| Author |
Message |
    
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1361
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 8:48 am: | 
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cfb - I have 1300 + posts. I am as addicted to this mess of a website as anyone else. Be careful at 12 posts you are entering the danger zone.
thanks a lot Dave |
Stevef
Citizen
Username: Stevef
Post Number: 208
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 8:53 am: |
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Was it the SOPD or the Essex Sheriff's office? I've heard both mentioned.
Perhaps the business owners can view this event as glass half full. I doubt patrons with warrants out for their arrest will want to hang there any longer.
My guess about the raid is that the police suspect the victim's whereabouts were phoned in to the assailant 20-30 minutes before the hit and that the victim wasn't at the pizza place long enough for the tip to come from there. It's a fairly logical conclusion reached by the police and one that I'm glad they followed up on. The racism claims don't add up in this case. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 927
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 8:56 am: |
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I'd have to say if what they say happened is true..then the business owner is out of his mind if hes not on the phone with his attorney right now. |
Phenixrising
Citizen
Username: Phenixrising
Post Number: 1663
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 9:32 am: |
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\i{ Correction on the facts before you jump on me: the victim was the convicted murderer.}
No bettyd!
Mickle pleaded guilty to conspiring to kill the teen and was sentenced to eight years in state prison.
“ A conspiracy is an agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime. A conspiracy to commit a crime is akin to aiding and abetting in that it applies to a wide array of criminal offenses. For example, if three people conspire to commit murder, at least one of them takes action to further the conspiracy, and the murder actually occurs, they all can be charged with both conspiracy and murder. Even if a conspirator backs out of the conspiracy, but the other conspirators commit the crime, all conspirators may be criminally liable if the acts were reasonably foreseeable.”
To what degree, we do NOT know unless we read the transcripts of this guy’s trial. If he was convicted of murder as his friend,I doubt he would be walking the streets after 8 years.
My younger son’s classmate was in the barbershop when the police raided the place. They were told to get down on the floor and the police SEARCHED the place, taking down the ceiling tiles, I guess hoping to find drugs. They found nothing. This poor kid was scared-to-death, so were other customers who were in the shop. If they were searching for individuals with outstanding warrants, there ARE other ways of doing this.
Doubt we would’ve heard of a raid if that assassination didn’t go down in front of Cluck-U. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 928
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 9:37 am: |
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Exactly. |
crabby
Citizen
Username: Crabbyappleton
Post Number: 608
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 10:25 am: |
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Why do you guys think you know so much and have all the details (glock, phenix, etc)? sheeesh. let the cops do their job. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 932
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 10:35 am: |
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I don't think I have all the details. And you know what? Don't need 'em. If we let the cops continue like this they'll go back in with SWAT and a chopper and we'll have not one dead black guy, but six. |
bettyd
Citizen
Username: Badjtdso
Post Number: 244
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 10:44 am: |
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crabby don't you see, they have all the information. After all, per Glock above, it is an irrefutable fact that "People assume that Black-owned barbershops are some sort of hotbed for crime." |
crabby
Citizen
Username: Crabbyappleton
Post Number: 609
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 10:46 am: |
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glock for police chief! |
Kitchenguru
Citizen
Username: Kitchenguru
Post Number: 85
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 11:01 am: |
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I'm sure this is redundant because most on this thread have said the same thing at least ten times. The fact is no one knows the motivation for the raid except the authorities involved. Just to make a comment about race though, all People of Color experience racism especially those identifiable as "Black" in our society regardless of their socioeconomic status. Read Blink by Malcolm Gladwell,
he has proof from Harvard University studies and testing that all people respond to "Blacks" negatively because our society inundates us with negative images of "Blacks."In addition there is no shortage of "Blacks" in the media portraying themselves as thugs,pimps and whores. Under these circusmstances we cannot judge who is doing what for what reason since we don't know. It's often
a conditioned response is this author's position and the Harvard Academians who conducted the studies have verifiable proof that we are all racists.
The author in fact submitted to the testing and all though he is half "White" American and half "Black" Jamaican his resposes were classified as racist. This occurred even though he (and all "Blacks") can name incidents in which they experience racism and he does give several accounts in his book of such incidents. Keep in mind the book is not about race issues but conditioned responses and this is just one example.Mr Gladwell is also an award winning writerfor the prestigious "New Yorker" magazine. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1366
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 11:01 am: |
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so crabby, if you were in a barber shop and the police raided the place you would be fine laying face down on the floor while they searched?
I wouldnt. I would be totally upset. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 933
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 11:04 am: |
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I'd be taken to the station for resisting, where I would use my phone call to call a news station. |
LW
Citizen
Username: Lrw
Post Number: 144
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 11:06 am: |
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I don't knkow if anyone answered this, maybe Jersey Boy, BettyD or Crabby can: Why didn't they raid the pizzeria and detain the patrons there, also? Afterall, this is the last place the victim had any interaction before he was killed. I don't think some of you would feel so indifferent to the unfair treatment that the barber shop received if you happened to be in there at that time, resulting in your being handcuffed, checked, and detained. |
Kitchenguru
Citizen
Username: Kitchenguru
Post Number: 86
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 11:31 am: |
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The police are under a lot of pressure from this community. This is one sure way to make a huge statement that they are doing something. I don't even know for sure if they did handcuff people and conduct a raid since I wasn' there. They may also have gotten a "tip" from one of our well-meaning community members.
Most people do have more of a relationship with their barber than the place where they buy pizza but on the face of it, questioning seems like all that was required. I hope we get the whole story soon because all of this speculation is becoming dangerous and devisive. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 934
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 11:38 am: |
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Yeah by "tip" you mean someone runnin' scared like the ones on this board lied.
THe relationship between a person and their barber is irrelevant. If it happened it should've happened across the board. |
Kitchenguru
Citizen
Username: Kitchenguru
Post Number: 87
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 11:59 am: |
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The relationship with the barber is not irrelevant. Someone from the barber shop could very well have shot him after a dispute of some kind. People confide in their hair professionals so that was a likely place to go for information. My point is we don't know enough to make blanket statements.
I do think that the people in this area who think they are living in "Mayberry RFD" just got a wakeup call. South Orange is right next to an urban city with
what is well documented as the poorest population in the country based on
the median income. The "Blacks" in South Orange have a higher median income than the "Whites." Maybe what should be under discussion here is what we all could be doing to help our neighbors in Newark to improve their lot. I personally do work in shelters and contribute in any way that I can and I am still willing to do more. Can we all try that approach? |
crabby
Citizen
Username: Crabbyappleton
Post Number: 610
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 12:02 pm: |
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Without the facts and evidence and circumstances I really am unable to speculate, but that is what some of you would rather do and it is unhelpful.
guru and bettyd seem to have their heads on straight, tho. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 935
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 12:07 pm: |
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No the relationship with the barber is totally irrelevant to an investigation of a shooting. They are all people, they all have eyes and ears and they all hear and see things.
I guess that the posters on this board just feel that black people are easier and more fun to screw around with to make themselves feel safer. |
Phenixrising
Citizen
Username: Phenixrising
Post Number: 1665
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 12:27 pm: |
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Why do you guys think you know so much and have all the details (glock, phenix, etc)? sheeesh. let the cops do their job.
Did I state I have all the facts crab?
The information I printed above was taken from the Star Ledger. The definition of conspiracy was printed from research. The raid on the barbershop was an account from my son's classmate, who WAS there and was scared. A young 13 year old is told to drop! I would be upset too. And what did the police find…NOTHING!
Again, if this shooting did not take place I doubt the raid would have taken place!
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Phenixrising
Citizen
Username: Phenixrising
Post Number: 1666
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 12:30 pm: |
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I wonder if this Mickles guy walked into Bunny's ordered a Pizza and beer sat outside to eat and was assassinated right there at the table, would the police raid Bunny's? |
crabby
Citizen
Username: Crabbyappleton
Post Number: 613
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 12:32 pm: |
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why don't you call them up and ask? |
stefano
Citizen
Username: Stefano
Post Number: 506
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 12:37 pm: |
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What kind of pizza? |
bettyd
Citizen
Username: Badjtdso
Post Number: 247
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 12:40 pm: |
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LW: I don't know what they did with repect to the pizza place or if they vigorously questioned the owners and patrons, but I would find it hard to believe they did not. I also don't know what information (and from what source) the police were acting on when they raided the barber shop. I don't believe anyone else does either. The law requires that the police have reasonable or probable cause to do what they did, and based on my knowledge of the SO Police I am willing to believe they did.
Do you know what information they were relying on, and from what source it came, which led them to conduct the raid in the manner they did? I assume, like me, you don't know, but believe, unlike me, that the police did not act appropriately.
So we have different beliefs on what transpired. Let's all just say we don't know all the facts yet and call a truce. I'm willing at this point to say let the police do their work and get to the bottom of this. Maybe when it's over we can do a FOIA request, or its NJ equivalent, and see what evidence they were acting upon.
Let's not forget that someone was murdered in our town. I'm sure we can all agree we don't want that to happen again.
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Phenixrising
Citizen
Username: Phenixrising
Post Number: 1668
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 12:52 pm: |
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So we have different beliefs on what transpired. Let's all just say we don't know all the facts yet and call a truce. I'm willing at this point to say let the police do their work and get to the bottom of this. Maybe when it's over we can do a FOIA request, or its NJ equivalent, and see what evidence they were acting upon.
bettyd,
I would love to know what evidence they had for their reasoning of raiding the place. There were innocent patrons and young kids in the shop. I would only HOPE that information (FOIA) would be revealed to the public. This I will agree on. |
Kitchenguru
Citizen
Username: Kitchenguru
Post Number: 88
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 12:55 pm: |
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what evidence do we have that they raided the place besides the account of someone's son's classmate? |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1367
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 12:59 pm: |
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take a look at the video of the last BOT meeting. The first order of business was the fairfield ave community complaining about safety issues and asking for more police presence and enforcement of codes around the strip.
Following the community group testimony the shop owners and a patron there also related their experience to the BOT. Following that Trustee Moore-Abrams quizzed the Police Cheif about the events and said to him she would speak with him the next day to get details.
What 'evidence' do you need? |
bettyd
Citizen
Username: Badjtdso
Post Number: 248
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 1:13 pm: |
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Phenix: I'm glad we can agree. I'll be the first to admit this shooting really rattled me. Still does. But with time I'm calming down a bit. |
Phenixrising
Citizen
Username: Phenixrising
Post Number: 1669
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 1:16 pm: |
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what evidence do we have that they raided the place besides the account of someone's son's classmate?
Do you need me notorize his statements about the raid?
Like Hoops said, check-out the video of the BOT meeting. |
Jersey_Boy
Citizen
Username: Jersey_boy
Post Number: 860
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 1:48 pm: |
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The story of the raid is NOT AT ALL, what I was defending. I was defending the rational for paying more attention to one of the businesses if you had good reason, and that race can be a good reason sometimes.
I assumed that we were talking about questioning politely, searching WITH a warrent, not this get-on-the-floor and handcuffing. Someting's off about that. THAT sounds like racism.
J.B. |
Kitchenguru
Citizen
Username: Kitchenguru
Post Number: 89
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 2:36 pm: |
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In was asking a question. I that allowed? |
Kitchenguru
Citizen
Username: Kitchenguru
Post Number: 90
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 2:41 pm: |
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Sorry, that posted before I was ready. I was asking a question, am I allowed to do that? I didn't know that the Police Chief CONFIRMED there was a raid and CONFIRMED that people were handcuffed face down on the floor and the place searched. If they did that without probable cause and a warrant then we are all in danger. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2775
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 3:00 pm: |
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On Friday, May 12, 2006 the Essex County Prosecutor’s Office Narcotics Unit conducted a search warrant at the barber shop. The result of the search warrant yielded negative results for contraband. Two individuals were arrested for outstanding warrants not related to the sale of narcotics. The South Orange Officers on the scene simply secured the exterior of the premises to ensure the Prosecutor’s Office was not interfered with during their investigation.
The investigation was not conducted by the South Orange Police Department.
(The above was taken from a report given to the BOT) |
Jersey_Boy
Citizen
Username: Jersey_boy
Post Number: 864
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 3:09 pm: |
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Facts? What are these doing here?
Seriously mrosner, thanks.
J.B. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 4075
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 3:23 pm: |
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From the Village website:
Village Holding Special Public Safety Meeting
In light of recent events and the Village’s commitment to open communication with our residents when serious incidents occur, South Orange is holding a special Public Safety Committee meeting on Thursday, May 25th at 7:00 pm. We welcome attendance from all residents so that we may directly address your concerns and keep you informed as to how these matters are handled both within Village Hall and in communicating with Villagers.
http://www.southorange.org/articles.asp?articleID=151 |
cfb
Citizen
Username: Cfb
Post Number: 13
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 9:30 pm: |
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Thank you MHD
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cfb
Citizen
Username: Cfb
Post Number: 14
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 9:43 pm: |
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bettyd,
I believe the NJ equivalent of a FOIA is an OPRA--Open Records Act. |
cfb
Citizen
Username: Cfb
Post Number: 15
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 1:36 pm: |
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Excuse me while I digress a bit ==>I said "just cause" in my previous post. I really meant to say "probable cause".
Kitchenguru,
In your previous post, you said:
“…I do think that the people in this area who think they are living in "Mayberry RFD" just got a wakeup call…”
>>>Are there really some people living here who think they are living in Mayberry RFD? That’s interesting. I wonder what gave them that impression. What about SO that’s similar to Mayberry RFD?
“…The ‘Blacks’ in South Orange have a higher median income than the ‘Whites.’
>>>What point were you trying to make? What is the connection? You lost me. Can you please clarify?
Also, what are you implying by the statement below?
“…Maybe what should be under discussion here is what we all could be doing to help our neighbors in Newark to improve their lot…”
>>>How is this related to the recent shooting?
Regarding this comment:
“..I personally do work in shelters and contribute in any way that I can and I am still willing to do more. Can we all try that approach?”
>>>Good for you!!! What approach would you recommend that we try vis-à-vis the recent shooting? Work in shelters? If so, how would that help? I’m open to any suggestions that can help.
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Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11559
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 2:58 pm: |
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Obviously having an ex-con and a senior member of a major street gang gunned down in broad daylight in your town is going to be pretty upsetting. I don't think anyone is going to argue that point.
Behond that, I really don't know how to sort out fact from fiction. Was he a regular customer at the barber shop or not? Why did the Essex County narcotics detectives feel there was a connection between drug dealing, the deceased and the barbershop? They were able to get a warrent from an Essex County Superior Court judge. Was there some level of "probable cause" demonstrated or does the narcotics squad have a tame judge who will sign anything? Would a search been conducted if the barbershop was white owned? Were people actually arrested during the raid? If so, on what charges? Is Hoops a regular at the barbershop and friendly with the owner?
Basically there are so many unanswered questions here it is impossible to make a judgement on why the raid took place and if there was credible evidence that the shop was being used for illegal activities.
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Kitchenguru
Citizen
Username: Kitchenguru
Post Number: 92
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 5:36 pm: |
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CFB
1."...It looks like Mayberry RFD around here..." was a direct quote from someone who lives here. You'd have to ask them why they feel that way. Probably because they don't read these posts.
2. My point about the income levels here is the juxtaposition of probably the largest population of wealthy "Blacks" living right next to the poorest city in the country where certainly some of the poorest "Blacks" live. It's very ironic,
and in addition I said more could be done by all of us (no exclusions)to help to make a difference in this area so life can be safer and better for all of us.
If you travel around the world mostly what you see are the very wealthy and the very poor. Our society is heading there. More of these incidents will happen to threaten the peace in our area if we don't do something about it.
That's why I called the shooting a wakeup call. I put this statement out there to temper all this talk about racism which is absolutely never going anywhere and just serves ro divide people further. Any objections?
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cfb
Citizen
Username: Cfb
Post Number: 16
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 10:17 pm: |
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Kitchenguru,
No objections, just a lot of confusion.
What was your source regarding Newark being the poorest city in the country? By stating that “…more could be done by all of us (no exclusions)to help to make a difference in this area so life can be safer and better for all of us...”, you’re implying that our crime problems come from Newark. If you do some research, you will find out that’s not the case. I’m not sure how making charitable contributions to Newark will prevent a hit man (whose place of residence is still unknown) from locating a Newark resident in SO and shooting him. If we need to do more to help our less affluent neighbors to ensure our peace and safety, then we should not stop at Newark. We need to also help East Orange, Orange and Irvington. Do the residents in SO have the resources?
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Kitchenguru
Citizen
Username: Kitchenguru
Post Number: 100
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 11:15 am: |
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My source is the US census which lists the poorest cities based on median income
Newark is the worst and Miami follows. I will publish it if you require that.
We are not discussing our "crime problems" we are discussing a specific shooting
which allegedly involved two Newark residents. In addition we were discussing
the perceived ramifications, one of which several people cited as racism.
I was not aware that we had any crime problems. When a housewife was bludgeoned to death in her quiet neighborhood by an immigrant hired by her landscaper, the town was not up in arms about it's "crime problems." Nor was there any talk about racism. I personally did not give the shooting in town a second thought. I'm willing to say a prayer that our town stays safe and do whatever I can to work toward that goal, beyond that there is nothing anyone can do about random violence. The rest of your statement I will not respond to since the answer is obvious. Now if you have any suggestions for me I would love to hear them. Thanks for your input. |
Kitchenguru
Citizen
Username: Kitchenguru
Post Number: 101
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 11:23 am: |
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CFB,
I stand corrected, Newark has actually improved it's median income over Miami as of 2004 by $2,278.00. I haven't looked at the stats lately.
http://dcjobsource.com/richest.html
It's still the poorest in the region. |
cfb
Citizen
Username: Cfb
Post Number: 17
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 12:58 pm: |
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Kitchenguru,
Just out of curiosity, is Newark poorer than Camden? The term “crime problems” is relative. Is the shooter from Newark? Has he been identified?
One difference between the recent shooting and the late housewife’s murder is that this shooting involved a senior member of a very violent gang (which has a strong presence less than 1 mile east of SO). The police have reasons to believe that it was gang related. Considering the growing gang problem in NJ (including the suburbs), most would say that this is cause for concern…especially if the shooting happed right downstairs or across the street from where you live. While there may not be much anyone can do about random violence, a lot can be done to help prevent further gang violence. If you did not give the recent shooting a second thought, then you are a lucky individual. Please continue with your prayers…every bit helps. |
Kitchenguru
Citizen
Username: Kitchenguru
Post Number: 102
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 1:28 pm: |
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The census report which I used ranks cities with populations over 250,000.00.
$23,431.00 is the median income in Camden which is lower than Newark's 26,309.00.
I'm sure we would all welcome your suggestions about what can be done about gang violence which is usually occuring around the most exciting and affluent cities in our nation,Los Angeles and New York City to name a few.
Like it our not, we live in an urban area. |
Kitchenguru
Citizen
Username: Kitchenguru
Post Number: 103
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 6:15 pm: |
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CFB
Here's an interesting piece on gang violence discussing some strategies:
http://faculty.washington.edu/nelgee/lectures/comments/hernan_rev001.htm
K |
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