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Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1566
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 7:36 pm: | 
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This month's issue of N.J.Monthly lists the Top 100 Places to Live in New Jersey. Maplewood is listed at place 39, behind Millburn at place 38. South Orange isn't on the list. |
Spanish Inquisitor
Citizen
Username: Sinq
Post Number: 47
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 7:43 pm: |
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Because you have more craters than the moon?
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vermontgolfer
Supporter
Username: Vermontgolfer
Post Number: 367
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 7:46 pm: |
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Yeah, but wait until 'TAU' arrives, then they will come from all corners of the globe.
 |
CageyD
Citizen
Username: Cageyd
Post Number: 669
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 7:51 pm: |
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CALABRESE.....what do you have to say for yourself????? "Just wait, coming soon we'll have development."
Hear me out.
YOU ARE A FAILURE as Village President. A COMPLETE AND TOTAL FAILURE. PLEASE RESIGN - NOW! |
Suzanne Ng
Citizen
Username: Suzanneng
Post Number: 673
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 8:10 pm: |
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Spitz -- I went to www.njmonthly.com and couldn't find a link to the top 100 list. |
Frederick Schmid
Citizen
Username: Carlfrederick
Post Number: 16
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 8:18 pm: |
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What towns were higher on the list over Maplewood. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3639
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 8:34 pm: |
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Are you kidding? Calabrese will claim this as HIS victory like he did when Maplewood was named one of the Best Places to Live in America by Money Magazine. Remember?
http://www.southorangevillage.com/cgi-bin/show.cgi?tpc=129&post=131204#POST13120 4 |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1567
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 8:38 pm: |
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Suzanne - I just received the issue in the mail today. The list probably won't be on njmonthly.com until it hits the newstands.
I'm going to take a shower. I was just on the treadmill. Don't go away. |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1569
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 9:33 pm: |
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There are 7 towns in Essex County which appear on the list!
3 Essex Fells
7 West Caldwell
30 Verona
38 Millburn
39 Maplewood
43 Nutley
48 Cedar Grove
50 Livingston
52 Roseland
55 North Caldwell
66 Caldwell |
Shanabana
Citizen
Username: Shanabana
Post Number: 272
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 9:56 pm: |
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What's so great about West Caldwell? I've never been there... |
Frederick Schmid
Citizen
Username: Carlfrederick
Post Number: 17
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 10:07 pm: |
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What can Maplewood do to get to 25, then 15, and finally Number 1. How about some constructive conversation. |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1570
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 10:13 pm: |
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The list was compiled by researchers at Monmouth University's Polling Institute. They used eight categories (I'm quoting now) that would best represent the quality of life in New Jersey's 566 municiplaities. Among these are property taxes, home values, open space, crime rate and school performance.
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Mrs. Esterhouse
Citizen
Username: Robert_g
Post Number: 4
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 10:23 pm: |
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I dont know what lists you all are looking at but South Orange is #1 on a lot of lists.
Most holes in the ground...#1
Most vacant storefronts...#1
Most "Coming Soon's"...#1
Most idiotic purchases...#1 (half-million dollar statue)
Most confused new residents...(4 years and I'm only speaking for myself????? )
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Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 8960
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 10:52 pm: |
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Most officials publicly espousing nepotism. #1
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Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1803
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 11:25 pm: |
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God help us. You mean to say that there are 100 worthwile towns in this state? Hard to believe. |
FlyingSpaghettiMonst
Citizen
Username: Noodlyappendage
Post Number: 37
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 7:14 am: |
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Among these are property taxes, home values, open space, crime rate and school performance.
And South Orange is different than Maplewood in these regards exactly how?
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crabby
Citizen
Username: Crabbyappleton
Post Number: 518
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 8:05 am: |
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Essex Fells #3? Who can afford to live there? |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1573
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 8:11 am: |
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The numbers used by the Monmouth University Polling Institute in each of the eight areas are shown for each of the 100 towns. The survey seems to be pretty objective. Since South Orange is not shown, I can't tell you where the differences are. Of course, school scores are the same. I know that the median property taxes in South Orange are higher. Although it's usually a point of contention, the crime rate in South Orange on these kind of surveys is usually higher. |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1574
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 8:18 am: |
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The poll takes into account property values, which are the median home price and the percentage increase from 2000 to 2005. My recollection is that Maplewood homes have had a greater percentage increase that South Orange. One of you gurus out there may have the numbers. |
steel
Citizen
Username: Steel
Post Number: 1001
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 8:34 am: |
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How can such a list be compiled without subjective opinions such as quiet streets, friendly busy streets, aesthetic codes, restaurants, parks, etc etc? And how could they possibly compile such opinions in any really meaningful way ? They can't.
Although as a Maplewood resident it is nice to see and I suppose doesn't hurt the property values, I would have to say that such a list really means very little. It's really just the sort of Top-Ten or Top 100 kind of "fun thing" that magazines like to do.
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Soparents
Citizen
Username: Soparents
Post Number: 9
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 8:39 am: |
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MHD - If Mr.Calabrese is indeed to be given the credit for the Maplewood victory per your post, it is our duty as SO residents to provide the honour. I propose a door to door fund drive to gather what spare cash is available after paying our taxes, to buy Mr.Calabrese a home in the town he loves so much, Maplewood... Maybe the new owner of the home Mr.Calabrese vacates will feel strongly about OUR town, and maybe one day,with some very hard work and good leadership, WE will be at the top of the list... if only... |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1575
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 8:40 am: |
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The crime rate for Maplewood is 31.0 per 1000 people. For Millburn it's 34.4 (MASH). Anybody know the crime rate per 1000 for SO?
Median taxes for Maplewood are $9,541. Median home price is $$405,000. Anybody have the numbers for SO? |
Kitchenguru
Citizen
Username: Kitchenguru
Post Number: 37
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 8:54 am: |
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South Orange just doesn't have the "cute factor"
http://money.cnn.com/best/bplive/snapshots/45012.html
This link gives all the pertinent data.
CNN Money listed South Orange as a contender for "Best Places to Live" nationwide.
Median home price in SO is listed as $457,485.00
""""""""""""""""""""Mplwd """""""""" $413,783.00
Home price gain in SO is 13.61%
""""""""""""""""Mpld is 11.16% (2-5yr gain)
So much for that "Maplewood homes have had a greater percentage increase that South Orange." theory.
Start shopping in town South Orangers and encourage new and specialty businesses to come
here and we'll even the score. I'm not touching the government issues.
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Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1576
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 9:04 am: |
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From the same money.cnn survey:
SO Personal crime risk 145 (100 is national
average)
Property crime risk 166
Maplewood Personal crime risk 6
Property crime risk 3
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Kitchenguru
Citizen
Username: Kitchenguru
Post Number: 38
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 9:07 am: |
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The crime stats vary quite a bit but they may depend on where you live in South Orange. We are bordering on Newark which is widely listed as the poorest town in the US.
I have lived in three houses in South Orange(Newstead and The Mews) one in Maplewood (near the Country Club) and one in Monclair (Estate Section)all except the Mews were robbed before 1990 and before my stay there. I think the crime stats are silly, I mean what are the crime stats for the Upper East side of NYC? |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1577
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 9:19 am: |
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I just spoke to someone at the Monmouth University Polling Institute. I tried to get the numbers for SO. She said she didn't have them, but they will be availabe when N.J.Monthly updates its website. The numbers for all 566 municipalities in N.J. will be on the website, which should be updated shortly.
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Agrackle
Citizen
Username: Agrackle
Post Number: 28
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 9:41 am: |
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Here we go again with the printing of clearly bad data. This is not an isolated incident and I don't know if these publications are overstating our crime rate or understating Maplewood's, but there is no way that Maplewood's crime rate is that different from our own.
Can't our town government be proactive on this issue? I know Mr. Rosner was kind enough to publish the actual stats a while back (and they confirmed that our crime rates are similar), but what is being done to correct these studies/surveys? We aren't going to fix what they've already printed, but at least it'll be right the next time and hopefully we make NJ's top 100 next year.
These "bad" stats are published time and time again in both regional and, sadly, national surveys. Where would you move if you looked at these stats, Maplewood probably. And I wouldn't blame you! |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1578
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 10:06 am: |
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The crime statistics used by Monmouth University Polling Institute I think are fairly uniform, i.e, crimes per 1000 people. These are different than the kind of numbers used by CNN.Money. The numbers used by N.J.Monthly should be easily verifiable. I think Maplewood has used these numbers in various discussios, particularly when the numbers show that the crime rate in Maplewood is less than Millburn. And then it's explained that the numbers in Millburn are skewed because of the crime (car thefts,etc.) at the Mall at Short Hills.
It would be nice to get an accurate handle on the crime stats in SO, so as to be able to discuss the matter with accurate information. |
pseudonymous
Citizen
Username: Berry_festival
Post Number: 238
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 10:17 am: |
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The really funny thing is that the editor in chief of New Jersey Monthly lives in South Orange!!!!!! |
Kitchenguru
Citizen
Username: Kitchenguru
Post Number: 39
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 10:21 am: |
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In answer to the question where would you live based on the crime stats:
If I were an outsider I would base my move on the expected return on my investment, which is clearly better in South Orange, beyond that I may look at these posts to get a feel for the area.
Based on the posts here by South Orange Citizens which speak so poorly about our town, I would live in Millburn. I have lived in South Orange
(Maplewood for six months) for years and will continue to do so for many reasons. The only negative I have experienced is how impossible it is to do business in Maplewood and Millburn because of the shortage of parking spaces.. |
Shanabana
Citizen
Username: Shanabana
Post Number: 275
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 10:36 am: |
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I'm with Kitchenguru.
Let's stop WHINING!!!
I realze (in my own, relatively uninformed, way) that there are problems with the South Orange gov. Development projects are ill guided. etc. However, we really do need to support retail and dining business in SO. Everybody needs to pitch in by helping those businesses out. How many of you have bought shoes for yourselves or your kids at that sports store (sorry for not remembering the name), for instance? They don't have a bad selection. I got compliments at the gym on my cool black Nike running shoes I bought there.
Businesses are in danger of folding because, supposedly, SO isn't "cute" enough. I presonally think it is not all that bad. Of course it could use cutification (beyond brining back the fake Ivy on the rr overpass), but it's not like its 14th street in Manhattan... |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1579
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 10:41 am: |
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guru - I think many of us share your feelings about SO. But it's just natural to look at a study like this and be a little disappointed that SO doesn't appear on the list. Then it's natural to start looking at where the numbers are different. It is interesting that since we share a school system, those numbers are the same.
The crime statistics are something that I have been trying to get a handle on for some time now. Mark did contact CNN/Money last year as I recall -did you get any response Mark? Do you happen to know what the crime stats are per 1000 people?
Another consideration in the poll is property taxes. A cursory review indicates that the two towns on the list with the highest median property taxes are Essex Fells with $11,689 and Millburn with $12,757. I know that the average tax in SO is about $12,300, but I don't know what the median property tax is.
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Agrackle
Citizen
Username: Agrackle
Post Number: 29
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 10:48 am: |
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I don't think an outsider would expect to get a higher return on investment in a community that "appears" to have a much higher crime rate than similar communities in the area, especially when the housing prices are roughly comparable (though when I look at current listings, Maplewood homes certainly look like they trade at a premium to SO...and Millburn homes surely do).
Like you, however, I am committed to this town and do believe that despite much of the griping on this board, this town remains a great place to live. I have wonderful neighbors, a great old house, and live within walking distance to the train that gets me to my midtown Manhattan office in under an hour.
My point is that whether the impact of this bad data is large or small on the decision making process of prospective home buyers, it is absurd to assume that there is no impact. And more important, it seems to me that it could be easily remedied with a letter or some other formal communication from the town. |
Stevie
Citizen
Username: Rodman
Post Number: 24
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 12:38 pm: |
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I see Monclair is apparently not on the list and Nutley is. That boggles my mind |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1586
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 12:53 pm: |
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I did notice that. The N.J. Monthly issue also has an article called "What Bubble?" It researched 25 towns to see which are "On the Rise, Safe Bets, On the Ground Floor, or Worth It?" Maplewood is in the "Safe Bet" category. Montclair is in the "Worth It?" category and the description is glowing. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7032
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 12:57 pm: |
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Crime stats are pretty much always higher in places with colleges/universities. It would be interesting to see that stats with "college crimes" removed. |
JoRo
Citizen
Username: Autojoe51
Post Number: 83
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 1:10 pm: |
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I would say that South Orange, specifically because it is such a mess, offers by far the greatest potential ROI. Now, to get some things happening. |
Scully
Citizen
Username: Scully
Post Number: 241
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 7:13 pm: |
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Shanabana :
I was born in Montclair, lived for six years in Caldwell then moved to West Caldwell til college.
Very nice area, very much like here (Maplewood & South Orange). Old suburbs, active communities, nice parks & maybe a slightly larger downtown.
I can easily see how they would make the list (the Caldwells). I just wonder why Montclair didn't? |
Kitchenguru
Citizen
Username: Kitchenguru
Post Number: 40
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 7:21 pm: |
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Here's a fascinating reprint of the last paragraphs of a New York Times article about South Orange printed in 1983:
Bertrand Spiotta, village president, said many South Orange residents moved into the village from the mostly Jewish Weequahic section of Newark just after World War II. Families moving in today tend to be young, many of them coming from outlying suburbs to be closer to their jobs.
A 15-minute ride on the old Erie-Lackawanna line, with its dirtygreen electric cars and rattan benches, connects South Orange with Newark's downtown Broad Street station. It takes another 15 minutes to get to the Hoboken terminal and PATH trains into Manhattan. Auto commuting also is convenient, with Interstate 280 just a few minutes away, and there is regular bus service to New York.
''For us it is perfect - it really and truly is,'' said Rhonda Balk, who three years ago moved with her husband, Louis, a New York lawyer, and their two sons into an 85-year-old, 14-room English Tudor.
Mrs. Balk's neighborhood is just a few blocks from East Orange and the slender neck of Newark's Vailsburg section that comes up to meet it. The population of those two cities has shifted in recent years and crime, along with the perception of being an unsafe place, have become significant problems there. Many outsiders believe that South Orange, too, has changed and become dangerous, but local residents disagree.
''I'm not concerned about walking around here,'' Mrs. Balk said, ''and I don't think any of my friends are either.'' Driving through the area offers a different perspective than looking at a map. The section of East Orange along South Harrison Street leading to the village is lined with new, high-rise apartment buildings and condominiums, which mingle with older buildings that seem to be well maintained. On the village's other side, Vailsburg is a mostly Italian-American section of single-family frame buildings, a still-thriving business strip, and a small-town cohesiveness foreign to the rest of Newark.
Still, the latest State Police Uniform Crime Statistics show that South Orange has a crime index rate of 74.5 crimes per 1,000 residents, the sixth highest in Essex County and substantially higher than many other suburban areas. In 1981, there were 70 robberies involving force, and 400 nonviolent burglaries.
Acting Police Chief Frederick E. Gayder explained that the crime rate was partly misleading because it reflects a change in reporting procedures rather than an increase in crime.
He also shifted blame for some of the latest crime figures reported, such as five rapes and 13 incidents of arson in 1981, to activities at Seton Hall University, which is situated completely within South Orange.
''Seton Hall has a lot of functions going on all the time,'' he said, ''and with a student population of around 10,000, things are bound to happen.''
Despite the statistics, Chief Gayder considers South Orange a safe community. ''Our greatest problems are shoplifting and juvenile crime - malicious mischief,'' he said. ''And most of the juveniles involved come from outside the village.''
The defense rests. Read it for yourself in it's entirety:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9403E3DB1338F93AA35752C0A96594826 0&sec=&pagewanted=all
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Kitchenguru
Citizen
Username: Kitchenguru
Post Number: 41
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 7:35 pm: |
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Crime in Montclair VS South Orange:
Actual Reported Population and Crimes:
Montclair, NJ vs South Orange, NJ
Population: 38,854 vs 17,017
Murder: 0 vs 1
Forcible Rape: 9 vs 2
Robbery: 53 vs 31
Assault: 79 vs 35
Burglary: 249 vs 57
Larceny Theft: 591 vs 286
Vehicle Theft: 188 vs 167
Based on 2005 crime stats.
Nice to know we are safer here than in Montclair.
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Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1590
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 7:41 pm: |
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Perhaps that's one of the reasons Montclair didn't make the list? It also has pretty high taxes. Maybe those two factors kept it off the list?
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Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1591
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 8:05 pm: |
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The information on all 566 municipalities should be on the website shortly. There is a note on the bottom of the list which describes the methodology. Maybe someone who is familiar with statistics and polling can help us understand how the rankings were arrived at.
ps - Booker Rocks
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Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1592
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 9:38 pm: |
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Based on guru's numbers for Montclair and SO, it seems that the crime rate per 1000 people is 33.10 for Montclair and 29.30 for South Orange. Let's see what the numbers are on the website. Maybe South Orange will be no. 101. |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1593
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 11:32 pm: |
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Even though the listings will not appear on the website until Tuesday March 28, there are comments about the listing on the message board of njmonthly.com. |
joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 205
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 6:24 am: |
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Where does the physical appearance of our downtown rate?
jd |
Kitchenguru
Citizen
Username: Kitchenguru
Post Number: 42
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 9:17 am: |
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I found it refreshing to read the latest crime stats for South Orange and Seton Hall are showing a great improvement since 1983(see last paragraphs of article above and compare with latest stats--widely available).
One thing hasn't changed we have a population of 16,000-17,000 according to the 2000 census, Seton Hall usually maintains a 10,000+ student population, most of whom I do not believe are residents. Their crime stats always have been and always will be reported with ours. Not to mention all the petty crime that happens in the stores like someone stealing a soda or walking out with donuts they haven't paid for from Dunkin Donuts. I personally don't want to live in some sterile suburb. If that's part of the criteria to be a top 100 town then I'll happily take a pass. I think we live in a very exciting town, and if the excitement gets too much for you then go over to Maplewood for dinner and try to find a parking space. |
Kitchenguru
Citizen
Username: Kitchenguru
Post Number: 43
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 9:27 am: |
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http://www.nj.com/weblogs/southorange/index.ssf?/mtlogs/njo_southorange/archives /2006_02.html |
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