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SOSully
Citizen
Username: Sullymw
Post Number: 1229
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 9:33 am: | 
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it is strewn with debris near the pond. is someone supposed to keep it clean? Maplewood's stretch of the river is so much more beautiful and cleaner. Why is this town going to the dumps? |
Agrackle
Citizen
Username: Agrackle
Post Number: 37
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 11:07 am: |
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Hmmmmm, $900,000+ in debt service, no revenue being generated from ShopRite, Beifus, Sayid, Vose Hole....could that be why we have no budget for any project that might have a positive effect on our property values (unrelated, of course, to the Midtown Direct)? |
Howard Levison
Citizen
Username: Levisonh
Post Number: 549
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 11:55 am: |
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Because the Village has refused to pay the $150,000 clean up cost required by the Corp of Engineers. Now that it is a prerequisite for the River Project they have placed it in the Budget.
They tried to use Open Space Trust Fund monies but were called on it by the CBAC. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2725
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 12:04 pm: |
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Howard: That is not exactly the full story. Several years ago the BOT requested that the clean-up be coordinated with the towns to the north of us. It would not make a lot of sense for us to clean the river when the other towns were not doing so. Also, we wanted to coordiante the clean-up with the river corridor project (as suggested by the consultant).
By the way, every spring there is a volunteer river clean-up day. It has been pretty successful and a lot of garbage is cleaned up each year.
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Walker
Citizen
Username: Fester
Post Number: 252
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 12:52 pm: |
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Why is keeping the river clean not already part of general town maintenance? |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 2842
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 12:59 pm: |
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Mark, when you say "clean up the river," can you expand on what that really means? Do you mean cleaning the banks of the river, or some type of cleaning of the riverbed itself?
If it's the banks, I take issue with your statement that "[i]t would not make a lot of sense for us to clean the river when the other towns were not doing so." Sure it would. It would mean we had clean riverbanks.
However if it's something more dramatic, I would agree. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2726
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 1:28 pm: |
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Rastro: It means the riverbed. Of course, the whole issue would be helped a lot if people stopped using the river as a garbage pail. The work needs to be done on a regular basis. What bothers me is this should be coordinated on a much larger level than being done on a piece meal basis. I was actually very surprised when I was first on the BOT to learn that the state of NJ does not have a coordinated plan for the rivers, the waterways, the water supply or even the ports. What the state has done is to dump the responsibility on to the municipalities along with the cost associated with the cleanup.
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Howard Levison
Citizen
Username: Levisonh
Post Number: 550
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 1:41 pm: |
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I don't think Maplewood & Millburn take the same position on the condition of their portions of the river.
Mark, if what you state is the position SO has taken then what have they done to coordinate with the other towns?
Also, it is my impression that if the river didn't look like a dump then people wouldn't use it as a dump! |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3861
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 1:44 pm: |
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Quote:What the state has done is to dump the responsibility on to the municipalities along with the cost associated with the cleanup.
I can only imagine how much better the river could look if we spent $250,000 to clean it up. Hmmm....where would we find $250,000...... |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 576
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 1:50 pm: |
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Students from CHS do a river cleanup each year...I did it my freshman year and lemme' tell you the stuff we found was pretty gross...
Some notable things were:
Some shopping carts.
A cool frisbee
A lawnmower
and...
Half of a dog?! |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2727
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 1:58 pm: |
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I am actually pretty sure most towns take a similar position (to ours) do the "required" clean-ups as infrequently as possible. I remember that Orange was not plannig to do another one for a while. Milburn waited as long as possible. I remember they had a major issue when we had the big storm a few years ago. Up to that point, the river in their downtown also looked like a garbage dump. They were forced to clean-up and fix a major retaining wall.
There has been a volunteer clean-up every year for several years. Last year, I think it was done twice. I remember it actually being fairly free of garbage after the first clean-up, so I can't agree with your statement. It would seem pretty clear to me that some people see it as a giant garbage pail.
It would seem to me a member of the CBAC would want to see the village try and figure out a way to minimize this expense while trying to seek a coordinated effort with other towns. There could be some savings if several towns got together and had the work done at the same time by the same vendor. It was my feeling that was the direction given by the trustees.
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Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 577
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 2:06 pm: |
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supposed also a bunch of the trash floats downriver from other towns and such during rainstorms |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2728
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 2:09 pm: |
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Glock: Exactly and one of the best reasons why there should be an effort coordinated by the county or the state. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3862
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 2:30 pm: |
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Maybe we could use Tau as a damn to keep all the garbage upstream?
Kidding! |
Walker
Citizen
Username: Fester
Post Number: 253
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 2:42 pm: |
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Surely there is a way of improving the situation! The section in Maplewood is much cleaner than in South Orange.
The idea that we will not clean up our section of the river because those up river do not is just laughable, if we want our section of the river to be even partially clean it is up to the town and its citizens.
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mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2730
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 2:57 pm: |
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Walker: As pointed out by Mr. Levison, it is in the budget. However, there is no question that unless the river cleaning and dredging is part of a larger effort, it is a short-term fix. There also needs to more of an effort of preventing garbage (not just in S. Orange) from being dumped in the storm drains.
I did NOT say that we would not clean up our portion of the river unless those up river did, only that it would make more sense if it was done as part of a larger coordinated effort. The idea is to clean up the river for the short and for as long a time frame as possible in a cost effective manner.
Think of it as living downhill from a neighbor who never rakes his leaves. He just waits for nature to take it's course so all the leaves wind up on your property. You keep cleaning your portion only to have the rest of his leaves wind up on your property anyway. Obviously it would make more sense to let him do his final fall clean-up prior to you doing your property.
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Walker
Citizen
Username: Fester
Post Number: 254
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 3:21 pm: |
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Mark;
I understand that is in the budget as I understand how the garbage ends up in the river.
While it make more sense for it to be part of a larger effort coordinated with other towns, I doubt that towns like Orange will have any money in the next few years to do anything of this nature.
The river looks like some one drove a garbage truck down the length of it. It needs to be cleaned on a regular basis regardless of what other towns are doing.
As for your analogy what happens if the neighbor never cleans up his leaves and they all blow into my yard am I meant to follow his example and ignore the problem or do I get out there and clear up the leaves.
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SOSully
Citizen
Username: Sullymw
Post Number: 1231
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 3:36 pm: |
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yes, if we just keep waiting for everyone else to join in then it will continue to look like a dump. walker is right: if my neighbor doesn't do it then I go out and do it myself because I care about my property. we have a beautiful town and it should be a priority to keep it clean regardless of what surrounding towns are doing. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2733
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 4:06 pm: |
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Walker: What you do is call code enforcement and the neighbor is then forced to clean his leaves. In the case of the river, all I want is to see the state take the lead to coordinate the effort. It is really not ingoring the problem, it is trying to deal with it in a more effective way instead of just continuing to do the same. I am sure after a few years of cleaing up your neighbor's mess you would at least attempt to ask him to do his fair share, especially if you are paying someone to clean the leaves. All I want is to see every town do their fair share and in a timely manner.
I really can't believe that you can't understand the logic of at least attempting to find a more cost effective method of keeping the river clean and instead just say, well just keep spending money because others will never do what they are supposed to do.
SOsully, nobody said we should keep waiting. It is in the budget for this year.
Orange has to come up with the money just like S. Orange. They have no more choice in the matter than we do.
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SOSully
Citizen
Username: Sullymw
Post Number: 1232
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 4:10 pm: |
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Mr Rosner: thank you for being responsive to our questions/complaints. I just hope that we spend the money sooner rather than later so that the Spring/Summer season in the park is a beautiful one |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 282
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 4:17 pm: |
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Why can't SO lead, set an example, instead of waiting for others to take the initiative?
There is a snow ball effect: the dirtier it is, the less people will think about adding to it.
As for preventing people from dumping into storm drains, a start would be to pass ordinances forbidding it, with stiff or graduating fines to deter people from doing it, widespread advertisement and education that it won't be tolerated. If anyone reports a violation, the town should act swiftly to prosecute or sanction the violator. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2734
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 4:22 pm: |
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SORISING: Actually, we were taking the initiative. Rather than continuing the same pattern, it seemed time to try a different appoach.
There are ordinances that prevent dumping, the question is enforcement. Last year at SHU day many of the storm drains had "no dumping" spray painted on them. There was also something sent in the gaslight a couple of years ago. No question more education is needed. |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 283
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 5:15 pm: |
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Great. Each and every storm drain in town should also be painted with no dumping signs. Notices about it should be published with the recycling schedules that include information about how to report violators. Fines should be stiff enough to deter. Do the storm drains empty into the river? Like a lot of enforcement problems with a small police force, alert citizens can help. The eyes and ears of the public can be powerful if focused and people are aware of the problem and its costs. What has been dumped in the drains, in what quantities and with what frequencies in the past?
I'm not sure what you are saying, T. Rosner, about trying "a different approach"? Would you elaborate, please? Are you saying that previously SO did keep the river banks clean and it then decided not to? Why couldn't the responsibility to keep clean whatever it could be part of a shared services effort, funded by several municipalities (SO, Mplwd, Milburn, others?) Whatever towns the river went through could get together even if the county wouldn't. If the towns were in agreement, they could lobby or apply for grants to get the effort funded more and more by the county, at least cost-shared. Private endowments are also possible, if there were enough interest and support in the towns that share the river. You know how the Central Park Conservancy works? There could be a similar goal of private-public sector support for restoring, monitoring and maintaining the river.
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Walker
Citizen
Username: Fester
Post Number: 255
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 5:39 pm: |
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Mark;
The budgeted money is for the river walk project correct me if I am wrong i.e. clean up being part of the project which is great, now all we have to do is wait and see how long it takes to get the project underway.
In the interim the river looks like a dump and needs to be cleaned up!
Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.
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Howard Levison
Citizen
Username: Levisonh
Post Number: 551
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 6:12 am: |
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Mark, the CBAC did agree on a scheduled cleanup but our suggestion was not to take the monies from the Open Space Trust Fund. We also recommended that a policy be established that prohibited use of Open Space Trust Funds for any Operating Expense.
My question was in agreement with your comment but again what has the BOT/Administration done to coordinate with either the State or other towns? Has this issue been on the Environmental Commission agenda?
How will this problem be controlled/coordinated under the proposed River Project?
_____________________________________
"It would seem to me a member of the CBAC would want to see the village try and figure out a way to minimize this expense while trying to seek a coordinated effort with other towns. There could be some savings if several towns got together and had the work done at the same time by the same vendor. It was my feeling that was the direction given by the trustees.
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thegoodsgt
Citizen
Username: Thegoodsgt
Post Number: 949
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 7:46 am: |
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I may have missed any changes over the last couple of years, but wasn't there a grant for some kind of river project in South Orange (for small bridges, etc.)? I seem to recall it being quite a bit of money, maybe $200K? |
Howard Levison
Citizen
Username: Levisonh
Post Number: 552
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 8:02 am: |
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Try millions - see http://www.southorange.org/development/RiverMP.pdf |
JoRo
Citizen
Username: Autojoe51
Post Number: 99
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 4:24 pm: |
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Another question: Why do we have highly developed bicycle and river plans, but no proper master plan? |
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