| Author | Message | ||
     SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 221 Registered: 2-2006 |
Okay, Pdg. But let's be clear. Do you or do you not think Ms. Arnedt lied in the quotations you just cited when she claimed that an "overwhelming majority" of SO residents support her work of bringing the sculpture to town in the manner in which she has? Is this statement true or false? It doesn't matter what else she said. If you equivocate in the face of clear falsehoods, how could you stand up for the truth when falsehood is far more subtle? Do you think only men lie? Do you think women who lie somehow need to be protected from being recognized to have lied? I'm truly curious and perplexed by your apparent unwillingness to admit what you already recognize....? | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3791 Registered: 5-2001  |
Rastro, Your post above (Monday, April 3, 2006 - 5:36 pm) is an absolutely perfect description of the situation! | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3792 Registered: 5-2001 |
PDG - since you have the materials, could you post the names of the other 30 "Advisory Committee" members? | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 775 Registered: 5-2004  |
Do I think only men lie?  What a complete non-sequitur! To answer what I think you are actually asking, which is "do I think she lied in her letter to the editor?" Yes, it seems she did. However, I do not have her printed statement that there absolutely was not a survey done. I DO have her published letter to the editor. Therefore, I hesitate to publicly declare that she lied and would rather leave open the remote possibility that she didn't willfully publish a lie. Hopefully, she herself, or one of her agents who writes on MOL on her behalf, will have the decency to clarify this for us. (I also find it much more subtly effective to highlight someone's apparent contradiction using their own words and actions, rather than simply and coarsely say "LIAR!") | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 776 Registered: 5-2004 |
OK, but only because I'm a fast typist, and then I really must stop for a while: Tyson Arnedt Patricia Bell Jim Buchanan Amy Dahn Katherine DeFoyd Roberta Elliott Saule Fischer Carol Gordon Jim Gordon Ellen Greenfield Marilyn Hayden Nancy Heins-Glaser Emily Hubley Carol Jochnowitz Joe Landi John Lee Laura Lou Levy Carol Mann Karen McDermott Bernice Napach David Niggli John Nye Charles Paikert Margie Pye David Rifkin Roy Scott Laura Spain-Farrow Judy Targan Charles Wantman Holly Zickler (phew) | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 222 Registered: 2-2006 |
Thanks, Pdg. Very interesting. It looks like neither Calabrese nor DeVaris should have voted on whether to fund the sculpture with public monies. Of five trustees of the Foundation, one is Ms. Arnedt herself. Another trustee has signed the letter presented in another thread about whether Smith was anti-semitic. Is it possible that the other four members of the Foundation's board of directors approve of Ms. Arnedt's lying in order to drum up more support for what she is trying to do? I hope not but find her actions pretty astounding. Do they really approve of her active public deceit? What a sad day for art in South Orange. It deserves better than this. | ||
| composerjohn Citizen Username: Composerjohn Post Number: 814 Registered: 8-2004  |
I know one of the people on the list above, and he's a MAPLEWOOD resident. | ||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 4628 Registered: 5-2001  |
I know another, and SHE's a MAPLEWOOD resident! | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 551 Registered: 6-2005 |
I know 2 and they live in Summit! | ||
| Jonathan Glasser Citizen Username: Zoro Post Number: 23 Registered: 12-2005 |
And vermontgolfer is from vermont! | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 223 Registered: 2-2006 |
Well, Pdg, let's clarify some of these things. Aside from anything else Ms. Arnedt did or did not do, one can assess whether her newspaper statement about an "overwhelming majority" is true or false. Since Ms. Arnedt is a professional pollster, she would need to have reliable statistical evidence to make such a strong statement about the majority of South Orange's population. Since she did not conduct a poll, it is impossible to conclude that she made a false statement while believing it to be true. Therefore, her false intention in addition to her false action (statement) is probable if not clear. And together, they mean that she (almost certainly) lied. (The non-sequitur you mentioned is an admittedly absurd example to try to understand why you felt so committed to protecting someone who, by her intentions and actions, doesn't seem to warrant your protection.) Lying is coarse. Recognizing or admitting it is not. They are a prophylactic against its harm. Thank you for posting the long list of other advisory committee members to the Foundation, Pdg. Do they also approve of Ms. Arnedt's deceitful tactics to further her goal? Do any of them care if the public money used to bring the sculpture to town has been acquired inadvisedly, illicitly or even illegally? Do they care if the sculpture project was initially an inadvertent, but more and more, explicit tool of corruption in South Orange? Is art used to foster corruption still okay with them because several things of value may be subverted to one thing of value? I really wonder. What kind of town is South Orange, really, when push comes to shove? | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 224 Registered: 2-2006 |
So, composerjohn, ffof and jayjay, among you, you recognize four people on Pdg's advisory committee list to the Pierro Foundation who don't live in SO. Of the remainder committee members on the list, does anyone know with certainty how many of them are SO residents? One would hope that Maplewood and Summit residents would care enough about art, here or elsewhere, to demand a halt to the Faustian bargain Ms. Arnedt has struck with the truth and SO officials to promote her myopic goal. But if SO residents don't care enough about corruption in their town, Maplewood and Summit residents might more easily deceive themselves into thinking they shouldn't either and into believing it won't hurt them anyway. | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 777 Registered: 5-2004 |
SOrising, you seem to be certain that a poll was not conducted. I think it is highly unlikely that a poll was conducted. However, I am not in possession of any proof that a poll was NOT conducted. Rather, I am in possession of a written, published statement that seems to suggest that a poll WAS taken. I am not confident enough that there ISN'T a poll to publicly slander someone. So, I choose not to. Even you are careful enough to say "that she (almost certainly) lied." I agree with you - it seems ALMOST conclusive that she lied. Obviously, this was the point of my quoting from her letter to the editor. My hope is that it will elicit a response from one of her supporters, if not Ms. Arnedt herself. If it were being publicly suggested that I had lied, I most certainly would be posting an explanation. I know nothing about the Advisory Committee to the Lennie Pierro Memorial Arts Foundation and I can't begin to imagine what it is they actually do. I don't presume to know what they "care about" or what is "okay with them", and I don't know why you would ask me! My reason for posting the two names I did was because they are members of our local government and I think it is more than interesting that they are officially affiliated with the LPMAF, if not specifically its sub-charity, The Tony Smith Sculpture Project. Someone else requested that I post the 30 other members and so I did, although I don't really see the relevance. The "Advisory Committee" may just be a fancy way of publicly recognizing financial supporters of the LPMAF and may not necessarily have anything to do with the TSSP. (For instance, I support many charities located in other NJ towns (NJPAC, The Seeing Eye, The Smile Train, etc.) and that doesn't mean I presume to manage the details of their local agendas.) I truly hope no one bothers the people listed on the LPMAF Advisory Committee simply for being listed, unless they actually voted as members of the BOT, in which case it is clear that they influenced S.Orange's local agenda! I don't want my tax dollars being directed for someone else's charitable cause without my permission, i.e., my opportunity to VOTE on it! | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 225 Registered: 2-2006 |
Did you not just remark, Pdg, that the basis for you defending Ms. Arnedt previously was that she clarified, on videotape, that she did not take a poll of public opinion? Her objection on videotape before the BOT that she did not conduct a poll is positive evidence there is no poll. Negative evidence of her not conducting a poll exists in the fact that none was referenced or provided in the packet of material she gave to you or to others who have mentioned it on this board. So, on the basis of Ms. Arnedt's own evidence, both positive and negative, we can safely conclude she did not conduct a poll. Again, you are gracious to the point of skewing the reality of the case in concluding only that a poll ďs "highly unlikely." It is a virtual certainty that Ms. ARnedt did not conduct a poll of public opinion about the sculpture, because she has publicly admitted she did not, in what she has done and in what she has not done. My questions to you on this board are not addressed to you alone other than rhetorically. We can only hope that an advisory committee will advise and move themselves to do so. Again, Pdg, why would you protect the advisory committee members in hoping no one "bothers" them about the sculpture? They are formally partly responsible for the sculpture project. Why would you release them from their roles when you don't know what they are? | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 783 Registered: 5-2004 |
To answer your first question, no, that is not at all what I said in another thread. I said I saw her start to object to something that Trustee Rosen said, at last Monday's BOT meeting, and then think better of it because she was not at the podium - so she sat back down and chose not to go to the podium for the rest of the meeting. I was also a member of the audience, and Ms. Arnedt did not speak get up to formally speak at all during that meeting, except to answer a speaker's question, confirming the news article that stated that $500,000 had been raised. But, even at that time, Ms. Arnedt was not being videotaped - you can just hear her replying in the background. The answer to your last question can be found within the last two paragraphs of my 9:01 pm post. However, if you are again posting for rhetorical purposes, please feel free to disregard my posts. I seem to make you angry, and that really is not at all my intention. My purpose is to share the facts that I learn and to try to refrain from being nasty about it. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4604 Registered: 1-2004  |
Did anyone eles notice that most of those on the LPMAF are also on or married to someone on the Advisory Committee? | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4605 Registered: 1-2004 |
SOrising- Of the names posted in the above list I am unable to get information for seven of the names. FIVE live in Maplewood. At least four live on Hillside (perhaps they were the ones 'polled')? Four are either on or related to s member of the LPMAF organization. Makes one wonder, doesn't it? | ||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 525 Registered: 1-2004  |
And the point of the discussion is...... How does the BOT set the priorities for the allocation of our limited tax resource? How are they communicated/articulated? | ||
| vermontgolfer Supporter Username: Vermontgolfer Post Number: 400 Registered: 12-2002 |
Jonathan, Accept my apology, since I did confuse you with someone else. As for where I live, I've been a South Orange resident for 23 years, oh, I almost feel like you of our BOT memebers now.  | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 228 Registered: 2-2006 |
Thanks for your last post, Pdg. If you look at the videotape in which Ms. Arnedt did speak (it may have been Feb 27th, not sure), I believe she is on there, at the podium, shaking her head when Dr. Rosen referred to a poll. So she publicly indicated she did not poll SO residents, and as noted, she did not include information about a poll in the packet of materials she gave to you. She herself has disclaimed taking a poll while she also has made statements to the media that an "overwhelming majority" of SO residents support her trying to get the sculpture to SO in the manner in which she has done so. I don't believe you intend to anger me and you don't. Your information is helpful. Could you just clarify what the advisory committee is whose members you just listed? I assumed it was an advisory committee of the Pierro Foundation rather than an advisory committee of the village? Is this correct? | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 553 Registered: 6-2005 |
I also re-watched the video of the BOT meeting. Ms Arnedt stated when referring to those folks who are against this project that "I disagree with them and so do a majority of residents, since I have spoken with them." She later stated that "I know the detractors are in the minority." If she did not take an actual poll, why state your credential as a professional pollster and why play lose with words which have specific meaning. But more importantly, why did the BOT's not feel the need to find out where the community sentiment truly lies, whether for or against, if given ALL the facts, before they went ahead and voted to proceed. There sense of urgency floors me, given their apparent indifference to the snail pace of key redevelopment projects in the downtown. | ||
| Bailey Citizen Username: Baileymac Post Number: 209 Registered: 3-2005 |
I can't imagine Ms Arnedt has spoken with "a majority" of South Orange residents. If there are 17,000 residents, that would mean she's spoken with more than 8,500 people. How many MOL'ers from South Orange spoke with her? From what I've read here, certainly not the majority. I would LOVE to see an actual poll taken, and resolve that issue. I think the results of the poll might be different if Tau is presented as " a gift" to South Orange, or as a possible $400,000.00 expenditure. | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 786 Registered: 5-2004 |
SO Rising - I have already written that I don't know what the Advisory Committee is or does. I actually have nothing at all to do with the LPMAF and/or the TSSP. The reason I have facts to share is because I called Cheryl Arnedt after she gave out her number during a BOT mtg. for anyone with questions. I had a lot of unanswered questions after reading this board for months so I called her. She didn't want to answer questions over the phone and so I made an appointment, went to her house, spoke with her for a little over an hour, saw the model, and left with the packet of info I keep printing quotes from. During that meeting I told her she should answer people on MOL and she declined saying something like 'people who post on MOL against the project don't want answers or accurate information.' She claimed none of them had called her. I then said that they should make a website with all the information that is in her packets so at least people on MOL could link to it for facts. She said she doesn't have the budget or time to do it. Frankly, I think that is a crock in this day and age. It is MUCH more cost effective, and certainly more efficient to disseminate information via a website vs. having one-on-one hour-long meetings and handing out expensive black folders full of physical information. It seems to me that the TSSP is either very naive, or is not truly interested in getting solid information out to the public. But that is just my opinion. It is also my opinion that Ms. Arnedt is a very nice person who has worked very hard for a charitable organization for years and she is understandably a bit defensive about it and she is probably incredulous that something that is clearly - in her mind - so right and good for South Orange, is being so vehemently opposed. It must be a rather rude wake-up call after having been seemingly surrounded by nothing but supporters for several years while the public was unaware of this expensive use of taxpayers dollars. That said, I agree it certainly does appear that she has lied when she asserts that a majority of residents supports her project. And I agree, that since she has repeatedly put forth her credentials as a former "professional pollster" for some TV station, she certainly should have known better than to make that claim lightly! I have posted it a few times in other threads, and here it is again. Cheryl's phone number and email address from her TSSP business card. 973-275-9840 Tonysmithproject@verizonmail.com. Many of you have valid questions that deserve answers. I strongly suggest you get them answered and share what you learn here on MOL.  | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3793 Registered: 5-2001 |
She doesn't have the budget for a website, but she had BUSINESS CARDS printed??? | ||
| SoOrLady Citizen Username: Soorlady Post Number: 3193 Registered: 9-2003 |
Bailey - I wonder how many South Orange residents know (even now) about the Tony Smith sculpture or the methods being used to finance it. There are only a handful of MOL posters. How did you find out about it.. here or somewhere else? | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 787 Registered: 5-2004 |
Bailey, I too would love to see a poll taken by our local government - AFTER all the currently known facts and details are published and distributed to every household - and I have been writing that on MOL since last Fall. I also spoke at a BOT meeting and requested it, although it felt like making a request of a brick wall and I'm sure that nothing will come of it. I think the BOT sees the few of us that have attended BOT meetings and spoken out against the sculpture and the way it has been handled as a few insignificant gnats that they have to tolerate until we go away. It is quite clear that they do NOT perceive that the numbers of residents who write on MOL, and the even fewer who are moved enough to attend and speak at BOT meetings, are anything close to a majority! You know what they say, Speak now... | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 788 Registered: 5-2004 |
MHD, yes, although it is smooth and not embossed. But it is two color. However, they also had a very chic two page, 5x5, FOUR color invitation printed on a sort of pearlized card stock on both sides for the upcoming "Art&SoulGala Honoring Roy Scott to benefit The Tony Smith Sculpture Project." Roy Scott is the owner of RE/MAX Village Square. (I think that is the realtor right next to where the sculpture is planned to be located.) It is black tie and will be held Saturday, May 13 6-11pm at the Orange Lawn Tennis Club. There will be a jazz cocktail hour, dinner, live music, dancing and silent and live auction. Sounds like fun! Cheryl told me it was already sold out even before she had mailed any invitations. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3795 Registered: 5-2001 |
PDG, I wonder who was invited to this "gala" on May 13. Whey wasn't the general public invited? If it is "sold out", why not have many more of them? Why not move it to a larger facility and have more people, so they can raise ALL the money? | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 790 Registered: 5-2004 |
I asked that, and the logical follow-up question: If you are able to raise ALL the fund necessary for the sculpture, would you reimburse the taxpayers? To which she replied 'Maybe. But only up to about $50,000. The town has to pay a large portion because of all the benefits it will receive.' (That is not a verbatim quote, just my memory, but the gist of it is correct.) And, frankly, imo, "ALL the money" also includes reimbursing the town for the costs associated with the original installation of the gazebo and fountain. If not for the sculpture, the gazebo and fountain would remain right where they are. If you wanted a piece of property with a house on it, and planned to knock it down and rebuild something else, you'd FIRST have to pay the current value of the land AND the house. Then you would incur the costs of tearing down the house and making changes to the land for your purposes. That's not a perfect analogy - does anybody get what I'm trying to say? | ||
| crabby Citizen Username: Crabbyappleton Post Number: 550 Registered: 1-2004 |
Yes. The Tau-ists will say or do anything to get this sheet metal installed. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2758 Registered: 5-2004  |
Here is what Ms Arnedt said about whether or not she took a poll: This is from her post on MOL, in the subthread under Where's the poll? There is a petition." She did make a big point of the fact that she was a pollster, both in her post, and when she spoke in front of the BOT, so it is understandable that people took that to mean she actually did a poll. Why else bring it up? They might have been a representative geographic sample, but they certainly were not a representative demographic sample. She is playing with words, and being very careful now, about what she says. This does seem to contradict her statement int he letter to the editor, where she claimed a majority of the town supported the status, and a minority opposed it. She did not indicate that these were her opinions, but stated them as facts, which they are not. They might be true, but until people are actually asked, we will never know. When you are surrounded by people who agree with your position, it is hard to believe you might not be int he majority. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1037 Registered: 10-2004  |
A majority of people everywhere support art in general. That doesnt mean that a majority of people support the Tau in the place of the gazebo. I think its misleading to the point of lying. If the question was "Do you support putting the Tony Smith Statue of the Tau in the place of the gazebo at a cost of 500,000 to the town? I doubt she would get 20% to say yes. | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 795 Registered: 5-2004 |
Especially if the people were told at the same time what the date and tax-payer cost of the gazebo/fountain installation were and how long the term of the bonds used to finance that improvement was. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 293 Registered: 1-2006 |
This Tony Smith is working with the BOT to help pay for the other Tony Smith fiasco. Verbatim, from a google site way down the tony smith listings, past the MP, strenghtening coach, scientists, and more: Dear friend, I am Mr. Tony Smith, an official with one of the APEX banks in South Africa. My colleagues and I have an urgent and very confidential business proposal for you. On the 6th of June 1998 an American gold miner ran an account with us and his present balance is valued at US$18,500,000.00 ( Eighteen Million, Five Hundred Thousand United States Dollars Only) in my Bank. We sent a routine notification to his forwarding address but got no reply. After a month, we sent a reminder and finally, we discovered from his employers that he died from an automobile accident. On further investigation, we found out from his account file that he never made a will and all attempt to trace his next of kin was fruitless, as he had none. We therefore made further investigations and discovered that he did not declare any next of kin or relations in all his official documents in the bank files. This sum of $18,500,000.00 is still lying in the bank and the principal sum and interest is being rolled over at the end of every year. As it is now, no one will ever come forward to claim this money. According to the S/African law, at the expiration of 5 (five) years, the money will revert to the ownership of the Government if unclaimed. Consequently, my proposal is that I would like you to stand in as the next of kin. This is simple; all we need is some of your details so that the Attorney will prepare the necessary documents and affidavits which would put you in place as next of kin. We shall also employ the services of an accredited Attorney for the drafting and notarisation of the WILL and to obtain the necessary documents and letters of probate/administration in your favour for the transfer. The money would be shared in the ration that we both shall agree upon. There is no risk at all as the paperwork for this transaction will be done by the Attorney and my position as a manager guarantees the successful execution of this transaction. If you are interested, please reply immediately via email. Please observe utmost confidentiality and be rest assured that this transaction would be most profitable for us. I shall still require your assistance to invest my own share in your country just incase you can help, otherwise we'll take our share. please send your reply to this email address; tonysmith2003_604@hotmail.com Awaiting your urgent response. Mr.Tony Smith. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4609 Registered: 1-2004 |
I am pretty sure it was said she polled the majority of South Orange residents... I still have the meeting downloaded on my computer. I'll suffer through it tomorrow to find where she said this... | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2776 Registered: 5-2004 |
She did not say she polled a moajority of the town. She never used the word poll except in the context of saying she was a pollster. | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 808 Registered: 5-2004 |
I don't know how to post a link to my post of 4/3/06 at 5:20 pm, but here is the text of it, which includes a written quote of Cheryl's. _____________________________________________________________ Here is a quote from Cheryl Arnedt's 2/23/06 Letter to the Editor of the News-Record: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: An overwhelming majority of South Orange residents stands alongside us in support of the sculpture project. They're as eager and excited as we are to see this monumental art project completed and to reap the benefits it will bring. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wonder what supporting documentation Ms. Arnedt, Director of the Tony Smith Sculpture Project, has to back up the "overwhelming majority" statement. Surely she wouldn't mislead the public further by publishing incorrect suppositions as fact. Overwhelming implies well over 50%, which would mean well over 8,482 people! Wow! I suppose a formal poll or survey was done after all. I would very much like to see it posted somewhere on-line. Perhaps one of her MOL-posting supporters could suggest that it be posted on the village website since she is reluctant to post on MOL. Then we could at least provide a link to it on MOL and clear up much of the confusion surrounding this publicly funded project! | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 809 Registered: 5-2004 |
Since she has repeatedly claimed to be a "professional pollster" Cheryl certainly knows better than to talk about majorities without some sort of hard evidence. Accidently saying something irresponsible in public, while nervous, etc. is understandable, and is easily explained as such along with an apology - although we have not had the benefit of that explanation that I've seen/heard. However, to submit something so misleading for publication as fact - I really can't imagine what she was thinking! If there is no explanation as to the source for her written statement of fact, I hope to see a letter to the editor correcting the error and apologizing for misleading the readers. | ||
| Bailey Citizen Username: Baileymac Post Number: 210 Registered: 3-2005 |
I agree that Ms Arnedt should clarify her statement. How did she determine the "overwhelming majority" support this project? | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3811 Registered: 5-2001 |
The same question could be posed of the BOT? In the Star Ledger article from Jan 9, 2003, Bill Calabrese was quoted as saying "The town is 100 percent behind this". What was the basis of his "poll"? http://www.southorangevillage.com/cgi-bin/show.cgi?tpc=3133&post=569803#POST5698 03 |
