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Message |
    
Stuart0628
Citizen
Username: Stuart0628
Post Number: 245
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 7:22 pm: | 
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Dave, I agree with your position, but I don't buy your math.
If I have a dollar bill in my pocket, I can't sell it to you today for $1.06 just because you can earn 6% on it over the next year. $200 today is worth $200, period. More likely, $100 today is worth $100.
And if we wanted to talk the value of an investment in 2006 dollars, you wouldn't use 6% unless you thought you could earn 6% above inflation, which if you are talking about investment-grade bonds you can't.
The forces of reason (that's us) will make their case most forcefully by avoiding fuzzy math, strawman arguments, name-calling, shoddy polling data and the like. |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 9106
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 7:44 pm: |
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You're right. Also, my quick math is wrong for another reason. I made it a 200/yr investment. |
LibraryLady(ncjanow)
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3236
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 9:05 pm: |
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I received the following email from Chris Benfey, the author of the Slate article refered to by Joel Dranove:
Quote:
Nancy wrote:
Dear Prof. Benfey,
The Village of South Orange New Jersey is currently in the process of purchasing a work of one of our Native Sons, Tony Smith.
This purchase, which was a part of a gift given to the Village by MR. Smith’s estate, does not come without controversy.
Several opponents of the installation of Tau are citing a reference to your 1998 in Salon, The Order of Things, http://www.slate.com/id/2928/, to imply that Mr. Smith was an anti-semite. A large on–line discussion on this can be found at www.southorangevillage.com/forum, under the South Orange Specific thread.
This situation is causing a huge schism in out community. If you are able, in any way, to weigh in on this situation, I and the community would be extraordinary grateful.
Sincerely,
Nancy Chiller Janow
Dear Nancy,
Thanks for this note and for the invitation to weigh in on the controversy. But really I have nothing useful to add. I'm no expert on Tony Smith's work; I said what I thought of the MoMA exhibition and my comments were a response to the exhibition and to materials in the catalog. I meant what I said; I wasn't trying to hint at or imply anything beyond what I said. The recent exhibition at the Guggenheim inspired a lot of good criticism, and perhaps you could get some informed opinion (far more informed than mine) from some of the people who wrote about it.
Best,
Chris Benfey
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Pdg
Citizen
Username: Pdg
Post Number: 778
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 9:07 pm: |
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And? |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 226
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 9:37 pm: |
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I second that. And?
Information that does not inform? |
LibraryLady(ncjanow)
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3237
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 9:45 pm: |
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My impression from Mr. Benfey's letter (and I leave it to you all to have your own take), is that he DIDN"T know Tony Smith, never SPOKE to Tony Smith, and he is NOT expert on Tony Smith.
His quote in the article
Quote:There's nothing on record, as far as I know, to link him to his mentor Wright's notorious sympathy for Hitler and fascism
Now that I know that F.L. Wright admired fascism do I stop being awed by Fallingwater and his other remarkable works?
Benfey also mentions in the article Smith's portrait of Jesus Christ with breasts. Does that also make Mr. Smith ANti-Catholic? (Pizzaz can chime in here on this!)
Mention is made in Mr. BEnfey's article that a symbol of Mr. Smith seems to resemble a swastika. He also mentions Smith's visit and admiration of the Pueblo Indians.
Did you know that the Pueblo Indians( as well as other tribes and other non-western civilizations) used the swastika in their artwork?
http://www.northvegr.org/lore/swastika/087.php
Anyway, I feel better that I went to the source of Joel's quotes and found that they did NOT support the idea of Mr. Smith's anti-semitism at all. |
joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 289
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 9:53 pm: |
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The huge schism is cause by the BOT lying to us, and trying to ram the metallic copy down our throats.
Why not tell that to Benfey?
In reaching out to him you tailored the truth.
Kind of like the BOT.
Must be contagious.
jd |
LibraryLady(ncjanow)
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3238
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 10:00 pm: |
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Joel, my old-time Queens friend...
I reached out to the author of the article you are using to paint Mr. Smith with an anti-semitic brush. I am not questioning, in this letter, anything to do with the BOT as Mr. Benfey is not an expert on them (or Tony Smith, according to his answer).
Where did I tailor the truth in my note? Should my use of the word "several" really have only been "one"?
I certainly am trying very hard not to make this personal, but you, it seems are not. |
Sitoyan
Citizen
Username: Sitoyan
Post Number: 162
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 10:04 pm: |
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Rastro,
Read the threads that refer to the sculpture; they are all full of insults, sarcasm, venom, and ignorance. The opponents have resorted to personal attacks toward the daughters and deceased widow of the artist. They have intentionally used statements made by others out of context so that they can support their own weak arguments against the sculpture and pursue their blind agenda of hate against the trustees, They consider the lies of Calabrese and the trustees as a good reason to abolish public art, instead of getting off their butts and vote them out on election day and leave public art alone. They attack the work of community workers while their greatest contribution to the community is to hide behind the anonymity of MOL and write insults and lies. They encourage acts of vandalism by prompting others to deface the sculpture with graffiti without thinking of the consequences that such acts would have on the reputation of our town. They ignore the truths that have been said on line by others and they keep creating their own by distorting these truths. They attempted to paint an artist as anti-semitic in order to support their cause, the same tactic of discrimination and persecution used by the nazis against the Jews. Shame.
Rastro, if you read these threads you will find all that I say and more. You will find them in posts of MHD, SOrising, Glock 17, Dan Shelfo, Joel Dranove, Jayjay, SOLady, Susan1014, and others not worth mentioning. These are the "some people" I am referring to.
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Stevef
Citizen
Username: Stevef
Post Number: 195
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 10:13 pm: |
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In the letter to the author you made it sound as if the main controversy was the alleged antisemitism rather than the BoT's manhandling of the truth about its financing. The lies from our Village President and a few "Trustees" are the main sticking point for the majority of citizens now opposing the misfeasence and malfeasence of our elected body, not the alleged anti-semitism. The schism is decidedly about the lies. |
LibraryLady(ncjanow)
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3239
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 10:19 pm: |
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SteveF,
They may be very true. But my question, and my concern at this time, and this thread, is about Tony Smith's alleged anti-semitism. That was information I was trying to ascertain from the author of the article posted that was used to "confirm" this accusation. I was just trying to get "first hand" information, directly from the source. I could no more ask the Art expert about our BOT "misfeasence and malfeasence" than I could about his opinion of the food at Bunnys. That is not his expertice or interest, nor the subject of THIS thread. |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 1474
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 10:40 pm: |
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Sitoyan,
I'm deeply offended. I cannot speak for others, but if you actually read my posts, you would see that I did not make personal attacks on Smith's family, quote others out of context, encourage vandalism, make accusations of antisemitism, etc.
I am not in favor of abolishing public art, but I also think that the good of public art does not justify the means that the BOT have used in bringing it to the town budget. If the supporters of this sculpture back away from the tainted deal with the town, I will write them a three-digit check to help pay for the piece, in spite of my disagreement with the site decision.
I do not claim that my participation in MOL is my greatest contribution to the community. My non-profit board involvement and youth group leadership are much better contributions. MOL is a hobby (albeit an informative one at times)
I also will be doing my best to vote Calabrese and certain other trustees out if they choose to run again. I'm a careful watcher of BOT meetings, and some trustees have lost my respect over many different issues, of which this is one of the less important, but more colorful.
I do continue to post behind my pseudonym, for reasons that have nothing to do with this debate.
You too are using a pseudonym as you claim "insults, sarcasm, venom and ignorance" while slandering me. Shame on you for stooping to this while claiming that I am not playing fair. |
Pdg
Citizen
Username: Pdg
Post Number: 784
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 11:01 pm: |
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Well said, Susan1014! 
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navin
Citizen
Username: Navin
Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 1:36 am: |
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Quote from Joel Dranove: "A little known artist with pronounced pro-Nazi architecture and anti-Semitic leanings is not what we should celebrate".
Sitoyan: It is important to pay close attention to what this quote actually says before labeling it defamatory. If you read this quote over again, you will find Joel is not saying Tony Smith has anti-Semitic leanings. He is saying that it would be wrong to celebrate an individual who has such leanings. I am in complete agreement with this sentiment, as I hope you are too. I applaud Joel for researching Tony Smith (some of us dumb (m)asses, John Galt, had never heard of him before) and bringing to our attention this article that mentions "Tony Smith" and "anti-Semitism" in the sentence. I also very much appreciate the efforts of everyone who took the time to research further, and it now seems fairly conclusive based on the information we have gathered that Tony Smith is not anti-Semitic. Good. I'm glad to hear it. It would have been particulary disgraceful for a village that prides itself on its diversity to memorialize a home-grown bigot.
As it stands, however, the Tau project remains disgraceful. But let's be clear about what makes it so:
Quote from Jonathan Glasser:
"Everyone is going to have to look at this sculpture so everyone is entitled to their opinion on it."
Jonathan, I disagree with you. It is not that everyone who will have to look at this sculpture is entitled to an opinion on it. It is that everyone WHO WILL HAVE TO PAY FOR IT is entitled to an opinion on it. This has never been about how Tau looks, or Tony Smith's feelings about Jews, really--these issues are, in hindsight, drifts. The debate about Tau is centered on, and has always been centered on, the BOT's disgraceful fiscal irresponsibility and the silencing of the voice of the taxpaying citizens.
(I am new to MOL, but I have been following this debate for quite some time.) |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 4603
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 1:49 am: |
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John-
You want the statue you and your group should pay for it and all the expenses that go with it. I have my doubts people are going to flock to town just to see this statue. BUT chances are within the first month it's there, it will be 'tagged.' |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 229
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 9:28 am: |
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Sitoyan, your reflexive invectives scarcely merit a response. But since you have so insistently made yourself an issue here, most people will not avoid noticing the hypocrisy of your remarks about others you don't know, "...while their greatest contribution to the community is to hide behind the anonymity of MOL and write insults and lies." In addition, how could you possibly assess the contributions of people when you don't know what they are? You have little credibility to accuse others of your own wretched behavior, much less with so specious an air of superiority.
How unfortunate that your personal dudgeon about art is not matched by any apparent concern about the deep-seated corruption under your nose. But you might need to pay attention to notice it instead of indulging your fatuous tirades in the public square.
As for ignorance and venom, your own words adjudge you. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3794
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 9:28 am: |
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Sitoyan/Eric,
Your post from Monday, April 3, 2006 at 10:04 pm is as far over the top as I have seen on MOL: I have not read any "personal attacks toward the daughters and deceased widow of the artist", there have been very few "weak arguments against the sculpture", I have not heard anyone call to "abolish public art" and I haven't seen anyody "encourage acts of vandalism ".
Are you SURE you are actually READING Maplewood Online, or merely listening to what others are telling you?  |
Pdg
Citizen
Username: Pdg
Post Number: 789
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 9:46 am: |
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SORising - I had to get out my dictionary for your last post! You, indeed, are a literary artist ("Ar-teest")!  |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 235
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 11:49 am: |
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Library Lady, swastikas are ancient symbols. And there are different kinds of them. Whether T. Smith's use of them was like the Nazi swastikas or whether they were not like them and more like other swastikas (such as Pueblos) is something that cannot be established by the information you provided.
Also, I still don't see that your message from the Slate author is terribly persuasive, one way or another. I am going to check the Slate article. The email the author sent to you seems to be affirming his previous remarks while declining any request to add to them. So it just doesn't add much to what we (or some of us) knew already. |
LibraryLady(ncjanow)
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3245
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 12:49 pm: |
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SORising, absolutely read the article. The author is a Professor of ENGLISH at Mt.Holyoke with a specialty in Emily Dickenson, among other 18th and 19th century authors. The remarks, which seem to be the only reference that Joel Dranove has to this situation, have been used to justify a position that is not supported any where else. That is my concern in this thread, not the financing, the BOT, placement or any other concern. Those can be addressed in the other threads. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 2761
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 12:57 pm: |
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Nancy, I haven't seen anyone other than Joel take up the anti-semitism angle. I found it interesting that original post said that the accusation appeared "relentlessly" here. I would guess it comprised much less than 0.5% of the posts about the statue prior to this thread being started.
I wonder, did the original authors read the threads, or were they told about the "accusation" second hand? |
LibraryLady(ncjanow)
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3248
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 12:58 pm: |
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I do not know the answer to that question Rastro, but I assume (probably a fatal mistake on my part) that they were reading MOL. |
Pdg
Citizen
Username: Pdg
Post Number: 791
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 1:03 pm: |
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LL - nothing that happens on MOL is fatal - at the end of the day, you are among friends and neighbors.  |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 238
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 1:23 pm: |
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Fair enough, LL. But even professors of English can have opinions about sculptors. Many of them see themselves as exhalted "culture critics" at the moment. It seems Joel may have been quoting this professor's opinion of Smith's work or his aesthetic tastes. I am very uncomfortable with aesthetic tastes being used to justify unethical behavior in the present controversy. It is a well-known lesson of Europe between the world wars that high culture in the arts did not yield high culture in ethics or moral conscience. And it seems to me that there are at least analogous tendencies afoot in our town and early recognition may be the best cure. I love Wright's architecture and detest his treatment of his wife and children. For this reason, I would have serious doubts about publicly funding a reproduction of his work, especially if there were plans to have young children worship at his shrine.
I will be back after I've read the article which hopefully won't be hard to find. |
LibraryLady(ncjanow)
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3250
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 2:24 pm: |
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http://www.slate.com/id/2928/ |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 9111
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 3:33 pm: |
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excerpt in question
Quote:Smith's political ideas are more elusive. He adopted an upbeat American organicism derived from Henry David Thoreau and Walt Whitman. There's nothing on record, as far as I know, to link him to his mentor Wright's notorious sympathy for Hitler and fascism. But some of Smith's doodles and offhand remarks give one pause. One of the drawings on view at MoMA is a diagram of the races, with the Jews identified as "circumscised [sic] cut off from Earth." In another drawing, from 1943, Smith develops his personal symbol, the "spiral cross," which is really nothing but a relaxed swastika. Traveling in Germany after the war he felt an uneasy admiration for Hitler's Haus der Kunst exhibition hall in Munich--"As you may have guessed," he wrote to the painter Barnett Newman, "the thing as a whole was very like the church [design] I sent you"--and for Albert Speer's gigantic stadium at Nuremberg. Such remarks inspire Storr's rather defensive observation that "unlike fascist art and architecture, Smith's sculptures and buildings were insistently built to human rather than superhuman scale."
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Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1054
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 3:55 pm: |
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My 2 cents on this -
The artist and the art are two different things. You dont have to like the artists personal politics nor do you have to agree with the artists point of view on anything. The artists art is what matters.
If Da Vinci was an anti-semite would we not appreciate the Mona Lisa?
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SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 239
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 4:00 pm: |
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Here are Mr. Dranove’s remarks about T. Smith on the petition Dranove signed:
“A little known artist with pronounced pro-Nazi architecture and anti-Semitic leanings is not what we should celebrate.”
The basis for Mr. Dranove’s view is a Slate article written by an English professor that Mr. Dranove had previously pasted, at least in part, onto MOL for all to see. The relevant excerpt from it follows my remarks in this post.
Could Mr. Dranove reasonably think Smith’s architecture was either “pro-Nazi” or had “pro-Nazi leanings” and that Smith himself had “anti-Semitic leanings...” ? Is it reasonable to think that a protégé of F. L. Wright, a well-known Nazi and fascist sympathizer, might also sympathize with the Nazis? Is it reasonable to think that that same protégé who confesses to admire Hitler’s art exhibition hall (Haus der Kunst) and Albert Speer’s Nuremberg stadium might fashion his architecture after the “pro-Nazi leanings” of his mentor and Albert Speer?
It may be that while pondering these questions, Mr. Dranove came across the reference to Smith’s diagram of the races and his swastika doodles. And, whether or not one would reach the same conclusion, I do not find Mr. Dranove’s suspicions unwarranted, nor his conclusions unfounded. It is reasonable to hold his views, regardless of whether they mirror those of any other. But Mr. Dranove, of course, was expressing his own view, no one else’s, as he is entitled to do as a SO resident being asked to pay and publicly condone the sculpture.
LL, since you are a library lady, could you find out very easily which swastikas T. Smith used and which ones Nazis used? Knowing this might be helpful. (It has to do with the direction of the arms, up or down, I think.)
It does seem clear that the “repulsive tactic” on this thread comes from Sitoyan, not from Mr. Dranove, as several have noted. Because Sitoyan is a follower of people wanting the sculpture, should we think that they condone and practice Sitoyan’s tactics? It gives one pause, at least.
While thinking about these issues, it seems much clearer to me that Ms. Arnedt lied about an “overwhelming majority” of SO residents agreeing with her, than Mr. Dranove engaged in a “repulsive tactic” for expressing his own reasonable views as a free citizen of South Orange Village.
**********************************************
Excerpted from SLATE magazine:
“There's nothing on record, as far as I know, to link him to his mentor Wright's notorious sympathy for Hitler and fascism. But some of Smith's doodles and offhand remarks give one pause. One of the drawings on view at MoMA is a diagram of the races, with the Jews identified as "circumscised [sic] cut off from Earth." In another drawing, from 1943, Smith develops his personal symbol, the "spiral cross," which is really nothing but a relaxed swastika. Traveling in Germany after the war he felt an uneasy admiration for Hitler's Haus der Kunst exhibition hall in Munich--"As you may have guessed," he wrote to the painter Barnett Newman, "the thing as a whole was very like the church [design] I sent you"--and for Albert Speer's gigantic stadium at Nuremberg. Such remarks inspire Storr's rather defensive observation that "unlike fascist art and architecture, Smith's sculptures and buildings were insistently built to human rather than superhuman scale."
It may be that grandiose schemes for redesigning society inevitably flirt with repressive politics. Or perhaps the New York art world, in which Kusama ran aground, required such a tough-guy mentality to survive. Either way, Smith's work, unlike Kusama's, seems locked into its time. The inflexible architect leaves behind a whiff of Ayn Rand; his twisted metal hulks suggest the ruins of uninhabitable places. Walking through Smith's fantasy world of black steel, I found myself drawn to some of his softer, more tentative objects, like the handmade plaster web called Wingbone (from his daughter Kiki's collection) or a pencil sketch of confused sperm, tangled up (in a traffic jam?) with the caption: "Will Jackson Pollock affect our cars?" These, it occurred to me, had the Kusama touch--anarchic, whimsical, looking for a perch to call home.
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Spanish Inquisitor
Citizen
Username: Sinq
Post Number: 51
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 4:03 pm: |
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so they only sort of resembled swastikas
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LibraryLady(ncjanow)
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3252
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 4:17 pm: |
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Actually I cannot easily found out what type of swastika or anything else about Mr. Smith's Nzai leanings as the only reference to this I have been able to find is the article in Slate. That's it, nothing else. I tried to find a copy of Smith's "Personal Symbol" but the only reference to it is in the Slate article. |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 240
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 4:23 pm: |
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It may be in the catalogue from the MOMA exhibit of his work that the article was about. |
Sitoyan
Citizen
Username: Sitoyan
Post Number: 163
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 7:34 pm: |
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Susan1014, Sorising,
I don’t hide behind a pseudonym as you do. My name is Zarah Sitoyan. What is your name? I’ve lived in South Orange for two years and I am already volunteering in two local non-profits and school organizations.
Navin,
Are you saying that Joel Dranove’s statement "A little known artist with pronounced pro-Nazi architecture and anti-Semitic leanings is not what we should celebrate" in the thread “Response To Accusations of Anti-Semitism by Tony Smith” we shouldn’t interpret it as saying that Tony Smith had anti-semitic leanings? Give me a break.
MHD,
I am reading and have participated in MOL before I even moved here. I’ve learned a lot about the community we live in from MOL, both good and bad. The sculpture issue is an eye-opener to the bad sides of both my government and my neighbors. So you see my statements are my own observations on what I have read here so far.
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SO1969
Citizen
Username: Bklyn1969
Post Number: 259
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 7:45 pm: |
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Sitoyan
I must say I agree with you when you say "The sculpture issue is an eye-opener to the bad sides of both my government and my neighbors."
Much has been said about how the BOT bungled this up.
But I can't believe how selfish some of my neighbors are.
Apparently they think that which is normally paid for by private contributions should instead come out of our collective pockets - without any regard for whether it is legal or whether it is desired by most residents or whether we have a hundred more pressing, essential goverment function items the money could be better spent on.
It has been disturbing to learn this about my neighbors. |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 243
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 8:03 pm: |
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Funny Zarah Sitoyan, directory assistance has no listing for you, at least under this name, anyway. Do you have any other aliases? |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 1480
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 9:45 pm: |
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Sitoyan,
My apologies for assuming that you were using a pseudonym (I assumed you were using a creative spelling of the French word for citizen). Although you are not in the book, I will take you at your word, and assume that you were choosing to slander me while using your real name.
I choose to use a not-terribly private pseudonym here for a variety of reasons. Primarily, I want to be able to honestly answer informational questions or debate on sensitive personal issues (such as fertility treatments, school issues and child rearing issues) while maintaining at least a veneer of privacy for myself and my family, and not leaving a permanent internet trail under my full name. There are people on the board who know my identity, and I try to conduct myself fairly and respectfully, as I would if I were posting under my full name. All I hope is that others on MOL do the same. |
navin
Citizen
Username: Navin
Post Number: 2
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 10:41 pm: |
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Sitoyan,
There can be a difference between what a line implies and what a line actually says, and you don't acknowledge the possibility of such difference. We are accustomed to overlooking these nuances of language in our everyday speech but when we start throwing around accustations of libel it's important to make sure that we're paying precise attention to exactly what's being said.
-Navin Johnson
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joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 300
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 7:51 am: |
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Now let me see, what could he have been thinking of in 1943?
Probably the Pueblo Indians.
You're correct.
I have come to realize that my thoughts are, to quote the metal bender's description of the Jews, as "circumcsised [sic] cut off from Earth."
jd |
Sitoyan
Citizen
Username: Sitoyan
Post Number: 165
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 11:20 am: |
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Quote:Funny Zarah Sitoyan, directory assistance has no listing for you, at least under this name, anyway. Do you have any other aliases?
SOrising and Susan1014,
directory assistance has no listing for more than half of the names listed as signatories in the petition against the Tau sculpture. Do they all have other aliases? Does this make their signatures invalid?
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Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 2778
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 11:26 am: |
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Did you really check directory assistance for the names on the petition? Or are you making an assumption, as Ms Arnedt did? |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 1481
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 11:40 am: |
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Sitoyan, as I already said, I am happy to take you at your word that you are posting under your own name. My arguments with you lie in what you said, not in what name you said it under. |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 248
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 12:48 pm: |
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Sitoyan seems to have Ms. Arnedt's propensity for lying, Rastro. If she has a list of over 200 who've signed the petition who are not listed in directory assistance, she should produce it. Of course, people living at Seton Hall would be located through the university switchboard. But this is a mere triffle, like so many others, Sitoyan can't be bothered with before making outrageous and untrue claims not only about people who post here, but literally about hundreds of people in South Orange.
With her kind of track record, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that claims about her (or his) real identity are misleading as well.
Sitoyan and Ms. Arnedt certainly are fine examples of integrity, great advocates for their cause. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 2787
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 12:51 pm: |
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I don't see Ms Arnedt as lying. Embellishing, perhaps. Overstating? definitely.
I see her motive as good, even if her statements are less than pure. |
Pdg
Citizen
Username: Pdg
Post Number: 816
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 12:53 pm: |
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Rastro - With all due respect, why publically qualify yourself as a "professional pollster" and then toss around words like majority and minority without any supporting documentation unless the intention is to mislead? A true professional wouldn't embellish their statistics. |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 249
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 12:58 pm: |
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You seem to suffer the same equivocation Pdg did, Rastro. See two other threads: one on why we should bring the sculpture to SO; the other on why the Pierro Foundation is lying to get its way.
Nice people can lie, especially if others enable them and make excuses for them. Regrettable, but true. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 2789
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 1:00 pm: |
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Many true professionals seem to embellish their statistics all the time, unfortunately. I guess I see her as someone who is trying to do something good, and gets caught up in it, doing or saying what she thinks she has to to get it done. I am no condoning what she is doing, but I don't put her in the same league as, say, Calabrese.
I just find the word liar to be a very strong word. But I guess you are right. She should know better than to make statements like that without anything impartial to back it up. |
Rob E. Bank
Citizen
Username: Parkingsux
Post Number: 377
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 1:02 pm: |
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To offer her professional credentials to be recognized with respect to the community wide support she professes is deceiving, and in other words lying. This fabrication and justification of the assumed truth is as pernicious as the vote by the BoT |
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