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talk-it-up
Citizen
Username: Talkitup
Post Number: 232
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 6:32 am: | 
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What happened last night?
Residents in South Orange continue to plead their case in front of the Planning Board at a special meeting last night.
I cannot believe what I saw. Seton Hall made a request for variances at the ball field. They will make improvements that also include the ADDITION OF LIGHTING. THERE IS NO LIGHTING THERE NOW. WE WILL ALL BE IMPACTED BY THIS IN THE NIGHT SKY. THEY WILL HAVE GAMES AND PRACTICE.
Lighting around the fields being added, in addition TWO of the poles will be in excess of 80 feet I think the two are 90 FEET TALL.
How can that be? with they indicated over 26 lights on top of each,
26 LIGHTS ON TOP OF EACH OF TWO POLES. I did not catch how many were on top of the other poles.
THERE ARE NO LIGHTS THERE NOW AND THE RESIDENTS WERE TOLD THEY NEEDED TO COMPROMISE. Legally, they indicated that Seton Hall only had the right to put up fixtures 20 feet high.
What the heck is happening here?
Residents were about to break down and cry! It's in their back yard.
Some members indicated that if the residents CARED their would be more of them out. The first meeting had many more...
What happens? When do the residents in this Village count?
The chairman brought in the man that coaches Seton Hall, Shepard or something to also indicate that he would do some 'special things' for the little league??
Is this the behaviour expected from the chairman? Is there some special interest here?
How long does this continue?
Didn't anyone see it? Is there a way to help these people in this area?
Was this right what was done last night at the Planning Board????????????? |
dgm
Citizen
Username: Dgm
Post Number: 304
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 8:49 am: |
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Which ball field? |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1591
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 11:05 am: |
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You mean Owen T. Carroll Field on Seton Hall campus? There should be lights there- it's a multi-sport facility at a major college campus. The Village already has its own fields with lighting and there is no reason to deny Seton Hall the same advantages. |
Erin Cartman
Citizen
Username: Carnac
Post Number: 64
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 11:51 am: |
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I think the planning board did the right thing. It is not like they are going to be using the field at 2am! And as Brett said: "The Village already has its own fields with lighting and there is no reason to deny Seton Hall the same advantages." |
DRJ
Citizen
Username: Alaska
Post Number: 78
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 12:00 pm: |
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I agree. The planning board made the right decision. |
Cali6buff
Citizen
Username: Cali6buff
Post Number: 24
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 12:07 pm: |
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I also agree.
Seton Hall is as much a part of this comunity as the residents.
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Grspring
Citizen
Username: Grspring
Post Number: 95
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 2:42 pm: |
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Lighting was not the only issue. The general impact on the surrounding community was also a concern.
Night sports by their nature attract a larger attendance than day sports. Games could last till 11PM, weeknights. This does not account for the time it takes to clear the field. Based on the noise of games played during the day, we can expect it to be louder and last longer at night. The will be increased pedestrian traffic and street parking. There amount of litter already created by the students will increase. Those of us with jobs and children will be the ones who lose.
The houses on my street alone pay more in tax dollars to the town than Seton Hall's "contribution". This is a town now run by and for special interests.
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Nancy - LibraryLady
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3501
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 3:15 pm: |
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Seton Hall is as much a part of this comunity as the residents.
Albeit a tax exempt part!! |
joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 538
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 3:42 pm: |
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When SH pays full taxes, at appraised full market value, then and only then could it be considered as much a part of this community as the rest of us.
jd |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11676
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 3:47 pm: |
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Seton Hall has had a good baseball program for years, producing several major leaguers I believe, without a lighted stadium.
Why now?
Maybe envy of the women's softball program which is getting a brand new field in Ivy Hill thanks to the county, most especially Joey D whose daughter played on the team? |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1593
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 5:21 pm: |
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That new Ivy Hill field is two years old and DiVincenzo's daughter was long gone when they built it. I have posted many times that I don't believe Seton Hall contributes nearly enough to South Orange and that this "partnership" is very one-sided.
That said, railing about their tax exempt status every time an issue arises is old and worn out. They play within the rules, just as your churches and synagogues do, and opposing their requests out of "tax spite" is juvenile.
The neighbors in the immediate area have legitimate concerns that must be considered, but this is not an unreasonable request. It is also a plain simple fact that houses that border the campus are not going to experience the quiet of a neighborhood that borders the reservation. Houses near the Pathmark are going to hear trucks in the middle of the night and houses next to the railroad tracks are going to tremble when trains pass by. You don't by a home near a park or a grade school if you are bothered by large numbers of children. These are things you ponder when you shop for a home because they are impossible to change after you own one. |
Cali6buff
Citizen
Username: Cali6buff
Post Number: 26
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 5:25 pm: |
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Summary: money = equality. Very nice quotes from both of you.
And it's really about title 9, the field needs to be used by more teams. So you need more time. And since the sun goes down.... you figure it out. |
Nancy - LibraryLady
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3502
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 6:07 pm: |
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True, bitching about the problems being next to the university AFTER you buy there for a cheaper price then if you were near the reservation always reminds me of people who complain and demand sound walls be put up on the highways after they buy their discounted homes next door to the turnpike.
That being said, could a resident justifiable expect the installation of 90 foot high lights where there once were none? Was it something that was a reasonable expectation, especially since it violates current rules and would require a variance? Variances should be awarded only when a certifible hardship can be demonstrated, not cause it would be something that would be "nice" to have.
And, Brett, I also believe that religious property should be taxed as well, all religious property. Ain't gonna happen,but SHU would be a "better" neighbor if it kicked in many more bucks voluntarily to help defray the enormous costs it brings to the Village.
And finally, Hey JD..we agree on something. Woo Hoo!!! |
joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 541
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 6:19 pm: |
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I don't agree, except it is true.
jd |
Cali6buff
Citizen
Username: Cali6buff
Post Number: 27
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 10:52 pm: |
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It's your quote. And your ideal. How can you not agree?
You won't consider them an equal until they pay up.
I consider them an equal.
Please explain how you do not agree with that.
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Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1594
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 11:15 pm: |
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LL- I don't fully agree with religious exemptions either, primarily because they are so ripe for abuses. But it's not a local issue, it's a Constitutionally-backed right that has consistently been upheld through decades of challenges. Translation: it ain't goin' nowhere.
And variances are not exclusively given based solely on hardship, nor should they be. Does every exception require hardship or can someone in this town ask for a variance simply to increase their enjoyment of their home? That's why there is a planning board; to make sensible exceptions to general rules. I don't purport for a moment that they always get it right- I was rejected on a fence request that none of my neighbors opposed and which involved my children's safety, and other similar requests were granted before and after mine (one to a BOT member who was sitting at that time).
Finally, athletic facilities are not just something "nice" to a university; they are a necessary and universal aspect of student life that schools must upgrade occassionally to stay current and competitive. And this request is very reasonable. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11683
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 7:36 am: |
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Sure people buy houses next to parks, colleges, etc. They probably pay less than a similar house a few blocks away. However, it is one thing to have a ball field next door and another to have 90 foot tall banks of lights put in after the fact.
The logic is faulty. The same logic could be used to justify the house next door on Mayhew Drive being turned into a boarding house. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 4141
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 8:11 am: |
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Quote:house next door on Mayhew Drive being turned into a boarding house
Gasp!  |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1599
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 9:53 am: |
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Bob K.- When the Village takes down its 90 foot lights, come talk to us about faulty logic. Don't you think some people on Vose Ave. or Third St. or Valley St. wish they were gone? But upgrades are going to happen, and to exclude Seton Hall while adding lights elsewhere pretty much defines hypocrisy. |
mjh
Supporter
Username: Mjh
Post Number: 567
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 10:20 am: |
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Brett and all;
There are often ways to arrange the lighting so as to take into account the neighbors and the value of their property. Seton Hall is located within a residential community. Community members have to accomodate their neighbors, and that goes both ways. Community members don't have to make all the sacrifices to accomodate the university, and vice versa.
You're right, we chose to buy a house near Underhill Field, and we live with some of the consequences. But when they get out of hand (e.g. over-the-limit noise, unsafe parking situations, and powerful lights shining into the backyard) we complain. Generally, complaints from the neighborhood get answered if we are persistent. The village (actually, the SO-M school district) did re-adjust the lights on Underhill Field because at least one of the lights shonedirectly into the back yard of one of my neighbors. The Underhill Field lighting is on 24-7.
Talk-it-up has every right to be concerned, but asking that Seton Hall not be allowed to have these lights at all is unlikely to get anywhere. But having a group of neighbors work with Seton Hall to help ensure that they make every effort to accomodate the neighborhood is very reasonable, IMHO. If there is a neighborhood association, they should get to work right away, before the lights are installed. Asking them to re-adjust after will be much more difficult.
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Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1602
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 10:25 am: |
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MJH- Unassailable logic- great post. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11687
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 10:30 am: |
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Brett, the lights at the corner of Meadowlands were installed to aid Seton Hall's softball program. The field was upgraded, including dugouts, for, primarily, the use of the Seton Hall team. I also believe that the vote authorizing the lights was taken many years ago and that their arrival was somewhat of a shock to many, including Dave.
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Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1603
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 10:35 am: |
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So, when are they coming down, Bob? |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11688
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 10:38 am: |
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Probably after the next elections. 
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Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1604
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 10:49 am: |
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Good one!
They can stack them right next to the Gazebo... |
joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 543
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 11:03 am: |
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Equal tax responsibility for being a recipient of equal town services.
So, all the false fire alarms, culminating in the horrific deaths and maimings on campus, and the suit which includes(d?) the town as defendant, and all the late night noise at local residence and frat houses, and all the police costs, and the cost of upkeep of local government, and they pay no taxes.
They could waive their tax exemption, but that would take an act of courage.
So, the law sets them apart, and that is not equal.
jd |
Cali6buff
Citizen
Username: Cali6buff
Post Number: 28
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 12:11 pm: |
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Because the only thing one can contribute, money or otherwise, is through property taxes?
There are towns all over the country that are able to exist solely because of the influx of money a major university brings.
The 10,000 students, hundreds and hundreds of staff, faculty and there families and everyone that comes to the university for the events it holds, contribute as much to the town financially as the residents.
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FlyingSpaghettiMonst
Citizen
Username: Noodlyappendage
Post Number: 163
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 12:16 pm: |
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Cali, how do they contribute?
We have no hotel for families to stay in, the students don't patronize the downtown stores and they run up enormous costs for our fire,police and ambulances. The university pays a minimal in lieu of and then expect us to jump whenever they need something.
And we get in return?????????? |
Grspring
Citizen
Username: Grspring
Post Number: 96
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 1:03 pm: |
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What the Planning Board did was approve everything the university asked for, including what they did not need.
There were no objections to the building improvements, which moved the student center closer to the street, outside eating area, bleachers, or the upgrade of the field to an artificial surface.
The objection from the community was the lighting towers which the university admitted they did not need because there is no requirement that they play night games.
Score: university=everything, neighborhood=nothing |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1033
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 1:20 pm: |
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Seton Hall is not a part of this community at all.
The people don't live here. They don't care about the local schools. They don't care about the cost of housing. They don't care about tax rates. All they want to do is sit behind a big iron fence and put the squeeze on the town that they have so comfortably under their thumb. |
Politicalmon
Citizen
Username: Politicalmon
Post Number: 162
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 5:19 pm: |
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To All;
Seton Hall contribute very little to the community – as the largest owner of real estate they suck up more tax revenue with their non-tax status then would be generated with the (possible) vibrant village downtown of our future. They use all our facilities I’ve seen their vans dumping material at the recycling center even though they have commercial plates which is against current law. They suck up over 50% of our fire department resources just think what that will cost the overtaxed taxpayers in pension and benefits over the next few decades. As those costs balloon (as they are doing now) it would be less severe if the fire department staff was half the number it is today – but with Seton Hall draining our blood that will never happen. I’m personally aware of 2 buildings they have flipped with 100% plus profit in the last 5 years – let alone more lost taxes for our town. The students rarely use the business downtown, I drive up SO Ave every day and the number of students is quite small for this so called college town. Why would they come downtown when they have everything they need on campus? And let it be known that during the FBI raid of the campus dining hall a couple years ago they were looking at the campus dining contracts – why because our County Exec Joe D the same guy our local paper photo ops every week had a no show $60K job paid for by Seton Hall (reported in the Star Ledger). They are part of our problem and the sooner we get BOT members who will put the taxpayers of our community 1st then and only then will Seton Hall be defanged. The school that brought you 3 convicted felons of white collar crime even had building named after them with the money these thieve stole from hard working people. I’m sure they did the right thing and gave the millions back….Oh sorry, I think they went out and used that money to recruit a top basketball coach – you see for every round they make it in the NCAA finals a college will earn $1M – but they can’t find it in their greedy little hearts to subsidize the services they consume. Please don’t get me started…. |
Mary32
Citizen
Username: Mary32
Post Number: 28
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 5:39 pm: |
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Joel Dranove's post:
When SH pays full taxes, at appraised full market value, then and only then could it be considered as much a part of this community as the rest of us.
jd
What a duplicitous statement from a man who boasts, together with his other cohorts, that their petition against Tau has been signed by over 100 SHU students, and that's okay because they are "as much of this community as the rest of us."
So which is it Mr. Dranove? Would you consider Seton Hall "as much a part of this community as the rest of us" only when they pay full taxes, therefore the 100 students' signatures on your petition are null, or would you only temporarily consider SHU as part of our community because you need their signatures to serve your political agenda?
What a duplicitous politician! Wait till Sheena reads this. She put so much effort to collect the students' signatures and now this from her "ally".
Shame Mr. Dranove, Shame!
(I am sorry I drift, but I couldn't resist it).
Mary |
joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 548
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 6:10 pm: |
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I boast of what?
Where?
Cohorts?
Calm down before you bust a gut.
then re-read my remark, which refers to the university, qua university.
SHU is a business in town.
The students pay tuition to SHU.
SHU budgets a token for the town.
We, including you, Mary 32 (last name, please), pay taxes.
I am smarting from your outburst, so, I am going outside, to warm up.
Bye.
jd |
something witty
Citizen
Username: Buckneja
Post Number: 243
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 10:25 am: |
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Well, now, I can't resist commenting on Glock 17.
Congratulations on getting me out of my haitus.
Your flippant remark and assertions are inaccurate.
Seems you think of "SHU" as a body that lives in its own world. Perhaps your beef is with the Newark Archdiocese? You try to cover everyone in one broad brushstroke, but it doesn't fit. The people who comprise the SHU community (even some students *gasp*) are just as concerned about our two towns.
The President lives in SO, yes, but off campus in a humble home. Even more to the point is the fact many "plainclothes" persons--administrators and others (faculty, staff, families of students)-- live here too. And I mean more than 5 people. More than 50 homes I would imagine. In fact, some of the more prolific posters on MOL are SHU community members, many many of whom live in SO-M. Many have children in our public schools and attend many of the same meetings in town (Safety, BOT, and other meetings in SO-M), and are just as frustrated as you.
For me, you could probably add to that frustration the being IRKED by the perception you expressed. I don't see it as an "us" and "them" thing the way others do, perhaps because I have different definitions of those categories. Of course part of that is because I'm in the "other" category according to the stereotype or bias we're referring to. Yeah, I work there, and you know, I LOVE MY COMMUTE!! But I, too, live in our community. I hate the taxes and level of service I receive, am dissatisfied with the water quality, am horrified by the crime and safety issues, am annoyed about the TAU thing, and am frustrated by aspects of the educational system in which Little Witty participates... But we CHOSE to live here and to engage in our community, as do other SHU-ers. And so we are active in our towns and in our neighborhood. I certainly didn't select my career based on a love of money. It was the community-at-large that attracted us. And I believe the same is true of many of my colleagues.
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MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 4151
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 10:31 am: |
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I guess the moral of the story is that Seton Hall is not "monolithic".
(I have no idea what that really means, but Dr. Rosen keep saying it at BOT Meetings in reference to the BOT) |
something witty
Citizen
Username: Buckneja
Post Number: 244
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 10:34 am: |
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Yes, I guess so... |
Lucy
Supporter
Username: Lucy
Post Number: 3945
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 10:43 am: |
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Something Witty thanks for your voice of reason. |
something witty
Citizen
Username: Buckneja
Post Number: 245
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 10:54 am: |
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It's a voice... not sure these days about "reason" 
Thanks Lucy! |
Cali6buff
Citizen
Username: Cali6buff
Post Number: 29
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 11:03 am: |
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A superb post.
Thank you Something Witty. |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1612
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 2:58 pm: |
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So your screen name is more than just a catchy phrase- great post, SW! |
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