| Author | Message | ||
     Hamandeggs Citizen Username: Hamandeggs Post Number: 265 Registered: 8-2005 |
There's a huge outline of a gun on the hill. What in the world is it doing there? I called the police since the folks at Baird didn't seem to know anything about it. Renegade art? Protest? Warning? | ||
| Monster© Supporter Username: Monster Post Number: 2920 Registered: 7-2002  |
Maybe Glock 17 paid a visit in the middle of the night  | ||
| Hamandeggs Citizen Username: Hamandeggs Post Number: 266 Registered: 8-2005 |
Maybe. It's big -- 80ft x 60ft or so -- and in the shape of a machine gun. It's easy to recognize and it's made of flowers. There were kids all over it id'ing the trigger, the bullets, etc. I imagine that it's a statement, but it could very easily be read -- at least from a distance -- as a glorification of guns. I was horrified to see a gigantic gun made attractive to children. Children do not know irony until they have been around for a while; what they see is literal and concrete. I began my career in a school where students died from gun violence and anything at all that puts guns in front of kids in any, any, any positive, pretty, accessible way misfires badly. (Perhaps this belongs in Soapbox now.) | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4838 Registered: 1-2004  |
Maybe someone can go rip it up in the middle of the night? | ||
| Nancy - LibraryLady Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3349 Registered: 5-2001  |
Could it be related to this?? I really have no idea. http://www.southorange.org/articles.asp?articleID=137 | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9319 Registered: 4-1997  |
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| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4842 Registered: 1-2004 |
But doesn't that begin 7 May? I still say someone should rip it up. Then go throw the flowers on Cheryl's lawn.  | ||
| Matt Foley Citizen Username: Mattfoley Post Number: 639 Registered: 6-2004  |
Geeze, the youth of today have one up'd my generation. It used to be fashionable to flip one's father's car on Floods Hill. Now we have guerilla art? This town is changing for the better. ** flipping a motor vehicle is stupid and dangerous. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4846 Registered: 1-2004 |
One of my friends would drive his car down Floods Hill, through the field by the Community Center and drive down Irvington Ave the wrong way after it became a one way. By the way Matt, check your email. I'm sending you a PL. | ||
| Monster© Supporter Username: Monster Post Number: 2929 Registered: 7-2002 |
I don't agree with ripping it up | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4847 Registered: 1-2004 |
Okay then Monster we can go plant more flowers in the middle of the night so it doesn't look like a gun? Come on, I haven't seen it but it is very out of place being in an area lots of children play. | ||
| Jersey Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 609 Registered: 1-2006  |
Lets stage a protest against this floral protest against war. B.Y.O. irony. No children allowed. J.B. | ||
| Ink Citizen Username: Pageturner Post Number: 98 Registered: 2-2005 |
If it got your attention and caused a discussion (even one that meanders), the students may have succeeded in their aims... Any students out there that can talk about the intention? PS Us older folks remember the famous photograph of an anti-Vietnam war protester putting a flower in the gun barrel of a stony faced national guardsman - maybe the students have been studying history? HamandEggs, I would love the opportunity to explain to my five year old what the gun made of flowers might mean and why the kids might have put it up there... We have talks about symbolism all the time. How else do you explain the significance of ie., the flag, saying the pledge of allegiance, peace signs, 'tau!', etc. etc. Understanding irony is not a far jumping off point from there. PPS I, too, started my teaching career in a really tough area, and my incredibly smart students loved discussing 'deep' issues. You mention there were children playing around the gun. What a great teachable moment for the parents! Protecting kids from learning how to unpack complicated issues, IMHO, doesn't actually protect them, in the long run. | ||
| Hamandeggs Citizen Username: Hamandeggs Post Number: 267 Registered: 8-2005 |
Yes, kind of, but what about the many, many kids up and down Flood's Hill who just see the gun and don't have the discussion? The kids I saw there yesterday were without parents and were assuming aloud and to one another that the person who made it thinks guns are "pretty and cool." That's what my kids thought as well. Glorifying guns is bad news, and Flood's Hill is not a gallery. It's a rare 5yo who has the life experience to see irony. Most kids develop it after the sarcastic years of early adoles. It's generally developmental. That's why teens love satire, which is related. Early than all of that, kids don't usually "get" irony, though I suppose it's possible. | ||
| Ink Citizen Username: Pageturner Post Number: 100 Registered: 2-2005 |
I'll take your word that there were many, many kids and that they were assuming what you say, and as you note, including your own. It would have been cool if the h.s. kids had engaged the younger ones in a conversation about what they were doing. Maybe they did? Any h.s.'ers out there? It sounds like you had a discussion with your kids. I really think the h.s.'ers did not intend to glorify guns. Maybe they could have presented their message more clearly - and maybe there were some adults around who talked to them and gave them suggestions about how they could have done that. I didn't stick around, and now I wish I had. In terms of Flood's Hill being a gallery - well, why not shake things up a little bit? We adults get to stick signs on our lawns, bumper stickers on our cars, etc. Give the kids space for having a voice and you'll see a lot less mindless acting out. I would have to respectfully disagree, also, about young kids not 'getting' symbolism, sarcasm, and all the rest. The developmental 'norms' are not written in stone, and I'm sure we all have many stories of how our kids were 'off the charts', both above and below. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4850 Registered: 1-2004 |
Ink- Kids didn't put it there. An adult did. Would you feel the same way if it looked like a naked woman? It's inappropiate. As Ham said, what about the children whose parents do NOT explain it? For the Rec Dept not knowing anything about it makes it even worse. Aren't they supposed to oversee what happens in the parks? | ||
| Hamandeggs Citizen Username: Hamandeggs Post Number: 268 Registered: 8-2005 |
An artist installed it (I asked at Baird), tho there is no sign or announcement of this fact. It was paid for by NJ state funds (Council on the Arts) and it cost about $1900. The artist is not local, and this is his personal statement about Bush and Iraq. At the very least, it should be labelled. | ||
| phd6786 Citizen Username: Phd6786 Post Number: 11 Registered: 3-2006  |
Perhaps by the time the exhibition opens (May 7) there will be a label. I amazes me that in a town that claims to be a friend of the arts, and that supposedly wants to attract artists from all over, one can find on this board respected long-time residents of this town who encourage vandalism. You have the Aunt suggesting that someone should rip-off the flowers, and in another thread Dan Shelffo and Joel Dranove who encourage tagging graffiti on public art. Posts like that are scary. They show not only a lack of art appreciation, but also a readiness to destroy anything that we don’t understand or we don’t like. They show bigotry and narrow-mindedness against anything different, and intolerance for anybody who doesn’t think like we do. So much for our diverse community! Open up your minds and hearts, friends. Feel how even the beauty of flowers at Flood's Hill cannot make your heart accept the terrifying image of a destructive weapon. See how some of us express our hope that this warmonger world we live in, can still be changed to the peaceful bed of flowers at Flood's Hill, if we really try. Teach our children the concept of peace and war through the contrast of a beautiful flower to gunmetal. Let these flowers remind us of the thousands of lives gunned down, for what? Let your heart speak to you. | ||
| Ink Citizen Username: Pageturner Post Number: 101 Registered: 2-2005 |
So if Baird knew about it, the Rec Dept. didn't? Interesting that there was no forewarning about this - who helped the artist with the installation? I assumed it was local teen-agers, because that's what it looked like from my vantage point. Were there no hand-outs or conversations with the artist? JTA- If there was a naked statue in the park would you think it was inappropriate? How about all the rusty cannons in town squares? Inappropriate? Not meaning to continue the apples to oranges comparisons, but again, I think we're serving one of the purposes of the piece by having this discussion. | ||
| Hamandeggs Citizen Username: Hamandeggs Post Number: 269 Registered: 8-2005 |
My heart is speaking in horror that a gun is glorified and beautified in a place of public recreation. And, quite frankly, artificial flowers are an abomination. They make an anti-environmental statement as much as anything else. I chose to live here for diversity. Apparently my diversity ends at making guns attractive and appealing. | ||
| Dan Shelffo Citizen Username: Openspacer Post Number: 183 Registered: 6-2001  |
Graffiti equals public disorder and is an invitation to more serious crimes. Graffiti must be dealt with and removed as soon as it happens. I believe that when TAU is put up it will get tagged. I do not encourage graffiti, vandalism or breaking the law in any way, shape or form but if TAU is put up you have to include the ongoing maintenance costs in all future municipal budgets. Unfortunatly, part of the maintenance costs will be graffiti removal. Another problem I have with TAU is that I do not find it particularly appealing. There are even other Tony Smith pieces like “Free Ride” that I like better. But thats just my opinion and I don't want to force what I like on anyone. Perhaps we should approach the area where the as of yet unpaid for gazebo now sits as a rotating exhibit. Madison Square Park in NYC does this. They rotate the art on display several times a year. The gazebo area could be where different artists have their art displayed. Featured artists could have their art installed for a period of a few months and then it is removed and another exhibit is put up. Smaller pieces could be used to line the entrance pathway to SOPAC. I also think a constantly changing display of art would be more conducive to bringing people into the downtown and do more to enhance our reputation as a diverse artist friendly place. As for the cost, Madison Square Park does it using a combination of grants, donations and public funding from the parks budget. They fund it in a transparent manner. They even mention the funding on their website (www.madisonsquarepark.org). As for the gun on the hill, I have not seen it yet but I think I will like it much less than the “gates” of last summer which were great. I do not consider the gun graffiti. It is art, not art I like, but art none the less. Anyway, it’s temporary and with our shrinking open space being used by more people we have to allow soccer, baseball, Frisbee and freedom of expression in the space that we still have. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 772 Registered: 7-2005  |
Official statement from the desk of Glock 17: I in no way, shape, or form had anything to do with this. Nor do I take credit for it. Even though that is fr33kin sw33t | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4854 Registered: 1-2004 |
phd My reason for saying to rip them out was the original note mentioned the Community Center didn't know anything about it. After Nancy posted the link and I followed it, I saw this was the same group of people shoving the Tony Smith Sculpture on us. My second note did have a 'smile' at the end of it. I thought, "Oh no, here they go again. And it looks like this time they didn't even ask permission of the Baird Center.' Now that I see differently by hams post 11:14am. At least this isn't as ugly as the pile of junk in the Duck Pond a year or so ago, and it's not going to cost us more then $250,000. I would be interested though who thought this up. Aren't there plenty of local artists against the war? Ironically between this morning when I first posted and a little while ago my nephews came home from baseball tryouts. They were talking about the 'strange way the flowers were planted on the hill.' One was saying it was stupid because guns are bad and flowers are pretty. He wanted to know what little kids are going to think because they might think guns are good when they see the flowers. Something else, they are fake flowers! Ink I used the naked statue as an example. If there was a fountain of a naked man with the water squirting from you know where, you can bet your bottom dollar there would be a lot of offended people. Maybe if there had been some sort of explanation by the flowers it would have been different. I'm still not sure it sends the right message. I have to go look at it to see for myself. And I agree with you about the fact it's gotten a reaction out of people and promoting a discussion which is what it's intend most likely was. But, I'm not so sure a lot of the kids are having discussions with an adult about it. phd I do know Poppies have been a symbol for those killed in the war. Couldn't the 'artist' have thought of something else to use as a symbol over a gun? Or at least have had something that explained it's meaning? | ||
| Dan Shelffo Citizen Username: Openspacer Post Number: 184 Registered: 6-2001 |
In Flanders Fields by Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae, MD (1872-1918) Canadian Army In Flanders fields the poppies blow Between the crosses, row on row That mark our place; and in the sky The larks, still bravely singing, fly Scarce heard amid the guns below. We are the Dead. Short days ago We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow, Loved and were loved, and now we lie In Flanders fields. Take up our quarrel with the foe: To you from failing hands we throw The torch; be yours to hold it high. If ye break faith with us who die We shall not sleep, though poppies grow In Flanders fields. In 1915, inspired by this poem Moina Michael replied with her own poem: We cherish too, the Poppy red That grows on fields where valor led, It seems to signal to the skies That blood of heroes never dies. This is where the tradition of veterans selling poppies on Memorial Day comes from. | ||
| phd6786 Citizen Username: Phd6786 Post Number: 12 Registered: 3-2006 |
Dan Shelffo, Your post #179: http://www.southorangevillage.com/cgi-bin/show.cgi?tpc=3133&post=562820#POST562820 with the urging to "Tag up", and your photoshop masterpiece:  makes your post #183 on this thread above sound hypocritical and phony when you say: "Graffiti equals public disorder and is an invitation to more serious crimes. Graffiti must be dealt with and removed as soon as it happens." Which is it Dan Shelffo? Aren't you inviting "public disorder" and "more serious crimes" with your pushing for a "Tag up" on Tau? I am sorry but your two posts show duplicity and irresponsibility, not expected from a good citizen like yourself. | ||
| Nancy - LibraryLady Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3358 Registered: 5-2001 |
Auntie, the Pierro Gallery is sponoring this installation not " this was the same group of people shoving the Tony Smith Sculpture on us. ", although Judy is involved in both exhibitions. So that makes it right to advocating valdalism and desttruction, even tho, by your own account you haven't even seen it yet (at least when you posted that sage advice). Rip it up? Throw the flowers on someone's lawn who is not involved at all. Maybe next you'll come into the library in the middle of the night and remove some books that you deem "inappropriate" Statements like this from a respected poster make one wonder if that respect is justified. JTA, I am disappointed. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 431 Registered: 1-2006 |
I never advocated graffiti on so-called "art." It will likely take place, and I observed the obvious. So, distort what you want and until you are content. Tau is junk, a half million dollar mistake, in a town which doesn't have parking space for SOPAC. jd | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 432 Registered: 1-2006 |
SOPAC is a sixteen million mistake, which bankrupted this town. jd | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 776 Registered: 7-2005 |
This town wasn't already? | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 435 Registered: 1-2006 |
It is hard to tell, because there hasn't been an accounting in the fifteen years I have lived here. SOPAC is draining us dry. The board's clever PILOT plans to benefit their chosen few has backfired, due to need to pay principal on muni bonds, with no pilot payments to date. Ugly and true. Fellini said it best, observing pre-WWII Italy in a wonderful movie entitled: And the Band Played On. Billy is our bandleader, and the board is his sextet. jd | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9322 Registered: 4-1997 |
I have no problem reminding people there's a war on in the midst of our beautiful spring weather, so the gun is art in its truest and best sense. Bravo to the artist. People trying to protect their children would do a better service turning the television off. Lying to citizens and indulging in profligate spending is a different story. | ||
| Nancy - LibraryLady Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3359 Registered: 5-2001 |
And( should be ) a different thread. | ||
| Jersey Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 632 Registered: 1-2006 |
I just asked my wife, how whe would interprete a flower bed shaped like a gun. She said, "It's suggestive of the peace movement, like when the protester put the flower in that rifle." Of course she's only five years old... J.B. Also, I remember hearing an adult D.J., on the radio, comment after the Beatles, "Happiness is a Warm Gun." He said, "I'm not sure I agree with that, but it's a great song." Irony often is missed by the stupid, of any age. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4856 Registered: 1-2004 |
Nancy- Don't know if you are aware of this but four of the five PG Trustees are Board members of the Tony Smith Sculpture Project. AND it was the original idea of the PG to try to get a sculpture. So in essence they are the same group of people. I do feel the sculpture was shoved down our throats. It seems the tax payers were lied to about more then one aspect of the sculpture; as people have posted on MOL and stories in the Ledger and Snooze Wreckered reported. My first comment was made before I knew this was a planned exhibit and was under the impression from the first note nobody offical knew about it. I got the impression someone took it upon themselves to put something in the park. My second post when I saw where it came from was more tongue in cheek as Cheryl is on both boards. I have seen it now and to tell the truth from where I was on Mead Street I couldn't tell what it was. It is just an outline, not filled in with anything. I'm going to try to go again tomorrow to take a picture of it. There was no place to park this afternoon. Why are so many things in town being done to protest the war? I don't agree with the war; but nobody was drafted to fight in this war. A good number of people enlisted aftre 9.11 with the intent to fight in this war. What kind of message are we sending to the families of the men and women who live in our community with loved ones who who choose to fight for what they think is the right thing to do? I think there is a big difference between having this 'exhibit' in the PG vs Floods Hill. Not all parents (adults) in the community are as open with some discussions with their children as some of us are. I agree with Hamand, it seems to be 'glorifying guns.' Maybe if it had been more along the line of the riffle with a flower? Another thought, why use fake flowers; as someone posted? But I do apologize for my comments. I honestly wasn't serious the second post. And the first, well if someone at the Baird Center had know something about it when Hamand first posted, I wouldn't have made it. One last thought and then I'm removing myself from this subject, LL there is a big difference with books people might not agree with in the library and something displayed on Floods Hill. Nobody forces you to take a book you find offensive off the shelve. If you have children playing soccer, you have no choice but to see what's on the field. | ||
| thegoodsgt Citizen Username: Thegoodsgt Post Number: 961 Registered: 2-2002  |
That's supposed to be a gun? | ||
| FlyingSpaghettiMonst Citizen Username: Noodlyappendage Post Number: 77 Registered: 11-2005 |
There are certain (unsophiscated) posters here who seem NOT to appreciate public art. Perhaps a nice painting of kittycats with big eyes on a velvet background would be more to their taste?? | ||
| Hank Zona Supporter Username: Hankzona Post Number: 5549 Registered: 3-2002 |
Anyone with art sense knows paintings of kittycats with big eyes on black velvet is not fine art...dogs playing cards on black velvet -- well, thats art. when I saw it in mid-construction, it looked like an outline of a thunderbird...I'll have to go look again. I can think of a lot more offensive things that are considered art...if my kids were to think it was cool because it was a gun, it would be my job as a parent to set them straight. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4864 Registered: 1-2004 |
JB- Your wife is five?  | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4865 Registered: 1-2004 |
There is a sign there now. I drove through there this morning and there is a sign at the corner of Ridgewood and Mead. Will someone please respond to the message we are sending to people in our community by having exhibits and rallies against the war, but there hasn't seem to be anything to show support for those living in South Orange with family members and friends who choose to enlist after 9.11 because of 9.11? As I said, I'm against the war, but I fully support those who because they felt it was the right thing for them to do, have choosen to fight in the war. I don't think it's the same as it was in the 60's when, with the draft, there was no choice.  edit added: I founf this a couple of years ago when one of the papers had an online Memorial for those killed in the war. | ||
| K_soze Citizen Username: K_soze Post Number: 100 Registered: 11-2005  |
I try not to respond to certain posts, IMO there's no point in arguing your case with people who'll never change their views (mainly with political and religious issues). Enter the topic of art, sure there's always the debate on what is and isn't art but I feel if your version of "art" is based solely to push your political agenda it's complete horseshit. There should be a forum for you if this is the way you want to get your point across, just not where young impressionable minds who may have no clue of the intended statement can be exposed to it, the ones who get no explanation or have no guidance will only see one thing......AK-47, wow...cool dude. FlyingSpaghettiMonst- I personally am disgusted by that thing on the field you call "art", for this you label me unsophisticated. We don't know each other but I'm gonna go ahead and label you asswhole.......why not. BTW, you spelled unsophisticated wrong  Someone told me art is supposed to invoke emotion, indeed this gun is doing so......then again the guy that cut me off on the parkway today invoked some pretty intense emotions, but we wouldn't exactly call him an artist now would we. The Avtomat Kalashnikova has widely been known as the world's most used and deadliest assault weapon, no other gun has been sold or smuggled more often. It's durability ensures that every one who intends to kill with one has a great chance of doing so without chance of malfunction and it's simplicity has been proven by the child soldiers of Liberia & Sierra Leone. There are an estimated 75 million in circulation. Why would you glorify this weapon (as art) to state your political position? Why not use those fake flowers as headstones? Cover as much of the filed as possible, marking for each of our soldiers who have died in this war. I think something like that would make the same point and be appreciated by more people. |
