. Just take another look at the video of his speeches to Patrick Fry this past BOT meeting. I guess the reason he didn't mention the midtown direct is because he can't take credit for it. |
michael brant
Citizen
Username: Mbrant
Post Number: 160
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 1:16 pm: |
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Every resident has to wake up. This is a very serious situation.
Personally speaking I do not want to walk into town and see a huge so called art center drawing hundreds of cars a day..I do not want to walk into town and see hundreds of condos...I do not want to walk into town and have to fight crowds. I want to walk into town and buy my bagel and have an ice cream and a starbucks coffee and enjoy a nice quiet dinner in one of our restaurants go to the bank and post office or a nice walk in one of our parks. I am looking forward to enjoying a weekend breakfast at our new diner. If I want to see a movie I prefer to go to another town. If I want to see a show I can go to N.Y., NJPAC or Paper Mill....let them deal with the crowds and mess of the after math of hundreds of people or the noise pollution of added cars or the POLUTION of emissions of hundreds of added cars hourly. Once Mr. Clalbreses dream is fulfilled we will be flooded with businesses who benefit from crowds not an upscale customer base. Buid it and they will come oh yes that is true they will come, they will make a mess and they will go home. |
Debra Davidson
Citizen
Username: Peanutslady
Post Number: 139
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 5:14 pm: |
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This how I feel about South Orange. As a resident I agree with Michael Brant on most things. I also think that a town must take pride in it's self. I feel we should have a down town and neighbor hoods that we the residents of South Orange can be proud of. I feel it is very important for all of us to live in a beautiful place that we all take care of. This is our town and I feel very strongly that we all must have say in how our money is spent and how the town will be revitalized. I think it is in the best interest of South Orange that they send a questionnaire to each and every person living and working in South Orange. The questionnaire should ask us how we want the revitalization to be, because we live and work here day in and day out. I feel the revitalization must be a benefit to the community and resident of South Orange. |
Pdg
Citizen
Username: Pdg
Post Number: 651
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 5:25 pm: |
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You're so right, Debra!
And the recent Gaslight had a questionnaire in it, so we know they CAN do it - if only they WANT to! |
michael brant
Citizen
Username: Mbrant
Post Number: 163
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 10:52 am: |
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Debra you are 100% correct. With the vision of our BOT we are going to become a destination town for thousands of residents from other towns. Today over 2000 people commute from south orange each day. Once SOPAC is complete you are opening up the town to thousands of people. Do you want thousands of people clogging the streets and roads. They are crowded now. Everyone complains about the parking issue or trying to drive into town. What do you think is going to happen once these places open? Perfect example is on the evenings that the Paper Mill has a show the parking lots ar packed and the restaurants are packed. Police are on the street directing the traffic. How do the Millburn or Short Hills residents benefit from any of this? They don't!
South Orange will be a mess! Keep the town quaint...keep the town clean and keep the town to ourselves. Say no to Bill Calabreses Tourists! |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 349
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 10:59 am: |
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You all missed the point entirely. |
srg227
Citizen
Username: Srg227
Post Number: 35
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 11:38 am: |
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how did Michael Brant miss your point? He talked specifically about what he wants to see, and what he doesn't want to see, in South Orange. He contrasted his vision of the village with that the BOT's. I thought it was a pretty good answer. You might disagree with his conclusions, but that's altogether different than missing your point. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 354
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 11:46 am: |
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No..they all missed the point...the whole thing was a joke. |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1522
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 11:52 am: |
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Glock - I didn't miss your point. Your first post was excellent. It cerainly deserved a LOL. Michael Brant came back with an excellent response, at least one that I agree with. It was substantive and I think articulated the concerns that some of us have with the direction of the Village.
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bettyd
Citizen
Username: Badjtdso
Post Number: 145
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 1:32 pm: |
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I agree with Michael Brant. I have said often on this Board that I don't like the direction in which SO is heading-making it a night life or tourist destination with theaters and all sorts of fancy restaurants. Some people on this board are even eagerly talking about getting a McDonald's downtown for crying out loud. A McDonald's!?!?!? What are they thinking?
I, for one, don't see parking decks and fast food chains as a great benefit to a town but a detriment. We are ceasing to be a quiet, clean residential community. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 356
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 2:17 pm: |
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Regardless of how articulate or right-on his posts are
Logging and seeing a 2 or 3 new "come out come out" or "Mr.soandso SPEAK UP" gets old very fast. If he want's to communicate with these individuals write them a letter, email, or call them. |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1525
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 2:24 pm: |
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Yeh - I agree with you on that. That was my reaction also and I thought your post was a classic. |
michael brant
Citizen
Username: Mbrant
Post Number: 165
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 2:26 pm: |
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BETTYD yes...you are 1000000% correct. I think we should look to attract small privately owned businesses. MC Donalds? I am sick to hear that. Calabresses words this past Monday evening were we are going to become a tourist destination!!
THE VISION OF OUR BOT'S ARE SICKENING.
When Mr. Devaris commented we should leave Beifus alone and allow him to continue because he is into it for 5 years and why would we want to start over MADE ME SICK!! I do not like this thinking at all. I say Mr. Devaris condemn Beifus and make a park for the downtown area. Trees, tables, music in the summer. A place for all to enjoy and send a message to the Beifuses of the world DONT MESS WITH OUR TOWN! |
vermontgolfer
Supporter
Username: Vermontgolfer
Post Number: 356
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 4:02 pm: |
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Michael,
I think the time has come to do something, other than complain about Beifus, as MHD has done in a previous post. I've grown tired over the years at the lack of movement on the development of this prime real estate in the center of our town.
Since I recall reading somewhere else here that the BOT would accept a referendum on the TS sculpture, I suggest we get a referendum going on removing Mr. Beifus as the developer of this site, so that maybe we can finally see some movement. I'd be more than happy to assist in this action, however I do not have the time to spearhead such an effort.
Mr. Beifus may be a nice guy and a good businessman, but he's a lousy developer and it's due time that something be done about it.
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bettyd
Citizen
Username: Badjtdso
Post Number: 150
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 9:54 am: |
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Michael Brant: Did you see my posts in the earlier "No Vision in SO" thread? I won't bore people again with my same rants, but take a look if you haven't seen them. Basically people want to make SO a hip/urban spot but also keep it a lovely suburban residential community. I say you can't get both. If people want Hoboken or Brooklyn, why don't they move there or stay there? |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3586
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 10:09 am: |
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bettyd,
I'll take a stab at this one. We moved here from Hoboken when we wanted to be able to have a house, some grass, some trees & what we thought was going to be a lively and vibrant town center. If we wanted a sleepy town that closed up at 5pm, we could have moved out to the far suburbs in Monmouth or Morris counties, but we wanted diversity and culture locally, as well as being close to NYC. We had initially looked alot at Montclair, but just didn't find a house we liked that we could afford when we stumbled upon South Orange - saw all the talk of "Coming Soon" and believed it. That was EIGHT years ago! We have found the PEOPLE in South Orange to be far more amazing than we ever imagined. But the government and appearance of the downtown has been less than impressive
To your point, I think Montclair DOES offer the "hip/urban" feel while still being a "lovely residential community", so it is possible to have both. |
jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 494
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 10:30 am: |
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I agree that you can have both, as long as there is a vision and plan for the town which puts it in the right direction. I fear the talk of all the parking decks, and the haphazard redevelopment projects. I took a look today at the size and scale of SOPAC and wondered what were they thinging. Wouldn't it have been nicer if a theater had been built maybe on the Beifus site more in scale with the town. We didn't need a $13 million multiplex, did we? And do we really want 3 and 4 story condos all over the downtown?
In connection with the Tony Smith sculpture, Calabrese seemed to want to compare us to New Brunswick and Princeton in the last BOT meeting. As far as I'm concerned, we are nothing like either, either when it comes to art or anything else. We need to have our own vision, and not some ridiculous notion of becoming a tourist destination which the VP and other BOT members expressed. |
bettyd
Citizen
Username: Badjtdso
Post Number: 151
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 10:17 am: |
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MHD and jayjay: I guess we'll have to disagree on this one. I see SO trying desperately to have it both ways and failing. I don't want the town to close at 5:00 p.m. and it never has, and I moved here as a kid in 1965. We have enough restaurants/bars/take out places. There are excellent restaurants all over the area.
Yes, the people are great. The downtown isn't. I recall walking the downtown Sloan Street/SO Avenue area on a recent early Sunday morning. The trash everywhere, overflowing garbage cans. It was so horrible I couldn't believe it.
People are trying to make it something it shouldn't be, and will never become. |
bettyd
Citizen
Username: Badjtdso
Post Number: 153
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 5:10 pm: |
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jayjay and MHD: We do need to have "our own vision", but there seem to be so many competing visions that residents have. Your visions and my vision appear to be different, but maybe not that far apart in reality. The current village leadership has what I consider to be a lack of vision, or a warped vision to turn SO into Hoboken West. They compared us to New Brunswick and Princeton? Really!? On what basis? Because we all have a college in town? The similarities end there. Besides, Princeton is so much different than New Brunswick it isn't funny. What comparison was he making?
I know I may be harping on this but I shudder when I read that some of my fellow residents want a McDonald's downtown. My vision is so far from their vision it isn't funny. I fear that if a McDonald's or Burger King or Taco Bell, etc. (remember, when one comes the others usually follow) want to come into town the powers that be will say great, less empty storefronts, more tax revenue, and many of my fellow residents will say great, more places to eat. I'll be longing for the empty storefront.
The funny thing about zoning and land use questions is they have a sort of "toothpaste out of the tube" quality. Once a few bad decisions are made it is tough to reverse the process. We are seeing the result of bad decisions when you drive through downtown.
Could we change the form of government to an annual town meeting type of format, with articles to be discussed by the residents in an open forum one or two weekends a year? It takes the power out of Calabrese's hands and the Board's. I have no idea how or if that could be done. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3611
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 5:18 pm: |
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bettyd,
I do agree that we are NOT Princeton and we are NOT New Brunswick. I also agree that we do NOT want McDonald's and other fast food.
I am curious what other town out there would you say we "should" be like. Obviously every town is different, but do you see us like Montclair? Red Bank? Irvington? Morristown? Englishtown? Chester? I mean this as a serious question - I understand that you don't want to be like Hoboken, but what DO you want to be like?
To your last point, a "Redevelopment Committee" is being formed which is SUPPOSED to accept input from residents, but we all know how unwilling Calabrese is to listen to anything. |
bettyd
Citizen
Username: Badjtdso
Post Number: 155
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 5:58 pm: |
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I guess I'm angry that it has gotten to the point where we all have to talk about which town or towns we want to emulate, when others used to emulate us. I would say let's not be like anyone. We can be South Orange, the best town in the state. But out of the towns you mentioned, I prefer Red Bank and Chester.
Let's get a grip on this haphazard and snails's pace development. If the town owns the Shop Rite building, let's institute some sort of reverse condemnation lawsuit against them and force them to do something or take it from them. Either that or lower our taxes. If we kept our homes in that condition the town would move against us. Put in a YMCA or artists' studios/lofts there. Can it be done? I have no clue but we need some bold action. Take the fight to them.
Let's use some of our tax dollars to pay for people to clean downtown, not for sculptures. |
jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 503
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 6:01 pm: |
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I think one town which could serve as a model might be Madison. It has a university, has NYC access via the train, has a vibrant downtown without a honky-tonk atmosphere, has a housing stock which frankly is not as interesting as ours but isn't the typical suburban sprawl either, and has a main corridor which runs through its downtown. I don't think its a complete match as I think we probably have more of our population in a lower economic bracket, and the problems encumbent with that, and the adjacency to Newark. But it is worth noting that Madison's businesses have been able to stay afloat despite being a stone's throw from both malls. Whatever they've done, it might be well to emulate. Perhaps we could have a town-to-town meeting...just the residents, forget the pols. |
SO1969
Citizen
Username: Bklyn1969
Post Number: 245
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 6:45 pm: |
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Calabrese's comments at last week's meeting made it clear he thinks we somehow need to attract people to our town and he's busy spending our money to create the attactions - SOPAC, sculpture, etc.
[Nevermind the disconnect between this great need to attract people and the fact that he said: SO used to be a flight town, but now we're attracting new residents, we must be doing something right]
What was not clear from what he said was WHY? He seemed to link these "attractions" to the viability of our restraurants, shops, etc. I don't think these attractions are at all necessary to improve traffic in our shops and restaurants.
Sure, we go to the movies in Montclair, Maplewood and Millburn and do tend to eat dinner when we're there, but we go to those towns just as often just to eat dinner (MW far more often) - no movie included.
South Orange needs to capture its own disposable income. Some restaurants do a good job and are rewarded for it. The Village's role should be to create an environment for these private businesses to succeed, it shouldn't busy itself - and put our $$ at risk - by getting involved in RE ventures or these art projects that are way out of scale in cost and risk relative to our population/budget.
I really think all the town needs is:
(1)thoughtful planning with regard to traffic and parking;
(2) good taste and sensibility in its choice of landscaping/ streetscaping/ building facade improvement programs; and
(3) a Village government that does the basic blocking and tackling of providing village government services within a reasonable budget so that SO remains an attractive place to own residential and commercial real estate.
I don't know if I'm the only one that feels this way, but going into the commercial part of town depresses me - literally. Or, it gets me agitated (see Village Hall, library, gazebo to be torn down, construction sites - should be called Destruction Sites because nothing seems to go up).
Who wants to go to dinner and deal with that depression or agita (sp?)
Instead I can go to Montclair or Maplewood and wonder why they seem to do the blocking and tackling very well, lettng the private enterprises flourish (within environments the towns/mainstreet orgs have prescribed and helped create).
We don't need to figure out what kind of town we want to be...we're a suburb of NYC with a 29 minute train ride to Penn Station with a diverse and interesting population, great historic housing stock and a scenic location. That is all we need to attract people...it's happening already! (as Bill noted)
We just need to get the blocking and tackling - the basics - right and stop making these expensive mistakes and entering into these risky real estate ventures that never seem to work out right.
If we don't, SO will become a flight community again - instead of whites fleeing changing demographics, it will be taxpayers of all stripes fleeing a town with a crushing tax burden and deteriorating public services.
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Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1551
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 8:20 pm: |
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Excellent post.
I think what has happened is that several years nobody forsaw that because of the midtown direct, SO houses would be so desirable. I don't think anybody forsaw the gigantic turnover in houses with an entirely new demographic, both in terms of race, age, sexual orientation and so on.
This change in demographics is nothing short of phenominal. Our goal should be to capitalize on what we have been given by this fortuitous turn of events. We have already attracted the people - let's concentrate on keeping them. |
AntoninaKC
Citizen
Username: Antoninakc
Post Number: 211
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 8:26 pm: |
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betty- good point "Let's use some of our tax dollars to pay for people to clean downtown, not for sculptures" |
Soparents
Citizen
Username: Soparents
Post Number: 5
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 5:23 pm: |
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South Orange could be something to be proud of. With the amount of taxes we pay, why do we settle for second best? Why do I perpetually hear (gossip/second hand news??) that things have happened behind closed doors, none of it to our benefit, or that at meetings peoples comments are ignored unless they are endorsing the BOT? We moved in 4 years ago, knowing, per our agent, that things were about to improve.... I gave up on that hope long ago... I agree that we need to make SO unique. Maybe take a clue from other select areas, but have a personality of our own, not a clone of somewhere else.I am not a politician, nor do I hold a degree in urban planning etc, but I am a homeowner in SO. I WANT this town to thrive, I want the people who live here to BENEFIT, I want others to look us lucky souls living here and say, if only I lived there.... I hear nothing good about the BOT - maybe I am in the wrong circles. I do not know a thing about how they are voted it, or kept in, and I will make an effort to educate myself on this issue,but if California can force an election to get out an inept Governor, surely there must be a law/statute somewhere that allows something similar to happen here. In effect we are all shareholders in this town. We all pay taxes. If SO was a company, the CEO/CFO etc would have been voted off/fired by the board long ago... I know the people living here all have an image of how our town should be, some people are even qualified to work out how this can be done. Let the community speak, let the people who CARE about this town put their thoughts forward. I apologise if my post is misinformed, but I just feel so sad that a town with the potential of SO is being let to rot, and I truly don't know, and can't understand, why....and yes, the fencing encroaching onto Vose is dangerous, I saw a car almost hit someone there last week.... |
JoRo
Citizen
Username: Autojoe51
Post Number: 81
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 5:52 pm: |
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soparents,
i think that it would be hard for a reasonable person to look at south orange and see anything but what you're describing -- squandered potential. fortunately, it's not too late. you can attend the BOT meetings (see calendar on the left side column of http://www.southorange.org/) and make your opinions known. Invite friends and get them involved. Call your Trustees. Write your paper. Probably naive, but if enough voices ask for the same thing, we just might see some progress. For all the Trustees know, save for the "usual suspects" at meetings, they are doing a heck of a job ... |
Soparents
Citizen
Username: Soparents
Post Number: 7
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 5:57 pm: |
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JoRo,
Thank you. I do care, and I know the majority (At least I hope I know...!!) of people care. I will check out the BOT schedule and will attend. We have a town which could be something so special - let's get the people here to see it!!! Thank you again. |
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