| Author | Message | ||
     Jonathan Glasser Citizen Username: Zoro Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2005 |
First, I'd like to say I've been reading the threads on this topic and I am really happy to see so much opinion! This is just the sort of thing towns should debate, i.e, how they to spend budget $$. I just want to weigh in on the pro side of things, since it seems the only folks starting threads are the ones who are con the project. Unfortunately, that gives the impression that the project's supporters are few. I am really excited that we are considering bringing in a sculpture by a significant artist to this town, it will be something our town can be proud of, hopefully, for generations. One of the things that brought me to South Orange was that it was not a typical suburban town lacking culture. There are sidewalks that people walk, there are cafes other than Starbucks, there is a large community of artists, musicians and writers here, there will be a new SOPAC and the Baird Center is a gem. I believe, to do great things you have to spend some $$ -- $250,000 in this instance. Let's do it! There will always be other ways to spend budget dollars, you can always have a grey society with everything perfectly maintained, but nothing worth remembering! This could be something special. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 452 Registered: 7-2005  |
It could be...if it wasn't so darn ugly. | ||
| Jonathan Glasser Citizen Username: Zoro Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2005 |
OK, Glock 17, you're saying you don't like it. Fair enough. It's art, not everyone will. I really do. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9087 Registered: 4-1997  |
It's $440,000, not $250,000. Plus debt service. | ||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 1140 Registered: 5-2003 |
We should have had this debate before our BOT committed our tax dollars to this project. It should have been aired publicly and honestly, not surrounded by lies and deceit. | ||
| Jonathan Glasser Citizen Username: Zoro Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2005 |
Dave, I read it as $250,000. But even assuming your number, I am strongly pro. The end result will be glorious! Lizzie, you are raising an extremely important point. I think it is not relevant to my point. That is, we have an opportunity to do a great thing . . . . let's do it! | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9088 Registered: 4-1997 |
profligate spending based on fake public input is wrong | ||
| Jonathan Glasser Citizen Username: Zoro Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2005 |
Dave, are you saying the Tony Smith is not worth what you say the town will be spending? Just curious what you base that on. On the other hand, if you mean we have more important things to spend on, that is possibly true. But I think we can afford this and it will add so much to our community. It all comes down to how important is art in our lives? And how important is it to you to spend this money fixing Town Hall instead? Fake public input is always wrong. Why is that relevant to whether we want the artwork? My point is, if it is right to do this, let's do it! | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9089 Registered: 4-1997 |
We have a budget shortfall. Using debt is bad. It's bad for the nation and it's bad for a town. It decreases property values as sure as Bush's debt decreases the dollar's value. We all want nice things. But they should come when we can afford them. Right now, we can't afford the war we're in and we can't afford to bond for a copy of a sculpture while our firefighters live in trailers. | ||
| Jonathan Glasser Citizen Username: Zoro Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2005 |
Dave, you are raising many interesting points. Just a few questions -- What are the costs of putting our firefighters back in their station? And are you saying that the Town's use of debt in the relatively small amount we're discussing would have an observable negative impact on our property values? | ||
| Monster© Supporter Username: Monster Post Number: 2711 Registered: 7-2002  |
Have you taken the time to really read the other threads on this subject.... | ||
| Jonathan Glasser Citizen Username: Zoro Post Number: 13 Registered: 12-2005 |
Monster, I thought I had, certainly most of them. Interested people come on these boards to exchange views. I feel educated enough to do that. What is it you think I missed, if you don't mind? | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 278 Registered: 1-2006 |
Well, apparently you missed everything. Start downtown, or on Vose Avenue. Try the Shop Rite eyesore. Learn about how Calabrese and his board cronies and lawyer let us down, and have given us a permanent, house value depressing, gutted building. Or the Beifus wasteland, another value depressor, (while owned by Beifus taken off tax roles by a vote of the BOT, by agreement approved by our village attorney, because it was not developed - I kid you not), or the former rug store that is a white fence and contaminated fill from the SOPAC site, and another tax hit. Or the looming parking crisis when the movie theatres open. Or the inside deals for Vose or Valley development. Or the decrepit condition of town hall. The thought of locating a large, eyesore copy of a middling welder-artist work, artist unknown to 99 plus percent of the public, in the prime spot downtown, by razing a beautiful gazebo, is anathema to many. The tau certainly isn't bringing the town together. It tears us apart. The fact that so many voters are aghast at the idea of this thing being dropped into our tiny downtown has led to much public remonstrance, literally with the potential for arrest if Calabrese has his way, which has exposed the government's cavalier disregard for the truth. Why don't you talk about the Beifus site, or the ShopRite site, or government private deals with tax delinquent real estate owners who blight our downtown, and how our downtown is a bleeding wound. The tau won't attract anyone here. They can go see an earlier copy at Hunter College. Have a nice day. jd | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 279 Registered: 1-2006 |
If you want a tau, buy one. Don't foist it on me. jd | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9090 Registered: 4-1997 |
I agree with Monster. You need to take time and do some leg work on this. Our BoT lied to the public and was about to defraud a federal agency. It's in the recent Star-Ledger article. I, too, was for the sculpture until I learned that they were playing fast and loose with the truth. None of the public debate until a week ago was really valid because the funding number was based on lies. If you're comfortable with that type of government, just say so, so we can agree to disagree and we won't need to debate further. | ||
| Soparents Citizen Username: Soparents Post Number: 99 Registered: 5-2005 |
Hello Jonathan, I only came to the MOL forum about 8 days ago, at which time I read for the first time about the sculpture. I will state here, as I have done at various times in the last 8 days, that this world would be a very dull place without art, but in OUR particular case, and at THIS particular time, our town cannot responsibly put its elected hand in the pocket and in clear conscience pay out the money. You seem to be a man who appreciates art, and so I will ask this: If you were to walk into an art gallery housing beautiful/expensive/thought provoking etc works of art, and the paint was peeling off the walls, there were buckets on the floor catching the rain coming through the ceiling, the plaster was falling off the walls that the art was hanging on etc etc, would you see beyond all that? Would you care? Would you not think that maybe they should spend some money on the structure of the establishment housing the fantastic art, after all, it's not really showing it all off to its full potential, and is certainly dangerous to the "public" inside.... I know standing in front of a work of art can be so fulfilling that all other thoughts in your mind are pushed aside, but at some stage you would see the walls, or feel the rain splash on you, or notice the gaping holes on the walls... The "Gallery" is our town. I WANT this town to be filled with beautiful things, I want to live somewhere where my children are able to appreciate history and art, where they can see first hand the glory of imagination and a God given gift, but I do not want them to experience all this at the cost of good roads, safe sidewalks, having to actually walk on Vose Avenue with me blocking them from cars, as a fence is blocking the sidewalk. I don't want to be in the position myself of facing rotator cuff surgery due to carrying one of my children and my foot going into a cracked sidewalk.... I want our schools to be well maintained, I don't want dangerous trash cans in my 5 year olds restroom just waiting to injure a child. I don't want our brave firefighters to be in temporary acommodation a minute longer, it has been too long already, I don't want the village hall to continue looking so derelict a second longer....... I too have a dream for this town, I too have a wish for the best for South Orange, and I believe you do too. If we are asked to put our hands in our pockets to improve this town, then it's one thing, but to spend this money whether it ultimately be $250,000 or $500,000 or more, when our town needs help, is something I cannot be at ease with, particulary since there has been no real public input. If this subject had really involved the public with fund drives etc, when it was explained to the life and soul of this town, and by this I mean the people, do you not think they would have done the town proud? Do you not think they would have stepped up to the plate and voluntarily donated? This doesn't equal someone agreeing with their tax dollars being used. Tax dollars should be used for the structural good of the town, and the responsible running of the town, and our elected leaders have let us ALL down. I am glad to see your comments, I am glad to see someone else with a point of view taking the time to post. | ||
| Lucy Supporter Username: Lucy Post Number: 3328 Registered: 5-2005  |
Soparents common sense heartfelt comments it is wonderful to hear from you thanks. | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 1460 Registered: 3-2002 |
Jonathan, I would support this sculpture if it had been handled differently (even though I'm not a huge fan of this particular piece). But right now, many of us are unable and unwilling to look at this project outside of the broader context in which it is occuring. I feel bad for the sincere and well-intentioned arts lovers whose project has gotten snared in this mess, but that doesn't change my concerns. We are currently in a financial hole due to the number of stalled projects in town, and the loss of associated taxes (as well as spiraling energy costs, etc.). We are giving away PILOTs on residential housing which probably could be done without tax breaks. We are building a performing arts center which seems to be incapable of either active fundraising or making a business plan public (and note that I'm actually a supporter of SOPAC!). The BOT seems to be dabbling in real estate speculation without having any experts on payroll to get us a good deal. Some on the BOT are good people, but they seem to be participating in a deeply flawed process. In addition, we have leaders who can say with a straight face that this peice of sculpture is going to be central to pulling thousands of visitors into our downtown. They told us that this sculpture came at no cost to the town until forced to acknowledge that this wasn't true. (Do you watch the BOT meetings? I do, and they are amazing). They allowed the Tony Smith estate to tie them to a timeline that may well put the town in the position of paying some of the "private" portion of the cost, and then hoping that the fund-raising actually occurs. I'm a major booster of South Orange, and an optimist. I think that we will get much of this development right enough to be an asset to the town, albeit a few years behind schedule. I also fear that we are making bad deals, and will put more of the cost on the taxpayer than should be necessary for deals such as the grocery store, the Beifus project, SOPAC, potentially the huge and high-density Millennium project, and yes, this small sculpture project. Until we have some comfort that the bigger problems are being solved, I feel a need to be very cautious about the "nice to have" elements, such as this sculpture. | ||
| Jonathan Glasser Citizen Username: Zoro Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2005 |
Well, thanks to all for the comments this morning. Joel, I get you don't like the sculpture. I do. Everything else you said in your first post is about something else. By the way, the gazebo is not necessarily the most attractive item either -- I bet 200 people in this town absolutely hate it (and you could probably say the same for most things). Taste is personal. Re: your second post, I am curious -- everytime government makes a decision you don't personally agree with, do you say it is foisted on you? I bet there are people in NYC who opposed every public piece of art there is. Do you believe any dissent at all is sufficient to kill a project? Finally, I would indeed be paying for this sculpture, as will you if it is erected. I know you would not be happy about that. If the project is killed, I would not be happy. I guess we'll see what happens. Dave, you are the one making comments about the economic impact on the town of paying $250,000 or whatever you say the number is, and when I ask for specifics you tell me to do the legwork. Where are your specifics? (Are you even sure there isn't money already in the budget to pay for the firehouse?) Of course, you are right, no one wants to be lied to. If that is what happened, there should be ramifications for our government. Now let's talk about having a beautiful modern sculpture in our downtown. Let's not punish the town for the alleged misconduct of its BOT. Finally, Soparents, you express many of my own hopes for this Town. Sometimes you have to put aside your anger with someone to get something wonderful done. South Orange could use improvements, you are right. I view the Tony Smith as an improvement. Your analogy to a broken down gallery -- I would rather go to a broken down gallery to see a great art work than go to a beautiful museum just to see the walls. (I am sorry to hear about your rotator cuff, that is painful) I think we all wish the construction in town was further along -- it seems to be dragging on forever. What makes you think, however, that killing the sculpture project will change any of that? (PS aren't the town and school budgets totally separate?) | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9092 Registered: 4-1997 |
$440,000 Perhaps you should run for office with Calabrese. Neither of you seem to mind messing around with facts. | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 756 Registered: 5-2004  |
I'd like to add a small, but significant point to the others. That area of Sloan Street was already improved since I moved here 9 years ago, with what Calabrese told me was a $3 million improvement project. It was bonded, of course, so it's $3 million plus interest. Included within that $3 million of tax-payer spending was the current gazebo and fountain. To use a Calabrese-ism, there was a "vision" regarding the installation since the gazebo has an expensive slate roof and intricate metal work (also quite expensive) along the roof-line. It was obviously intended that the gazebo blend well within the architecture of the historic firehouse and the train station. It needs pigeon-proofing, but it is at least as pleasant to look at as the proposed sculpture and one might call it a work of art (I've seen worse things called art!) The fountain was a fiasco of poor engineering and design, but again tax dollars were used for it. I certainly hope that the town kept whoever designed it on the hook and that we were reimbursed something. And, if it can't be fixed or made safe since the Tony Smith Sculpture Project claims that it is dangerous, then it should be filled in. The point is, the area was already improved with tax dollars once. Of course the TS Estate wanted their "gift" to be installed in the only decent looking place in town where the most people would see it. However, that site should have been off-limits simply due to the fact that it was already improved and many, many other areas of S. Orange are desperate for an initial improvement! Kill two birds with one stone. I'm quite appalled at the lying the BOT has done regarding the funding of this project. However, I was against this project when I learned about it in the Fall and the lying was still unexposed. I was against it because the town had not been notified and because my tax dollars had already been used to improve that site. The placement is just plain wrong, and I think it just stinks that it supposedly can't be moved because then the TS Estate will "take back their gift" according to Cheryl Arnedt! | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 757 Registered: 5-2004 |
And, btw, Zorro is spelled with two z's.  | ||
| Jonathan Glasser Citizen Username: Zoro Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2005 |
Dave, you were the one giving facts then you stopped. I am willing to assume your $440,000 figure and still am pro the project. Do you reallly think I should run? :-) | ||
| Jonathan Glasser Citizen Username: Zoro Post Number: 16 Registered: 12-2005 |
Pdg, I apologize if you are bored. And I want to personally thank you for engaging in a constructive dialogue. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9093 Registered: 4-1997 |
Now add debt service to your assumption and the assumed continued debt for the gazebo. | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 758 Registered: 5-2004 |
I'm bored?  And you inferred that how? And, you are apologizing for it? I assure you, I did not mean to imply that you were boring! | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9095 Registered: 4-1997 |
You meant two Rs I think. Two Zs would be Zozro. Or Zorzo. Or Zoorz. Unless Zoro is a penguin? http://www.southorangevillage.com/cgi-bin/show.cgi?tpc=3365&post=414232#POST4142 32 | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 760 Registered: 5-2004 |
 Of course, you're right Dave - oh, my, gosh! (very embarassed) | ||
| Soparents Citizen Username: Soparents Post Number: 100 Registered: 5-2005 |
When is the next BOT meeting that the public can attend? | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9096 Registered: 4-1997 |
Bring your lawyer and bail. | ||
| Jonathan Glasser Citizen Username: Zoro Post Number: 17 Registered: 12-2005 |
Pdg, I think the gazebo would look great near the pool or by the duck pond -- let's not waste it, but move it where we can be seen enjoying it with our parasols in full animated color! :-) There will be another installation cost, of course. Good art is often polarizing because it is strong. Some people hate it, others love it. This kind of sculpture probably will leave no one ambivalent. I think this is an exciting time for South Orange and we can all make a difference. | ||
| Raise The Money, $$$ Citizen Username: Parkingsux Post Number: 370 Registered: 6-2005  |
The only difference to be made is filing a court injunction to have it stopped. In one of these links you mentioned the public is not able to make a decision like this one, but then you profess the resident taxpayer can pay for it. I would say that sentiment is as egotistical, self centered and a mix of slobbering propaganda not worthy of any further discussion with you. To allow art appreciation, good or bad, to trump other high priority items in town is disrespectful of the petitioners who have signed on as opposed. Let's bring it to the ballot box. If you think we have any trust in our leadership you are sadly mistaken. BTW: As an aside, the word on the street is that BC and Sayid purchased the Ridge Tire Building. I wonder what development plans the planning board will review next? Conflicts of interest abound greater than the Tau.  | ||
| Jonathan Glasser Citizen Username: Zoro Post Number: 18 Registered: 12-2005 |
RTM, don't know who you are referring to, I never said the public is not able to make a decision like this. On the contrary, I believe these sorts of debates are vital to local government. Let's talk about whether we want to pay for this, whether we like it, whether it suits our civic style, etc. And let's bring our feelings about the BOT to the ballot box, I agree. But if the main reason people have for opposing is that the BOT lied about it, I don't think our anger should get in the way of doing something wonderful for the town. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3778 Registered: 5-2001  |
Jonathan - Precisely! The problem is the BOT made a decision to spend up to half a million dollars by request of a few vocal supporters of this project WITHOUT ANY PUBLIC DISCUSSION OF WHETHER WE WANT TO PAY FOR THIS. It's so simple. If the few vocal supporters want this project so desperately, THEY should pay for it on their own or through fundraising. Why do "they" INSIST on forcing this upon US - a MAJORITY of people who do NOT feel it is an appropriate use of our tax dollars at this time? | ||
| Jonathan Glasser Citizen Username: Zoro Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2005 |
MHD, let's be clear. You are in favor of the project as long as we (the taxpayers) don't have to pay for it? Right there on Sloan St.? Suppose someone picks up your percentage of the tab? :-) Majority vs. few vocal supporters talk seems baseless at this point. 200 signatures is not a majority and us chickens on MOL are but a handful. I'm off to see the play at the S.O. Middle School ! Catch you later. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9097 Registered: 4-1997 |
Yes, send a letter to each resident asking them if they'd like you to "pick up their tab". Are 200 people on the Tony Smith committee to defraud taxpayers? Why won't the TS committee stand up with fellow citizens and request accountability from those who lied to us? Just curious. | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 543 Registered: 6-2005 |
Jonathan- You must realize that this is as much about the process (or lack thereof) the BOT's utilize to spend taxpayers money. Do you think 1% of the municipal budget should go for public art? How many municipalities do that that you know of? And what about how they chose to fund it? By a series of untruths, and suspect accounting. Do you endorse that? And what about the decision to place this thing in a location recently renovated and still being paid for with bonds? How about the old fire engine the town owns. Should they spend thousands of dollars to restore that thing? Are you in favor of $10,000,000 for the river project? What about the $500,000 for stabilizing the old stone house? What about an indoor recreation facility or a tennis bubble? How about a bike path? Or a mall under the train trestle? Get the point? If you don't have a legitmate process for decision making and prioritizing and funding, you have a government run amuck. All these things I've listed have been mentioneded by the BOT's. Do they have a priority list? No. Do citiziens want them and are they willing to pay for them? Who knows? I'm not. Tony Smith is just the beginning. | ||
| Soparents Citizen Username: Soparents Post Number: 101 Registered: 5-2005 |
If this was the ONLY thing that appeared to have been "done the wrong way" then I imagine that the residents of this town would to a man, say that we should forgive. They would say that since until now, our structure was solid and cared for, our retailers were frequented by the residents of this town, as after all, the downtown area was a warm and welcoming place, and we knew that we lived in the best town around, approving of this project "quietly" should be forgiven. Unfortunately, through what I am being told, and have been told for the last 3 years that we have lived here, this is not the case. Bottom line, if all was as it should be, then there would not be this uprising, but it seems as I have said before, this sculpture is the catalysyt, the final straw, THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE SCULPTURE!!! Some people are voicing concern on MOL, others are voicing concern outside schools when they wait for their children, others still as they walk to a train in the morning. It's so sad that something that it meant to bring joy to thousands, bring animated conversation to the masses, and something which so many people feel passionately about, should become nothing more than the final straw... | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 1462 Registered: 3-2002 |
Jonathan, You say "Majority vs. few vocal supporters talk seems baseless at this point. 200 signatures is not a majority and us chickens on MOL are but a handful." Maybe so, but why do you think that those of us who post are so unrepresentative of the town as a whole? | ||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 521 Registered: 1-2004  |
Johathan, can you provide the list of supporters? |
