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SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 386
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 8:25 am: | 
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I read recently that the Maplewood police chief is retiring and that their fire chief is leaving for another job.
Couldn't Maplewood approach SO BOT, police and fire department heads to ask if they could manage both departments? Even if they did it temporarily until the departments could formally merge, both towns would save money. Couldn't each town pass ordinances to allow this on a transitional or experimental basis?
Anyone know about this? |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 1623
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 4:42 pm: |
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A Maplewood Police Captain is retiring, and the Maplewood Fire Chief is leaving in August, which would give plenty of time to replace him.
It must be true- I read it in the News-Record. |
Old and Gray
Citizen
Username: Pastmyprime
Post Number: 381
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 6, 2006 - 11:42 am: |
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Different agencies, different cultures, different personalities, different contracts, different Town Councils, different hiring practices.
NEVER GONNA HAPPEN IN NJ TO LARGER POLICE DEPARTMENTS.
The fire departments possibly, that worked in "North Hudson" region with the small FD's, I heard ours is currently the smallest paid FD in the state?
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SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 393
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 6, 2006 - 6:07 pm: |
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When did it happen in North Hudson, O&G, how long ago? Do you know much about how they actually pulled it off?
Are you also saying that either SO or Mplwd's PO is large? I wouldn't think so given our populations.....? Please elaborate/clarify.
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Old and Gray
Citizen
Username: Pastmyprime
Post Number: 382
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 6, 2006 - 8:48 pm: |
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I think SO has about 50 + cops and Maplewood has over 60+...compared to the NYPD thats nothing, but in NJ most towns that are 2 square miles have about 30 cops(IF EVEN THAT MANY).
I think SO only has about 30 Firemen...Maplewood FD I am unsure about.
North Hudson was created in 1999 from 5 Fire Departments. It includes Union City, Weehawken, North Bergen, & West New York...All very small(but populated) urban communities in Hudson County.
Here is an article about some of the situation going on there:
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10619614&BRD=1291&PAG=461&dept_id=5235 91&rfi=6
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mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2803
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 7, 2006 - 10:21 am: |
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S. Orange has 56 police officers (plus the police chief).
The fire dept has 36 plus the chief.
The biggest obstacle is dealing with union issues for a merger. Based on reports I have seen (for S. ORange/maplewood and for other towns) the big savings for merging the fire department is on equipment. The savings for the police department was minimal at best, BUT there are other reasons to consider merging departments (or a total consolidation of the towns for that matter).
There is a cost to doing the study of merging departments. Currently we are looking at the Board of Health and the Recreation departments. There is going to be a public meeting on June 19th with both towns and the consultants in attendance (at S. Orange village hall).
Most of the cost to do the reports comes from matching grants. I am not sure which departments we will look at next. In order for there to be a merger of departments, there either has to be a savings for both towns OR an improvement in services. Sometimes, what appears to be a no-brainer for one town makes no sense for the other town. And in some cases, we will look to invite a third town to the table if that makes sense.
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Lucy
Supporter
Username: Lucy
Post Number: 4021
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 7, 2006 - 10:32 am: |
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Mr. Rosner what time on June 19th? |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2804
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 7, 2006 - 10:38 am: |
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The meeting starts at 7:30pm but the village calendar says it is at the Columbia HS auditorium. I will have to confirm the location. I am pretty sure it has been changed to our village hall.
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jeep
Citizen
Username: Jeep
Post Number: 168
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 7, 2006 - 10:39 am: |
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Mr. Rosner would there be any savings by having the fire department operate their shifts similar to the police. The police work a 8 hour shift and the fire department works a 24 hour shift. So when a firefighter shows up to work they sleep a portion of their shift. Would it not be more productive to put them on a 8 hour shift and always be awake? The police operate a department 24 hours a day. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2805
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 7, 2006 - 11:42 am: |
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Lucy: The meeting is going to be at CHS in the auditorium. Just to be sure though I do suggest checking the village calendar that week.
Jeep: I have heard the arguments for both sides. When it is averaged out, the firefighters actually are on duty for more hours per week than a police officer. There is not only the question of money, but which is the most efficient and provides the best coverage.
Most municipalities have gone the 24/72 route (although I think Maplewood has not) and obviously this would be one of those union issues to be dealt with. In the end, my guess is that a merger of the fire department would save both towns money without compromising safety.
The police officers work longer shifts than 8 hours (I forget the exact number of hours per day).
This forum is probably not the best place to have this discussion (and since there are probably some legal issues involving union negotiations, I will not post anymore on the subject of merging the fire or police). |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 1602
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 7, 2006 - 11:43 am: |
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I think that police patrol, while firefighters maintain equipment and wait for calls. I think that is why the shifts are the way they are. |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 400
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 7, 2006 - 5:21 pm: |
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Interesting article, O&G. Thanks for posting the link.
When large corporations merge, there are specialists who track compensation and perks for employees, to figure the best standards for the new culture of merging companies.
Given what O&G's article said, the interests of fire fighters, and any towns considering regionalizing services, it seems they all would benefit from an ombudsman (or two or more) with authority to prevent as many disputes as possible and resolve them when they can't be prevented. The unions and towns should ask the State to hire independent consultants to act as ombudsmen for potential and actual mergers of services throughout the state and ask the State to pass legislation that would provide them with the authority they need to be effective. This could benefit a possible merger of SO and Mplwd's fire departments, among many others throughout the State.
About the cost of studies prior to a municipal services merger, it would be justified if it improved the quality of the merged department and services it could provide, including preventing a deterioration of extant standards. Not suprisingly, whether pre-merger studies would be worthwhile would rest largely on the ability of the group or persons producing the study. Get the best you can to be most cost-effective. |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 401
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 7, 2006 - 5:47 pm: |
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Trustee Rosner, aside from the Fire and PDs of SO & Mplwd, what about merging, or semi-merging (something like having 1.25-1.5 positions instead of 2)the towns' legal counsels? If they then worked towards rotating more than one part-time person into the merged position, the towns might get certain legal specialists they need, rotating as needed. (Some time could be allocated for real estate law, other for muni-bonds, other for town-legislature liaison, etc.) |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2807
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 8, 2006 - 10:07 am: |
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SOrising: I am hoping the shared services committee (I am on it) will consider everything including sharing an attorney where there is not a conflict to do so. There are other positions where I think it might work better, but probably best not to post those until we study the pros and cons.
When we reached out for a consultant, we did go to the state for help. Basically all they do is provide grant money and some names. It would be great if the state had someone full time who really dealt with the issues in a meaningful way instead of a cookie cutter approach. We already share a school system and receive no benefit (money ) from the state for doing that. However, going forward if two towns decide to merge school districts the state is prepared to throw hundreds of thousands to those towns.
There is no question towns have to merge, but the state needs to show some real leadership and the unions need to be more understanding of what is at stake. If So. Orange and Maplewood are to ever merge (the whole town or departments) a level of cooperation is needed between the governing bodies, the unions, the employees and the residents. |
Pizzaz
Supporter
Username: Pizzaz
Post Number: 3728
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 8, 2006 - 10:15 am: |
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That is a worthy and righteous cause to pursue. Let's get on with it already. SORising brings up an opportunity with police and fire positions - let's not study anymore, lets do it! |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 403
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, June 8, 2006 - 12:25 pm: |
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Trustee Rosner, I'd assumed the State was not sufficiently supporting municipal mergers it likes to promote. In light of this fact, I am suggesting that unions, SO, Mplwd, other towns, even the League of Municipalitie s, lobby the legislature and governor for "merger ombudsmen", or whatever they might be called, to help towns that actually are dealing with the specifics of how to do it, as the case O&G mentioned, detailed. I would think Corzine could be convinced, if he thought that cost-savings (that would impact property taxes)were possible down the line. If funding a relatively small amount for merger/aggregation ombudsmen helped save millions or more in taxes, Corzine might be convinced that funding the ombudsmen positions would be a catalyst for much bigger savings later. He seems to be staking his reputation on his ability to reduce property taxes significantly and might be convinced he should catalyze the fulfillment of that promise. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2808
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 8, 2006 - 12:54 pm: |
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SOrising: I agree with most of what you posted.
The belief is that a merger of the two towns would potentially save as much as 10% of the municipal portion of the tax bill. That would not happen overnight, but over a number of years ( 5 - 10). Using today's dollars this would mean a potential savings of $300 to the average homeowner per year.
A large problem with our tax structure continues to be the county portion. The village (and most towns) gets virtually nothing from the county in the way of services, yet about $2,400 per year per homeowner goes to the county. Basically we are supporting the county courts and prisons. If the state was to do away with the county system and tax residents across the state equally to take over the courts and the prisons, we would see an even larger reduction.
Of course, property tax reform dealing with school funding is the real answer (to lower property taxes), but it is unlikely that any governor will deal with that task (despite the fact an overwhelming majority of residents are in favor of a change to the system).
The system in NJ is broke - at every level (of government) - and we are using a band-aid approach to deal with the problems. The state blames the towns, the towns blame the county, the county blames the state and so on. We all pay enough taxes, but the distribution is screwy and we have a system where some towns are much better off because a hundred years ago they had all this farmland which became malls and large commercial developments (and now large residential developments are in vogue) vs the small commuter towns like Maplewood and S. Orange.
One thing we can't do is sell out to large developers with the only goal being lower property taxes. We all need to make this an issue at the state and county level instead of letting the Governor say that consolidation of services is the answer. It is just delaying the problem so the next Governor can deal with it.
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SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 406
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, June 8, 2006 - 7:18 pm: |
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Thanks for the information, TR. I would be interested in reading regular updates about merger issues and other related ones you've just mentioned. Posting them here would be great, if you could. Maybe there could be a separate division on MOL for merger discussion. I've wondered about the county problems before. Jails alone take up a huge portion of the public treasury, when cost-effective and reform-effective incarceration alternatives are available. But there is a huge jail-union-construction-industrial complex fighting simple, less expensive and targetted reforms. ONe example is mandatory treatment rather than non-medically-based incarceration for drug addicts. Non-violent offenders need to be segregated from violent ones. Otherwise, they get out of jail being more violent than when they went in. County-run courts instead of state-run ones sound incredibly antiquated. Is there a State commission for court reform in NJ?
Would the new mayor of Newark support any of these initiatives with SO and other towns in Essex? I'd guess he would. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2810
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 9, 2006 - 10:15 am: |
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SOrising: The county executive certainly supports the states running the courts. The county system is antiquated plus depending on the crime, the punishments vary from county to county. As far as I know there is not a State commission for court reform and if it does exist it is probably not funded thereby pretty much useless.
I have invited the new mayor of Newark to come to a BOT meeting. So far he has not responded.
Maybe after the meeting on the 19th, we should start a new thread on some of the issues regarding shared services and/or merging the towns. |
SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 408
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 9, 2006 - 2:20 pm: |
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Well, Newark's new mayor will probably be pretty busy for a while. Try later, after he's had time to get oriented. |
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