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Soparents
Citizen
Username: Soparents
Post Number: 46
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 6:44 pm: | 
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I have no idea which is why I was asking. The person talking to me was pretty adament that is was a memorial... However, we can all be adamant about things and and still be wrong... |
Tracey Randinelli
Citizen
Username: Traceyr
Post Number: 13
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 6:46 pm: |
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Ref: Heeheehee....
Actually, we didn't expect to see it...we were in the city for dinner, came out of the #6 train onto 68th st. and there it was. Thank goodness for camera phones! |
Peggy-O
Citizen
Username: Peggyo
Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 6:49 pm: |
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Here's a really long first post -
I've been reading MOL posts about the proposed Tau for a long time. I also have watched several heated Village BOT meetings from home, including the one in which Cheryl Arnedt gave her phone number and said she'd be happy to answer all questions.
So, after seeing all the unanswered questions posted here, I made an appt with Cheryl Arnedt and told her I planned to post what I learned from her on MOL in the hopes of helping. I asked her why she didn't post replies directly and she seemed to think the few dissenters on MOL didn't really want information and just would find another angle to work at until the project was stopped. She said she doesn't read MOL about this project anymore.
I suggested she should have a website to which people could go to get solid facts instead of having hearsay repeated here. She doesn't have the time or budget and apparently would rather host people individually at her home to answer their questions and see the architect's model.
I saw the architect's model that SOLady posted pictures of, which Cheryl assured me were true to scale; it was hard to believe. I was very surprised at how much smaller the statue seemed than I had pictured, and also to see how roomy the area seemed. (BTW, when I saw it, the parked cars were parked correctly, but that's a small matter.) I also learned that yes, the existing trees will be removed and replaced with fairly mature "Ginko" trees because they will not be so dense with leaves as to block site of the sculpture.
I asked Cheryl how the fund raising was going and she said "very well" and told me that the black tie Gala benefit, to be held May 13th, is already sold out and she hasn't even sent out any invitations yet.
She also said something about planning a Fall "event" for publicity after I mentioned that part of MOL poster's reason for doubting her group's ability to raise the funds was because no fund raising has been evident to date.
I asked if the foundation were able to raise MORE than the promised $160K, would they be willing to reimburse the taxpayers some or all of the $250,000 we are being asked to pay and she said maybe up to $50,000 but definitely not all. She was very clear that because the township will receive so many "benefits" to having the sculpture installed that they really must have to pay for a large portion of it and she claimed that there has never been a 100% privately funded piece of artwork installed in a town without the town sharing the costs.
When I asked if her committee would be open to public input regarding placement of the sculpture, she said there already had been public input (and sited her presentations to Main Street South Orange, Montrose and "other" neighborhood associations, the Village BOT and the Historic Preservation group).
She said that the placement absolutely couldn't be changed at this point because she believes the TS estate would just take back their gift
Here are some quotes from the 6 page FAQ document:
Quote:HOW WAS THE SCULPTURE CHOSEN? -
* Because of the market value of Smith's work, the LPMAF set out to get the rights to fabricate one of Smith's sculptures. The cost of an existing work would have been too prohibitive. For example: The National Gallery of Art in Washington, DC purchased Smith’s "Die" three years ago for $700,000.
* Once the LPMAF proved its ability to raise funds at its kick-off gala in 2002, the Tony Smith Estate agreed to come to South Orange and survey sites and, in turn, donate the rights to a Smith sculpture that would be site-specific.
* Jane, Kiki and Seton Smith visited South Orange after a long absence. They reminisced at the Town Hall Deli and went back to the old neighborhood. After their visit, they chose "Tau" from among Smith’s works still available for fabrication. The site was selected then the sculpture was chosen to fit that site. The LPMAF worked closely with the town and the Tony Smith Estate to secure the gift of the sculpture "Tau". The gift from the Smith Estate is substantial: the Village is getting a museum-quality sculpture worth $500,000-$600,000 for $85,000 - the cost of fabrication.
* Other considerations for choosing "Tau": (1) people cannot walk, sit or skateboard on it: (2) "Tau" is prominent enough to be seen from South Orange Avenue but not stories high, as some Smith sculptures are; (3) fabrication costs are not prohibitive - some cost $1 million+ to fabricate.
WHO CHOSE THE SCULPTURE SITE AND WHY?
* Three entities worked together to choose the sculpture site in front of the Sloan Street train station: representatives of the town government, the LPMAF and Jane, Kiki and Seton Smith of the Tony Smith Estate.
* Many sites were considered in addition to the Sloan Street site: by the flagpole opposite Village Hall, in Meadowlands Park, at the corner of Valley Street and South Orange Avenue in front of the PNC bank building, in front of SOPAC, in place of the obelisk in the NJ Transit parking lot, Grove Park, etc.
The three groups chose the Sloan St. site for the following reasons:
* The sculpture will get the most visibility at that site - maximizing its benefits to the town
* It will attract anchor stores to the downtown
* The redesigned site provides a beautiful and visible "front door" to SOPAC
* Visitors and SOPAC patrons from other towns will see "Tau" and learn about the famous native son who worked and created here
* The Sloan Street site gets the most foot traffic
* It is visible from the train tracks, giving it that much more exposure
* Once SOPAC opens, the existing site has very limited points of ingress and egress for patrons. The fountain especially would pose a safety hazard with the increased pedestrian volume. The survey of current use at the site indicates that most pedestrians step over the fountain, which is rarely in use. Once pedestrian volume increases with the opening of SOPAC, the fountain will pose a significant hazard for patrons and visitors.
HOW MUCH IS THIS COSTING THE TOWN?
* The Tony Smith Sculpture Project is being funded by a combination of municipal and private funds. The town approved $250,000 toward the sculpture project. The balance will be raised privately.
* The current estimate for fabrication, transportation, installation and site construction is $410,000. Project costs over and above $250,000 will be contributed by the LPMAF. The LPMAF has spent monies to commission and implement the site design, and the foundation's fundraising plans will yield the balance over and above $250,000
* Maintenance costs for the redesigned site are projected to be less than the current site. Fountain maintenance in particular is very costly, and plowing on a level and clear ground will be much easier.
* The town's insurance company estimates that "Tau" will have zero impact on the Village's insurance premium.
It really is a shame that the people behind the Tony Smith Sculpture Project don't have a website for residents to see all the materials I was given at my meeting and also to see photographs of all the different views of the model. They could also have something written by the architect who created the model and drawings (Ann Kearsley Design, 76 Munjoy Street, Portland, ME 04101) to verify that they are true to scale.
Ms. Arnedt seems like a very nice and dedicated lady who has put her heart and soul into helping the Lennie Pierro Memorial Arts Foundation Project realize a huge dream of Lennie Pierro's before he died. She seems to think that she has done nothing but educate the public and make herself available for questions, but the fact remains that many of us had never heard of this project, especially that it would cost our town so much money.
I told her that in my opinion, most of the people against this project are not so much opposed to having a Tony Smith sculpture in town, but that they were very angry with the Village trustees and President Calabrese. I told her that in the context of the state of our library, our town hall, the old Stone House that supposedly they are going to try to resurrect, the terribly slow rate of redevelopment, the money being spent for SOPAC and the fact that tax-dollars had already recently been spent on improving the exact same space her project would occupy, it is no wonder that there is strong and angry opposition to the project at this time!
However, I do appreciate what Cheryl and others are trying to do - something noble in the memory of two talented artists (Tony Smith and Lennie Pierro), and they really do believe it will make the proposed site much better.
I'll leave the email address if anyone has any unanswered questions for Ms. Arnedt tonysmithproject@verizonmail.com.
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MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3668
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 7:02 pm: |
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Peggy - Good first post.
Quote:She was very clear that because the township will receive so many "benefits" to having the sculpture installed that they really must have to pay for a large portion of it.
If SHE and the handful of vocal supporters want this so badly & they are able to "sell-out" a fundraiser, pay the WHOLE BILL and everyone will be happy. The statement above sounds like a cop-out to me.
I agree that many people (myself included) have nothing against having a statue in town - we just shouldn't be LIED to about the funding & then be forced to pay for it with no public discussion.
I repeat the direct quotes given on Feb 27 by the BOT when asked for the source of the "$250,000" for the Tony Smith sculpture:
“It is coming from a grant that we received” (Calabrese)
“The first $250 thousand was a grant” (Rosen)
“The Statue obtained by a grant and and then supported by Committee”(Rosen)
“This money came from a Federal Grant” (Rosen)
“The Village is not going to spend a cent of taxpayer money” (Rosen)
“It did so without sacrificing anything we would ordinary provide” (Taylor)
“The money could only be used for that purpose We did not take tax dollars” (Taylor)
“The money was given to us for the sculpture” (Taylor)
When questioned 2 weeks later, they suddenly changed their story & said they were "misinformed".
Why is the governing body spending huge sums of money without being correctly informed about the source of the money?
If someone is "misinforming" them, why are they still employed by the Village?
If they are not "misinformed", why are they LYING to the public when questioned? |
Peggy-O
Citizen
Username: Peggyo
Post Number: 2
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 7:10 pm: |
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MHD, (First, thanks - I was a little afraid of being "flamed".)
I completely agree that the anger is against our local government both for past actions, current and who-knows what future actions!
The timing of this project is most unfortunate, because IF we could better afford it, we'd all probably applaud this same arts group!
PS. Someone above posted a comment that the sculpture would be a very large slap in the face to our brave firefighters - a point I hadn't even considered! And I completely agree that it would; how long have they been squashed into those trailers anyway? Are any MOL posters SO firefighters? |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3670
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 7:18 pm: |
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Oh, BTW...to my knowledge, the Gazebo is NOT a 9/11 Memorial. It existed prior to 9/11.
The only 9/11 "Memorial" I am aware of in town is in Waterlands Park (behind Gaslight Commons). |
Soparents
Citizen
Username: Soparents
Post Number: 47
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 7:32 pm: |
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MHD - Thank you
I will pass that on now. Things are confused enough right now without something like this being put about and I will be more than happy to clear it up my end.
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Matt Foley
Citizen
Username: Mattfoley
Post Number: 598
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 7:39 pm: |
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Soparents, I have a 20 year old version of South Orange Townopoly. We will be playing it at Bunny's next Friday night.
Best part is that approx. 3 businesses from that game still exist in town. |
jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 518
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 7:45 pm: |
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I know that when the fire dept had a 9/11 memorial ceremony, it was held by the gazebo. Hard to do that by Tau.
On another issue, I hope the ginko trees they plan to plant are male. Ginko trees are apparently male and female, and make note of the female reproduction process:
"Ginkgos are dioecious, with separate sexes, some trees being female and others being male. Male plants produce small pollen cones with sporophylls each bearing two microsporangia spirally arranged around a central axis. Female plants do not produce cones. Two ovules are formed at the end of a stalk, and after pollination, one or both develop into seeds. The seed is 1.5-2 cm long. Its outer layer (the sarcotesta) is light yellow-brown, soft, and fruit-like. It is plum-like and attractive, but the seedcoat contains butanoic acid and smells like rancid butter (which contains the same chemical) when fallen on the ground. "
BTW, did the cost include the purchase and planting of the ginko trees? And what of the other trees which have finally grown? To be discarded? There are some of us who prefer natural art to Tony Smith's. Maybe the Ginko's will work their own revenge on the sculpture. Rancid butter, anyone? |
LibraryLady(ncjanow)
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3178
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 7:54 pm: |
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FYE<
While there was one 9/11 memorial near the Gazebo, there were also ones held behind the Train Station at the Oval there and also at the Playground by Waterland Park.
We have no loss of spaces to hold memorial services. |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 164
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 8:20 pm: |
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jayjay, more graphically, the fruit of gingkos falls all over the place and smells pugently like vomit. I love gingkos and was surprised by this repellant aspect of them on a street I used to live on. |
Peggy-O
Citizen
Username: Peggyo
Post Number: 3
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 8:30 pm: |
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I was told they would all be MALE ginkos.
I also asked what would be done with the existing trees to which I received a shrug.
I do think the cost of tree replacement is included in the projected $410,000. |
Stevef
Citizen
Username: Stevef
Post Number: 193
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 8:41 pm: |
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How about NO ginkos, NO sculpture AND use the funds raised to FIX THE DEPLORABLE BATHROOMS IN OUR SCHOOLS!!!!!
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Soparents
Citizen
Username: Soparents
Post Number: 49
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 8:56 pm: |
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Who will pay for the annual upkeep of this item, including but not limited to tree care, cleaning the area, cleaning the statue of bird doo-doo, graffiti if someone is able to get to it. Also, I can't see from the rendition, how close will this be to the train platform. Are we likely to get some poor soul out for a Darwin award trying to jump off the platform and onto the statue? It looks very shiny and slippery... |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1601
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 9:14 pm: |
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Peggy-O: Great first post. Thank you. I don't think anyone who comes on MOL and presents the facts in a truly objective manner has to worry about being flamed. I know that a lot of people may find this hard to believe, but I really think all people want is the truth and accurate information.
You are definitely correct that the way people had been deceived by the BOT is a big problem, even for people who would otherwise be in favor of such a project.
The other problem is that Tau has in fact served as watershed event where South Orange residents are finally stepping up and questioning the modus operandi of the BOT and VP in particular, which seems to be that the residents of South Orange will accept anything they're told, without questioning the validity of those statements.
Once again, thank you for your post. It shows that you are objective and want to make an informed decision just as most of us do. |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1602
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 9:27 pm: |
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I do have to disagree about all the benfits the town will receive and that the location will attract anchor stores. I think that it's statemnts like this that actually turn people off. All along, it's been SOPAC which is supposed to be the big benefit to the town and what will attract businesses. This is the reason we've been told we should be content with paying $350,000 a year to subsidize SOPAC. Tau, if in fact it is installed at the Gazebo site, is not going to attract anchor stores. I think the supporters of Tau would be best advised to drop this arguement. It only works against them, IMHO. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3673
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 10:13 pm: |
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Spitz,
Didn't you hear about the following "anchor stores" coming soon to South Orange? 
Tau-get
Lord and Tau-lor
TauJ Maxx
Tau-Mart
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Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 8995
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 10:26 pm: |
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Tau-wanasaurus Wrecks? |
composerjohn
Citizen
Username: Composerjohn
Post Number: 792
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 10:33 pm: |
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groan... 
Question: my wife and I are interested in attending the BOT meeting on Monday. Is there any idea when the statue will be discussed? We have a young child and we don't want to pay for hours and hours of babysitting. |
Soparents
Citizen
Username: Soparents
Post Number: 51
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 10:35 pm: |
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I am in the same position, so we have agreed that my Husband will stay with the children and I will go. Does the statue HAVE to be discussed? Is there any way that they can "oops" run out of time and have to reschedule the discussion? |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1603
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 10:43 pm: |
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What the BOT has done in some similar situations where there has been a large audience gathered who either want to speak, or just be present to show support, is to have the public portion of the meeting as the first item. Perhaps Mark or Eric could try to work on this and post on MOL. It is the weekend, so they'll have to try to work it out on Monday. Just a suggestion. |
Soda
Supporter
Username: Soda
Post Number: 3671
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 10:47 pm: |
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-s. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3674
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 10:48 pm: |
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Spitz - or sometimes it seems like they turn up the HEAT in the room and filibuster for hours until people start to leave. 
CJ - Earlier, Kristen volunteered to babysit for people to attend the Meeting. Perhaps you can send her a Privateline?
For the record though, there is no scheduled "discussion" on the sculpture on Monday, although I bet one or more people will come to speak during "Remonstrances" on the subject - hopefully to ask why the Trustees were either uninformed or lying to the public? |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 4494
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 11:58 pm: |
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SOparents-
The 9.11 Memorial is in the NJ Transit lot behind Bunny's. |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1605
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 12:02 am: |
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MHD -I was referring to the remonstrances which could be moved to the first item - at least those people who are there who wish to speak about the sculpture. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 4495
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 12:02 am: |
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Here's our out:
In response to Peggey asking Cheryl about another locaiton for the statue:
"She said that the placement absolutely couldn't be changed at this point because she believes the TS estate would just take back their gift..."
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joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 226
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 8:34 am: |
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A gift "if" you let me shove it down your throat where and when....
jd |
Bailey
Citizen
Username: Baileymac
Post Number: 197
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 4:38 pm: |
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Something bothers me..
I took the pic on the right, SoORLady posted the pic on the left, taken of the actual model at Cheryl Arnedt's house.
How is that model of the Tau to scale?
Remeber, Spitz measured and posted that the gazebo is 12'6 wide.
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jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 520
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 4:45 pm: |
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So the fountain is dangerous to pedestrians, but Tau isn't? I can see people getting clobbered on the head by the weird angles of the thing. They'll have to cordon the sculpture off with yellow police tape or something. And they claim the town's insurance won't go up! |
joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 232
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 6:33 pm: |
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The complete description of this lesser known artist is in the petition thread.
But, we really should not celebrate this weird and hateful man.
Smith's political ideas are more elusive. He adopted an upbeat American organicism derived from Henry David Thoreau and Walt Whitman. There's nothing on record, as far as I know, to link him to his mentor Wright's notorious sympathy for Hitler and fascism. But some of Smith's doodles and offhand remarks give one pause. One of the drawings on view at MoMA is a diagram of the races, with the Jews identified as "circumscised [sic] cut off from Earth." In another drawing, from 1943, Smith develops his personal symbol, the "spiral cross," which is really nothing but a relaxed swastika. Traveling in Germany after the war he felt an uneasy admiration for Hitler's Haus der Kunst exhibition hall in Munich--"As you may have guessed," he wrote to the painter Barnett Newman, "the thing as a whole was very like the church [design] I sent you"--and for Albert Speer's gigantic stadium at Nuremberg. Such remarks inspire Storr's rather defensive observation that "unlike fascist art and architecture, Smith's sculptures and buildings were insistently built to human rather than superhuman scale."
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joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 233
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 6:36 pm: |
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Broken down to simplify reading this material:
original still on petition thread.
There's nothing on record, as far as I know, to link him to his mentor Wright's notorious sympathy for Hitler and fascism.
But some of Smith's doodles and offhand remarks give one pause. One of the drawings on view at MoMA is a diagram of the races, with the Jews identified as "circumscised [sic] cut off from Earth."
In another drawing, from 1943, Smith develops his personal symbol, the "spiral cross," which is really nothing but a relaxed swastika. Traveling in Germany after the war he felt an uneasy admiration for Hitler's Haus der Kunst exhibition hall in Munich
"As you may have guessed," he wrote to the painter Barnett Newman, "the thing as a whole was very like the church [design] I sent you"--and for Albert Speer's gigantic stadium at Nuremberg.
Such remarks inspire Storr's rather defensive observation that "unlike fascist art and architecture, Smith's sculptures and buildings were insistently built to human rather than superhuman scale."
We really need this guy's metal in town.
jd |
The Mighty Tau
Citizen
Username: The_mighty_tau
Post Number: 4
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 9:30 pm: |
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Nevermind how big I am, I'm going to squash your teeny gazebo, empty South Orange with my overwhelming tax burden, but yet bring droves of students to the area to coat me with their glorious spray paint.
Perhaps if I'm lucky I'll even have dogs pee on me, pigeons crap on me, and South Orange won't be able to afford to have it's minions clean me.
Ahhh I can see it now, art critics will come from far and wide to bask in the glow of The Mighty Tau, I'll be written about in art journals around the world, then everyone will know that The Mighty Tau is in South Orange NJ, they will know, they wil know, they will know, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
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wendy
Supporter
Username: Wendy
Post Number: 2180
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 10:13 pm: |
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Best line in this whole thread was from the OP's first post: "ferric overkill."
Rings true on many levels.
Good luck South Oranginas. |
Matt Foley
Citizen
Username: Mattfoley
Post Number: 604
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 10:41 pm: |
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Joel Dranove is my hero. |
AntoninaKC
Citizen
Username: Antoninakc
Post Number: 235
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 11:21 pm: |
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haha, mighty tau.. |
Debra Davidson
Citizen
Username: Peanutslady
Post Number: 146
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 4:03 pm: |
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Why doesn't South Orange put the sculpture in front of a town building? For example in front of a school or the towns senior center. This way the town would not have to spend money to tare down the beautiful gazebo next to the train station. |
SoOrLady
Citizen
Username: Soorlady
Post Number: 3145
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 4:07 pm: |
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Debra - as I understand it, there are several original works available to be copied. The committee looked at various sites around town and chose that specific piece (TAU) for that specific space. The deal will be off if we don't accept it as is. According to the committee, TAU would not fit the other locations they viewed. |
joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 236
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 5:32 pm: |
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The gift that keeps on taking.
jd |
Howard Levison
Citizen
Username: Levisonh
Post Number: 507
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 4:49 pm: |
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SoOrLady, is that hearsay or is there a report that one could view that described the process and results of the study? |
SoOrLady
Citizen
Username: Soorlady
Post Number: 3156
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 5:57 pm: |
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Howard, please contact Cheryl Arnedt - her contact info is on several threads, but I don't have it at hand. My post is what I understood from our conversation, but I did not see the actual contract with the Smith Estate. |
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