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Message |
    
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1536
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 8:56 pm: | 
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You may ask why this is posted in the South Orange thread. Good question. Maybe the homeowner with the Booker campaign sign in the front of their house can answer. Funny thing is that four years ago a Sharpe James sign was posted across the street. Sharpe hasn't officially announced yet. BTW, I hope Booker wins. I just don't think it's appropriate to have campaign signs for other municipal elections in SO. |
vermontgolfer
Supporter
Username: Vermontgolfer
Post Number: 361
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 10:17 pm: |
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Spitz,
Let Mr. Gross know where the sign is posted, I'm sure it will be taken care of.
We have enough of our own politics, God knows we don't need anyone else's. |
Joe Krause
Citizen
Username: Wkrause3
Post Number: 23
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 10:32 pm: |
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Sharp has thrown his hat into the ring just last week.
Sharpe James will seek re-election to a sixth term as Mayor of Newark, setting up a rematch with Cory Booker. State Sen. Ronald Rice also filed, but if James stays in the race, observers expect Rice to drop out. (03/16/06)
This is going to cause Ron Rice to not run and allow for a Booker, Rice Jr. Ticket.
I think its great to have a sign for Booker on your lawn because what happens to Newark affects us all in South Orange.
I think its ludicrous that you would ask to have a sign taken down. Someone's sign on their own property is none of your concern. I hope more people would be more politically aware and maybe think outside the box. As interesting as South Orange is there are much bigger issues at hand.
As you know the majority of your taxes go to Abbott School districts. Billions of dollars are given to Newark each year which could go to many other programs.
If Newark elects a mayor who allows for the reform of education it would in turn lower YOUR taxes and you will thank the day you saw that Booker sign on the lawn.
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Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1537
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 10:43 pm: |
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Isn't the purpose of political signs in municipal elections to try to get the residents of that town to vote for their candidate in the local election? This holds true whether it's Newark, Millburn or any other town other than South Orange. |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 8935
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 10:45 pm: |
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How on earth could John Gross interfere with a homeowner's political speech? |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1538
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 10:54 pm: |
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Dave - Actually, there are ordinances regarding when and how political signs can be displayed. I really don't know if those ordianances are applicable to out-of-town elections.
It probably bugs me more because I think that political signs are visual pollution, although they are allowed. That's why there are limits on when and how they can be displayed.
Can you answer the question why a sign endorsing a candidate in another municipality is appropriate? It may show that that person supports the candidate, but that person can't even vote in the Newark election (or can/do they?) |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3599
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 11:05 pm: |
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Chapter 92-162:
Signs concerning political candidates and public issues:
[1] May not be in excess of 12 square feet in size.
[2] May be erected or posted for a period not exceeding 30 days.
[3] Must be removed no more than five days following the event.
[4] May not be erected in the Township unless the candidate or an official representative of the candidate has indicated the intention to display such signs by filing a notice of such intention with the Village Clerk. Such notice of intention shall be accompanied by a fee of $25, which shall be paid at least five days before any sign is erected. [Amended 9-25-1996 by Ord. No. 96-34] |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 8937
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 11:18 pm: |
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Nothing there about supporting out of town campaigns. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3600
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 11:20 pm: |
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You really think Booker (or his representative) has paid $25 to South Orange?
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Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1539
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 11:21 pm: |
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Joe - FWIW, I share your opinion that what happens in Newark affects us all. In various posts in the past I have so stated. I'm a real rooter for Newark, and although I'm sure a lot of people living in Newark don't think so, there are an awful lot of people who feel the same way. I would love to see Newark prosper. I would love to see Cory Booker elected, and I hope that the voters in Newark have the courage and wisdom to do so. But I don't think political signs in SO for out-of-town elections are appropriate. |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 8938
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 11:24 pm: |
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I doubt anyone paid anything and I doubt #4 is even constitutional. |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1540
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 11:27 pm: |
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Dave - I think that most municipalities in N.J. have similar or identical ordinances regarding political signs. |
Nohero
Supporter
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 5203
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 11:33 pm: |
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Quote:I think that political signs are visual pollution, although they are allowed.
Just a few random thoughts about signs:
If someone is painting at my house, or doing carpentry, or working on the roof - they can put up a sign. So, that's allowed.
I have a "Be About Peace" sign in front of my house - I don't think that any local government can legislate against expressing that point of view. So, that's allowed.
If you wanted to show off the accomplishments of your son or daughter, in a sport played here in town, you could put up a sign for that. That's allowed.
If someone wants to put up a Corey Booker sign, it doesn't matter whether it makes much of a contribution to the campaign. A person should have the right to use their own property to express their views, right? So, of course, that's allowed. |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1541
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 11:44 pm: |
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Nohero - As MHD cites above, there are limitations on when and how political signs can be displayed.
SO has adopted an ordinace that a painter's sign, contractor sign, etc. can only be displayed while the contractor is actually performing work at the site.
(I'm not sure, but I think Maplewood has a similar ordinance.)
There is always the question of balancing freedom of speech vs. other factors. As you know, most times a balance is found. I'm not quite sure how out-of-town political signs fit in the picture. Most towns are grateful when there is an off year and they don't have to put up with political signs. This year SOMA has the BOE election. Signs are up. Fine.
Edited to add: Based on my experience in other towns, South Orange (I can't speak for Maplewood but I think it's similar) has less political signs than a lot of other towns.
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Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 8940
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 11:49 pm: |
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There's no legal basis to restrict political speech. Size of a sign, sure. But not content. |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1542
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 11:54 pm: |
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Maybe the problem will go away when Sharpe sends some of his thugs to SO to take down the Booker signs. |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 8941
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 11:57 pm: |
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Quote:Displaying a sign from one's own residence often carries a message quite distinct from placing the same sign someplace else, or conveying the same text or picture by other means. Precisely because of their location, such signs provide information about the identity of the "speaker." As an early and eminent student of rhetoric observed, the identity of the speaker is an important component of many attempts to persuade. A sign advocating "Peace in the Gulf" in the front lawn of a retired general or decorated war veteran may provoke a different reaction than the same sign in a 10-year-old child's bedroom window or the same message on a bumper sticker of a passing automobile. An espousal of socialism may carry different implications when displayed on the grounds of a stately mansion than when pasted on a factory wall or an ambulatory sandwich board.
Residential signs are an unusually cheap and convenient form of communication. Especially for persons of modest means or limited mobility, a yard or window sign may have no practical substitute. Even for the affluent, the added costs in money or time of taking out a newspaper advertisement, handing out leaflets on the street, or standing in front of one's house with a hand-held sign may make the difference between participating and not participating in some public debate. Furthermore, a person who puts up a sign at her residence often intends to reach neighbors, an audience that could not be reached nearly as well by other means.
A special respect for individual liberty in the home has long been part of our culture and our law. That principle has special resonance when the government seeks to constrain a person's ability to speak there. Most Americans would be understandably dismayed, given that tradition, to learn that it was illegal to display from their window an 8- by 11-inch sign expressing their political views. Whereas the government's need to mediate among various competing uses, including expressive ones, for public streets and facilities is constant and unavoidable, its need to regulate temperate speech from the home is surely much less pressing.
Our decision that Ladue's ban on almost all residential signs violates the First Amendment by no means leaves the City powerless to address the ills that may be associated with residential signs. It bears mentioning that individual residents themselves have strong incentives to keep their own property values up and to prevent "visual clutter" in their own yards and neighborhoods -- incentives markedly different from those of persons who erect signs on others' land, in others' neighborhoods, or on public property. Residents' self-interest diminishes the danger of the "unlimited" proliferation of residential signs that concerns the City of Ladue. We are confident that more temperate measures could in large part satisfy Ladue's stated regulatory needs without harm to the First Amendment rights of its citizens. As currently framed, however, the ordinance abridges those rights.
CITY OF LADUE v. MARGARET P. GILLEO
SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
512 U.S. 43
June 13, 1994, Decided
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/ladue.html |
Joe Krause
Citizen
Username: Wkrause3
Post Number: 24
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 12:05 am: |
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Dave I am happy we are exactly on the same page. I am extremely politically active and to hear people want to limit awareness of elections makes me crazy.
MHD how does that #4 point apply to national elections and state elections?
It is hard enough to get people out to the polls on any issue and if someone takes the time to display a sign, its a step in the right direction
If the person has a sign chances are someone has spoken to them and they are in the "know" I wish more people would start learning the issues and stop worrying about the "visual pollution" that lawn signs produce.
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jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 501
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 7:06 am: |
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I wonder if a Booker sign in a town in which he is not running for office qualifies as a political sign. It strikes me more as an advertisement...albeit political. If it is on a street through which Newark residents are likely to pass, then it has advertising power. And the rules of what sort of advertising signs are permitted on front lawns might apply, no different from painters signs, real estate signs, etc. Just my opinion. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3601
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 7:38 am: |
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Quote:MHD how does that #4 point apply to national elections and state elections?
Joe - Great question!
Please note that I simply provided the relavent ordinance that I found online. I wasn't taking a position on ths issue one way or the other. |
Soda
Supporter
Username: Soda
Post Number: 3634
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 8:39 am: |
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I happen to object to the miriad signs put up in front of homes as advertising for the contractors who who may be working there. In most cases they are just as obtrusive as any campaign sign, and even worse, sometimes the contractors won't even take on a job unless the homeowner agrees to allow the display to remain there a week or more after the work is finished and the workmen have departed.
Before anybody tries to stifle my rights to free public speech on my own property, I'd like to see some municipal action against these adverts. I'm putting my old Corzine sign back out on my lawn today, and he ain't running for the BOE... Just try and stop me.
-s.
BTW: Booker rocks. |
Phenixrising
Citizen
Username: Phenixrising
Post Number: 1471
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 9:00 am: |
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I wonder if a Booker sign in a town in which he is not running for office qualifies as a political sign. It strikes me more as an advertisement...albeit political.
DITTO! And Ditto to what Joe said.
I agree that the homeowner has the right to display the "Booker" sign. The future and leadership of Newark could affect us in the future, since a good chunk of our taxes goes into supporting this City. I'm hoping one day Newark could flourish financially, thus depending on OUR tax dollars.
BOOKER FOR MAYOR!!! |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1543
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 9:03 am: |
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Soda - SO has an ordinance about contractor's signs which is not enforced. I've seen signs put up weeks before work even begins.
I've aleady expressed my opinion about Booker. Ron Rice Jr. (not his jerky father) is one of the most impressive young men I've seen, and he's running with Cory. Newark would be lucky to have them represent the city.
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Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 951
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 9:22 am: |
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Booker has a great jump shot
So that would be my vote if I were a Newark resident. |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1544
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 9:24 am: |
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Phenix - I've already expressed similar feelings. I don't know if you have ever read newarkspeaks.com. You probably have, but if not, you probably should. Most of the posters are quite articulate and passionate about Newark. One thing that comes across is that they are highly suspicious and resentful about people, including AAs, who do not live in Newark. They really resent the out ot towners (once again including AAs) who have jobs in the city, e,g, teachers, etc. |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1545
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 9:39 am: |
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Yeh Hoops - I've seen that commercial. |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1546
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 11:00 am: |
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Joe - In your post of 12:05 a.m., you say "it's hard enought to get people out to the polls." How does a political sign involving an out of town election accomplish that? I had asked you that before, and I don't think you responded.
Dave - It seems to me that there are parts of the City of Ladue case which actually reinforce some kind of restrictions on out of town elections.
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SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 128
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 11:49 am: |
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Interesting comments, more than I would have thought initially likely.
Spitz, one reason to have signs for out-of-town elections, is to encourage support in other ways: donations of money, time, etc.
It seems pretty cheesy to me that the town would require a fee for political signs if it does not require a fee for commercial advertising signs (painters, roofers, etc.). It would be a statement that the town favors commercial advertising over civic engagement and has no shame in the crassness of the choice. I am skeptical about why the town needs $25 for any sign, anyway, and I do wonder about the constitutionality of the 4th part of the ordinance MHD listed.
I also hope Newark becomes more of what it once was. Booker seems most likely to make that possible. “Street Fight” pretty well documented what a bane on Newark James is. Given SO’s proximity to Newark, the amount of the state treasury and tax revenues wasted in it, the degraded life of so many in it, anyone with an ounce of compassion would hope that it emerges from its miserable decline. Booker provides the best hope for that. His running mate, who I knew nothing about, sounds interesting also. |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1547
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 12:01 pm: |
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SOrising - To learn a little more about Ron Rice Jr., go to newarkspeaks.com and go through some of the threads. Ron Rice Jr. posts quite frequently and I just think he is an exceptional person.
Your second paragraph probably makes the most sense yet. I'm still not thrilled about the prospect of out of town election signs becoming more prominent in the future.
I have to empasize once again that I am really rooting for Newark. It has such potential. I really get infuriated with those clowns on city council who are the most highly paid concil people in the U.S. (I think) and really don't seem to be interested in anything other than their own monetary gain. |
Lucy
Supporter
Username: Lucy
Post Number: 3196
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 12:11 pm: |
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I think we have enough problems getting people in SO to even vote! A wake up call might be needed! |
Kitchenguru
Citizen
Username: Kitchenguru
Post Number: 29
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 12:26 pm: |
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I think that ordinance is referring to signs put up by the candidates not homeowners.
Personally I find all the signs ugly and divisive.
I totally support Cory who happens to be a friend of mine but I will not have a sign of any kind in front of my house not even "for sale."
Speaking of lawns,do the people around here have a problem with keeping their front lawns looking decent, my God these houses are a fortune, when will they start looking that way? |
aquaman
Supporter
Username: Aquaman
Post Number: 781
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 2:48 pm: |
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Dearest Kitchenguru:
I find your abhorrance of lawn signs interesting. You won't even put up a sign as a favor to your friend? Or advertise that your house is for sale? How come?
I also find it interesting that the geniuses in Village Hall crafted an ordinance against illegal signs, but have no way of enforcing it. Who are they going to fine - the homeowner or the candidate? If I place a lawn sign on your lawn tomorrow at 10:00 am and then complain to Village Hall, can they fine you? Or Cory Booker? Or are they allowed to confiscate the presumably private property? It's a ludicrous ordinance.
So, why do you object so vehemently to the signage?
<thankey>
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Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 2643
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 2:54 pm: |
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Who knew Booker was running for mayor? |
Kitchenguru
Citizen
Username: Kitchenguru
Post Number: 30
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 3:25 pm: |
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Aquaman,
I grew up in NYC where anonymity and privacy give
that warm fuzzy feeling.
K |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1548
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 5:53 pm: |
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Out of curiousty, I sent an email to John Gross earler today asking him what the law was on the subject being discussed. I didn't mention the address, but really was curious as to the law. I haven't yet heard back from Mr. Gross.
Hey, if people feel it's appropriate to allow political signs from all over to be placed on front lawns in SO, I'm not going to the trenches. I personally don't think it's appropriate and Joe hasn't yet answered my question as to how a Booker (or any other out of town) sign is going to get voters to the polls.
I wouldn't put up such a sign, out of respect to my neighbors, regardless of how strongly I felt about an out of town candidate.
Nohero - The "Be About Peace" signs are in a different category. First of all, they're pretty subtle, and probably were designed to be on purpose. More importantly, they're meant to get people thinking about something about which they can do something. That's a lot different than an out-of-town political sign.
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Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 8945
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 6:52 pm: |
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People can contribute to the Booker campaign. |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1549
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 7:08 pm: |
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Sharpe has always said Booker's support is from out-of-towners. (He actually has been a lot more nasty than that.) |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 8946
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 7:14 pm: |
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Who knows... maybe Sharpe planted that sign? ;-) |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1550
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 7:44 pm: |
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As I said earlier, four years ago the house right across the street had a Sharpe James sign. It was almost as if it were a grudge match. |
Joe Krause
Citizen
Username: Wkrause3
Post Number: 25
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 8:04 pm: |
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Spitz sorry that I did not get back to you in a more timely fashion.
Political Signs cause a word of mouth campaign to begin and as you can see through this 39 post thread, it works.
You never know whos seeing a sign and if one sign can spark this much debate, the sign has answered your question |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3612
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 8:22 pm: |
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Quote:I'm still not thrilled about the prospect of out of town election signs becoming more prominent
Kinda like "out of town" screennames on Message Boards, eh?  |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1552
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 8:30 pm: |
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Like "Eliot Spitzer?"
Joe - I started the thread just to spark debate. I knew what I was doing. (Yeah, right.) |
Joe Krause
Citizen
Username: Wkrause3
Post Number: 26
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 9:27 pm: |
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Ha Ha anyone whos on this board is above the awareness curve to begin with so its great.
On issues that matter only certain people post which i find very interesting. |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1554
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 9:43 pm: |
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Joe - I have to tell you, when I drive through Newark it's painful. And I really get upset because the politicians have been so greedy. It's all about the money. Politicalmon has given a good summary of the history in another thread. But it's really up to the people of Newark to show some courage and elect new leaders who are more concerned about the welfare of the city rather than lining their pockets. |
Joe Krause
Citizen
Username: Wkrause3
Post Number: 27
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 11:41 pm: |
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Spitz- I love Newark so much.. when I am out of town I always say I am from Newark so that people have a frame of reference.
There are so many great things about the city (mainly the Rodizo) that makes me love it so much.
So I ask all of you to go to Top's Diner Once and you will wonder why you didnt set up shop in Newark to begin with |
Sheena Collum SHU
Citizen
Username: Sheena_collum
Post Number: 612
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 12:23 am: |
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Mr. Booker came on campus a few weeks ago and spoke at a program hosted by the Martin Luther King Scholarship Association. Although I was unable to attend, the students said he was nothing short of amazing.
Joe - You're a Booker fan? - ahh... he does have some very 'conservative' tendencies but that's a debate for another day
And... I think any restriction of political signs is a violation of our 1st amendment rights... seriously. |
Kitchenguru
Citizen
Username: Kitchenguru
Post Number: 31
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 7:56 am: |
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Sheena,
Please start the "debate" today
Is Maize still open in Newark? Love it there.
Back on topic:
Spitz,
Why should the citizens of Newark believe the politicians any more than any other of our myriad
towns? New Jersey is the Capital of Corruption.
I do think Corey is the real deal. There are lots of cultural issues in Newark that he couldn't overcome last time, hopefully this time things have changed. |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1556
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 8:26 am: |
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Just a question, not meant to stir things up - Would the responses have been the same if there had been a lot of Sharpe signs put up?
Edited to add: Or signs for Newark Council candidates, the Orange mayorial candidates, etc. |
Sheena Collum SHU
Citizen
Username: Sheena_collum
Post Number: 616
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 12:50 pm: |
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Spitz - I would support someone's right to put up a 'Pro-Bush' sign in their yard... that's a huge stretch for me. So yes, put the signs up... shoe polish the car... be politically involved any way possible.
I understand that these are candidates in other municipalities but we truly are so interconnected across NJ and have a stake in all these elections. |
Joe Krause
Citizen
Username: Wkrause3
Post Number: 29
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 10:04 pm: |
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The Booker election has gotten national attention through the academy award nominated "Street Fight." The movie made Booker into a hero and someone everyone can relate to.
I dont think that orange elections will catch fire like this current situation in
Newark. |
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