| Author | Message | ||
     talk-it-up Citizen Username: Talkitup Post Number: 236 Registered: 3-2004 |
Come one and all it is the beginning of the movement. I think we have all had enough. Lots of new people showing their faces at Village Hall and lots of old ones coming back out. THE TRUSTEES were elected by us to represent us, not one piece of the pie! and MR GROSS is paid, we pay him. He is the administrator (etc, etc) and should be doing such. When you go to work and you are ineffective what happens? Now the list - 1) TAU - Lots of people have been putting in time (petitions, websites, etc) and I do not know where it will all end up. It looks like people object to removing the gazebo and replacing it with TAU all at GREAT COST. It looks there are also conflicts of interest (that I did not realize until I looked at the website). I do not understand how if you are a trustee or an employee that you can play both sides of the fence - vote and promote something you have a personal interest in???? Enough is enough - resign your job or post. THE RESIDENTS DO NOT WANT TO TAKE DOWN THE GAZEBO. If TAU is to be then it should be at no cost to the residents. Outside of 76 South Orange Avenue the village owners property - put a stake in the ground and mark the spot. TAU Foundation have fun, promote go raise the money - when you are done let us know and it can be installed in a great spot that suits TAU's scale. TAU does not belong by the train station and firehouse. DONE. Come on down and show your face, let them know what you want! 2) THE GUN-- enough said the minute it went on the hill Gross should have had the common sense (there I go with assumptions) to tell the employees (and we know who they are) to "Get that thing off the Hill!" after all the Trustees do not micromanage (unless of course it is TAU!) DONE. Come on down and show your face, let them know what you want! 3) DEVELOPMENT - (NOT COMING SOON) There is a book it think called "HOLES" is that it, and it is not about South Orange. DON'T YOU THINK THAT THE TRUSTEES AND MR GROSS AND MR MATTHEWS HAVE ENOUGH TO DO. Why are they concerned about art saving the town? The world is not coming to see Tau. BUT - our debts rise because we do not have the income we need from the proposed development that sits idle, holes in the ground. It bad enough that private property is not being developed, BUT they want to keep going onto Valley Street and THEY CAN'T FINISH WHAT THEY STARTED. SO come let them answer. Some demand answers. IT IS YOUR MONEY or lack of. We need to finish what was started, and it does not appear that Gross, or Matthews or the Board are making it happen. It's not there and you all sit and watch. SO, come on down and let them know. Make them answer, they should give a date. A REAL DATE . OK please help me with the list? | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4188 Registered: 5-2001  |
talk, Nice start, however, I prefer to not let them know all issues in advance of the meeting so they can't script a canned response.  Now - are you all "talk" or will YOU be there? | ||
| talk-it-up Citizen Username: Talkitup Post Number: 237 Registered: 3-2004 |
OK then let's just see how many will show? Are there any takers? We all know the issues. I admire some of the new faces. Has Jerry Andrews been around before???? | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro  Post Number: 3357 Registered: 5-2004  |
MHD, I would take that as a "No." | ||
| talk-it-up Citizen Username: Talkitup Post Number: 238 Registered: 3-2004 |
Going down is a yes. But what I want to see are new faces. People are watching at home. I want them off the couch. People are always saying, "They work all day." "They don't really know what's happening. What are the issues?" It is suprising even on Tao and the Gun how many people do not know anything about them. Half the people do not even know the gazebo is being removed. When they are told they really do not understand. The information is spreading but throughout this Village there are the small special interest groups - tight groups that organize, they may only represent a small group but they show up unified or they are on both sides of the fence and therefore they are actually their own advocate. Then there are all those people, so many who watch. They do watch. They think that the one person standing there, such as an Andrews is saying what's on 'their' mind. But - it is the arrival of all those people at Village Hall that makes a difference. They sit and think it doesn't make a difference because they don't join in. We have waited years, YEARS and the in-breeding has made this town ineffective. It IS time. Time for a change a GREAT BIG CHANGE. I say 'yes' all down to Village Hall. Are you coming? | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4190 Registered: 5-2001 |
Talk - will you be the guy at the dais holding the gavel?  | ||
| talk-it-up Citizen Username: Talkitup Post Number: 239 Registered: 3-2004 |
Uh? | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4192 Registered: 5-2001 |
sorry...bad joke. | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 686 Registered: 6-2005 |
The only people who showed up at the podium tonight were the pro-Tauites. NOBODY from the other point of view came to be heard, and nobody to raise any of the other pressing issues facing this town (other than a woman discussing a particular street problem.) We get the government we deserve! | ||
| campbell29 Citizen Username: Campbell29 Post Number: 476 Registered: 4-2002 |
To a certain extent that is true. Indeed, while there are plenty of voices of dissent in MOL, there doesn't seem to be either corresponding dissent in either the people who show up at town meetings or actually vote at elections. Since living here, I have voted for the Brian O'Leary slate, as well as the opposing slate last election. Almost all of these candidates were handily defeated. That makes me thing that the people who ACTUALLY vote in SO are perfectly happy with the status quo, and have no problems with the current slate of trustees continuing to botch downtown redevelopment and purchase useless works of art. Unfortunately for those of us who disagree, this is a rough lesson in democracy in action. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4205 Registered: 5-2001 |
jayjay, There were numerous other people in the audience besides the Tauites tonight, but people chose to let the BOT trip all over themselves tonight instead of confronting them directly. Watching the last minute attempted "switch" over the Parking Authority appointment was incredible. | ||
| vermontgolfer Supporter Username: Vermontgolfer Post Number: 459 Registered: 12-2002 |
MHD, As we witnessed, the Parking Authority escapade continues to must watch TV for our BOT meeting. I was there until a few minutes ago, but frankly had had enough and left. As I've said before, I understand these folks give of their time to make this commitment, but PLEASE stop embarrasing yourselves. If I understood correctly, the gentlemen who was to be appointed to the Parking Authority seems to have all the necessary experience, but I guess some folks were concerned about what side he may have been on. Oops, forgot this isn't a political appointment, according to Trustee Jennings.  | ||
| talk-it-up Citizen Username: Talkitup Post Number: 240 Registered: 3-2004 |
I think this week turned out to be rest time for some of us. I would love to see some of the people I talk with come down and speak, but I think, and maybe it is true, what good will it do? This week I was very disappointed in the whole Village. People do go down, unfortunately it's always the same ones. I personally am a little tired. I resent having the situation make be feel angry. I watched and almost ran down. I saw a small group of women speak about Tony Smith. Somehow they have the ear of the trustees. I don't get it. I read the Tau Thread and was amazed how full of conflicts all the relationships appeared. Do you think if we went down with fifty people against taking down the gazebo that it would matter? They do not have the nerve to stop it. It IS wrong but they continue. That and many other things. I think the other post was right. I think this evening it was better to watch them fall all over themselves. Must think of something else..... | ||
| Soparents Citizen Username: Soparents Post Number: 967 Registered: 5-2005  |
I was there... It was a shambles. I was fully prepared to stand up there again and speak, but it became obvious that whatever I had to ask them was NOTHING compared to the damage they were doing among themselves, so I chose instead to remain seated and watch the show... . | ||
| phd6786 Citizen Username: Phd6786 Post Number: 31 Registered: 3-2006  |
Talk-it-up, After your urging all of us here to come down to Village Hall last night, I thought this was going to be some show, so I went. What a let down that was! I expected to see there all the luminaries of this South Orange topic who are so vocal in these threads, like Joel Dranove, SOrising, Jayjay, JTA, and the like. None was there. Nobody got up to speak on all the problems that you listed above, even those who say were there, like Vermontgolfer, MHD, and SOparent. Even Michael Goldberg and Dan Goldberg who were there, and whom I heard at other times speak so eloquently, didn’t get up to speak. To top it all of, you of all people, who pushed everyone to be there, you say “I watched and almost ran down.” You mean you weren’t there? What a bull…! What happened? Are we here on MOL only to complain? I ask because I am new on this board and I want to understand the motivations of the different posters. Then, this morning after last night’s fiasco you post: “I would love to see some of the people I talk with come down and speak, but I think, and maybe it is true, what good will it do?” That’s what the fox said about the grapes he couldn't reach: “why bother, they may be sour anyway.” What a cop-out! MHD, SOparent and Vermontgolfer you say that you didn’t have to get up and speak because they (the trustees) were doing enough damage to themselves without our help. Is that what your purpose of being there was? To do damage to the trustees? I thought your purpose for being there was to discuss the problems that talk-it-up listed in this thread, and demand some answers. I am trying hard to understand what makes these South Orange threads tick. I slowly find out that the posters here are people who like to complain a lot sitting on their arses, but do very little off their arses to fix what they complain about. Oh well! We do get the government we deserve. | ||
| gertie Citizen Username: Gertie Post Number: 1 Registered: 6-2006 |
Are you Spot, the dog with a PhD? | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5363 Registered: 1-2004  |
PHD- I had every intent of going as Elaine can tell you. (I told her I was going when I ran into her at Bunny's Friday night). But then my friend ran into an emergency and needed me to watch her child for her. MHD can confirm I was watching, because he saw me with said child. I plan to go the next meeting in two weeks. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4215 Registered: 5-2001 |
phd, If you were there, why didn't you speak up yourself? You say "I thought this was going to be some show". Did you go solely for entertainment or to learn about what is happening in town? For example, the Tauettes simply showed up for their single issue & then left. They continually talk about the sculpture bringing "prestige", but not one of them expressed concern about the LACK OF PRESTIGE our leaking Library or bombed-out Shop Rite bring to town. All the people you mention have spoken at other meetings. However, the BOT tends to tune out people who speak every week and it is only fair to give others a chance to speak, even if you disagree with their position. | ||
| jeep Citizen Username: Jeep Post Number: 178 Registered: 8-2005 |
Hey MHD when are you turning in the petition against the TAO taxes? I cant wait to hear the VP reaction how many signatures do you have??? | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 703 Registered: 4-2005  |
I agree MHD - it's time to turn the petition in as I hope there was no intention of just letting it sit. I made almost every meeting during the Spring - sorry but I'm getting adjusted with my Masters Program and work but I'll be back at the next meeting. I did use the "call-in" function and asked some questions about this apparent surplus that Dr. Rosen was claiming we apparently had seeing as though all expenses "are taken care of"... but it came in too late and never got played. See you all (or whoever) is there next time | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4217 Registered: 5-2001 |
Sheena/Jeep, I have no intention of "turning in" the petitions and letting the BOT co-opt their names for political purposes. However, when the numbers are significant enough I will keep the BOT updated on the progress and will gladly show the Village Clerk the validity of them. For now, I will simply say that the number of hardcopy signatures far outnumbers the number of "online" signatures and both continue to grow. | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 706 Registered: 4-2005 |
MHD - I'm lost. If you're using the TAU issue as an impetus for political change in the next election and stirring a base... just say it. Bravo. But don't be on the forefront of being the defender of taxes against TAU if that's not really the issue. The purpose of creating a petition is to submit it. If students ever brought a petition to me and said that hundreds of other students signed it but wouldn't let me see it... I probably would have brushed it off as well. And also, I know that there's an email list for people who signed it - please shoot off an email and let people know that there's no intention for you to submit it to the BOT. It's disingenuous to not do just that. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4221 Registered: 5-2001 |
Sheena, You misunderstand. I will SHOW them the petitions, but I will not GIVE them the petitions. If there is any question of validity, I will gladly work with the Village Clerk on that. | ||
| Soparents Citizen Username: Soparents Post Number: 972 Registered: 5-2005 |
My phrasing was bad...I should have thought about how it would have been construed before I hit post.... I had had an incredibly hard day with the kiddie end of school year things and other stuff all day yesterday - I walked into the house at about 6.30, got the kids settled, my hubby gave me a couple of Advil and a coffee for a conking headache I had and I said I would sit down for 5 minutes..... he woke me up at 7.50 asking if I was going to the BOT meeting.... I could so well have done just to shut my eyes again and let the headache go, but I chose to go to the meeting. There was something I wanted to ask and not hearing things 100% last night as the microhones seemed muted, and being in brain funk with the advil not kicking in, I didn't realise that I had missed the public bit, I thought the TS group was an allowed segment and that the public could speak later as it seemed early for the pubic section. THAT was why I was still there.... but I still tried to listen and watch everything going on. I was cringing in my seat over the Parking authority issue - I cannot image how I would feel if I had had my name read out for a position only to have it taken away from me some 30 mins later. I am no MHD or Howard Levinson, they have facts, figures, dates, names etc, the question I wanted to ask was a general one, but please, don't for one minute think that I enjoy being there. I have many things that could take up my time, but as I have said before, I believe it is important to be there, and when necessary, important to speak up. So, as for watching the show, that a very bad choice of words on my part,but I came away more dismayed than ever. Next time, I will be there and I will make SURE to hear when the public speaking can start. Yours, getting older, cranky, still with a headache, and in good faith, SOP | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 707 Registered: 4-2005 |
What's the timeline to show them? As more time elapses the deeper the financial burden. If the consensus is that people would rather lose out on x amount of dollars (I actually am pretty confident it far exceeds 100k and at this point, almost breaks even) then the time is now. When are you meeting with Ms. Smith to certify the petition, etc.? Also - they will need to read all the comments that people posted as well seeing as though those were the sentiments of the community directed at the BOT. So if you opt to use time at the podium merely to show and not give, you will need to notify them in advance. I think it's great to work with the Village Clerk as she has always been very helpful but inevitably it was the decision of the BOT and if the residents are upset, used your petition to express themselves, that message needs to go on to the BOT asap. Can you keep us posted on this information? | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4222 Registered: 5-2001 |
Sheena, The entire Board of Trustees were sent an email 3 weeks ago containing a significant number of the online comments. I received no response from anyone other than Mark. Do you honestly think handing any number of petition signatures to the current BOT will have any impact on their decision to move forward? Perhaps not until I have more signatures than the number of votes they each received will they sit up and pay attention. | ||
| jeep Citizen Username: Jeep Post Number: 180 Registered: 8-2005 |
MHD please be upfront. You must turn the petition in. I signed it assuming this would be the end result. I hope you are not using this for some future political vehicle. | ||
| jeep Citizen Username: Jeep Post Number: 181 Registered: 8-2005 |
How many signatures do you have? | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4225 Registered: 5-2001 |
jeep, Send me a privateline with your name & I will gladly provide your information to the Board of Trustees. Many other people have explicitly asked that the petitions not be released. (For example, because they work for Roy Scott or are married to one of the Trustees!) Back to the thread - the video from last night's meeting is now online: http://www.southorange.org/videoViewer.asp | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 577 Registered: 1-2006 |
Ahh, phd: I actually am engaged on trial, in Brooklyn, and must focus on my client's rights until completion. Do you have a name you will share with us? I did watch some of the name calling dysfunction about an email, or resume, or two emails or resumes, or some such adolescent bickering. Poor Marge. jd | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 1608 Registered: 3-2002 |
Two thoughts, No, I wasn't there...I was far away on business. I may not make meetings, but I do care, and participate in as many ways as I am currently able. I hope that the fact that I'm here online at least provides moral support and debate partners for those of you who do a better job of showing up than I do. Sometimes I feel like some of you are trying to drive anyone who can't free up their evenings off this board. I hope not. I like to think that the most vocal among us actually like knowing that others of us are listening (and might even show up in person someday, when in town, spouse home, etc.) MHD -- I'm afraid that I have to agree that petitions are meant to be turned in. I have the presumption that any petition that I sign will be turned it - that is what petitions are! It is a disservice to many of us who signed to undermine the strength of the petition by failing to turn it in. If someone is not safe signing a petition, then they should find a quieter way to protest. I didn't sign just to be on the mailing list for future political fundraising (although that is OK in my case too...) | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 415 Registered: 2-2006 |
Sheena (and others), clearly, the present BOT will not be persuaded by anyone, or any number of people, to reverse their extremely poor decisions about TAU. They want to bury their decisions by fleeing from them, aka, "moving on" even if it is to a worse place than they are at now. I think MHD's way of proceeding is fine, to certify the signatories with the village clerk who then will convey to the BOT that X number of SO residents have signed the petition. But understand, the BOT would have too much egg on their faces to reverse themselves now, so presenting the petition is a pro forma exercise, not one that will result in the BOT reconsidering or trying to amend clear mistakes. Think about it Sheena, if the BOT weren't determined to stick to their wrong-headedness about Tau, they would not give more weight to a few cheerleaders who make statements during remonstrances than they do to the (last I checked) 275+ people who have signed the online version of the petition, a list visible to each and every trustee, if only they were interested. The problem with the trustees is exactly that they represent the interests of the minority cheerleaders, not the majority of the electorate. They clearly are tying their political fates to them, not to the awakened majority. The only adequate response to this state of affairs is at the ballot box in the next municipal elections. I hope whoever reads this remembers it next spring. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5367 Registered: 1-2004 |
I thought one of the BOT's said something about bring them a petition with 200 signatures and then they'll discuss the situation. What happened to that? And the link to download the meeting doesn't work. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4230 Registered: 5-2001 |
Susan, I respect your opinion and your generally fair assessment of things here on MOL. Help me understand why you think that "turning in" the petitions will have any greater impact than SHOWING them the petitions. Call me cynical, but I don't think the BOT needs to review every name on the list and count voters or otherwise identify "opponents" of their plan. I will gladly allow the Village Clerk to certify the results, though. JTA - Eric said he wanted a petition with 2000 signatures (not 200) to consider a referendum. Considering that is more votes than any current BOT member received, I think attaining that number of signatures would most certainly be impossible for them to ignore. | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 708 Registered: 4-2005 |
MHD - If you want responsible government there needs to be responsible political activists in the community. Although you are the author of the petition, I don't think it gives you jurisdiction to decide whether or not this should be turned in. Community members willingly put their signatures on this petition under the impression that it would be given to the responsible party (the BOT) that has created this unfortunate situation. Petitions are created in the fashion for that reason. You could have created a "straw poll" in which only the numbers could be submitted but that carries a lot less weight. Think back to when SOAR collected sigantures in order the create the DRMC. I participated in that group as well as the march. At the end of the day, the BOT publicly announced that the petitions were never "turned in" which is similar to this case. If your intentions are geared towards the 2007 election, be mindful that when you address this issue, current members will say "No official petition was ever turned in, for all we know, the signatures could have been created/made up, etc." Despite the outcome, the responsible and honorable thing to do is turn the petitions in with copies for every single board member to take home. Then in 2007, you have the ability to say "you all have hard copies of names/addresses/etc. of the people who asked you to reconsider and yet you continued to move forward." If they feel inclined to respond to everyone on the petition, than so be it. If voters choose to listen to the excuses of certain board members than that is the political process and there's nothing you can do. However, I would estimate that the majority of people who signed the petition are aware of a lot more than just the statue and despite any effort of the BOT to sway them, it will be met with resistance. I respectfully request, as someone who signed the petition and advocated for many others to review it, that you turn in hard copies to all of the trustees. In the event that you still feel this request is unreasonable, then please remove my name from the list and I will also email the individuals that I sent the petition to (over 100 that exist on the petition) and notify them that hard copies are not being delivered to the individuals that the petition targets as being incompetent in their decisions. I don't mean that to sound like a threat of any sort but I feel what you're doing is not responsible to those who signed nor the trustees that the petition targets. MHD, I know you have good intentions and you want to do what's right. Don't fall just short of seeing this all the way through the way the process is designed. I ask you to consider and I will be right behind you at the next BOT meeting as your #1 cheerleader. | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 416 Registered: 2-2006 |
I don't understand what turning in the petition would accomplish, Sheena, that officially certifying the names on the petition would not. Would you explain it to me? Once the clerk has certified the names on the petition, no one can say, as you suggest, "the signatures could have been made up, etc." I am not sure of the other example you allude to, but didn't it concern absentee ballots, a different case than this? What MHD proposes is to use the petition to object to the BOT actions about TAU. That he wants to protect the individuals who signed it from being lobbied by opponents to the petition's purpose is a secondary point that does not diminish the political statement of the petition and certifying the signatories to it. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9883 Registered: 4-1997  |
Sheena, Pick a side. Calabrese & cronies will do nothing with the list. | ||
| talk-it-up Citizen Username: Talkitup Post Number: 242 Registered: 3-2004 |
What is the legal requirement for a referendum? I don't think saying what Devaris wants is the answer? Does anyone know what our legal rights are to stop the destruction of the gazebo area? Tau can be placed anywhere after the group raises the money. WHAT IS THE LEGAL REQUIREMENT FOR A REFERENDUM??? | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 709 Registered: 4-2005 |
I spoke with MHD tonight and we discussed some options. I'll let him post on whatever he chooses. Dave - I take the side of public art not being a priority for this community at this time. I'm not interested in what 'Calabrese & cronies' do or don't do. Us v. Them polarizes the community... I 'pick the side' of issues I believe in. SORising - I see what you're saying but it deals with accountability that is put on the current BOT and the process which I think needs to be followed. Like I said, me and MHD hashed out a couple different possible options and now it's on him. I know he needs to speak with some others who have been assisting. | ||
| Frederick Schmid Citizen Username: Carlfrederick Post Number: 51 Registered: 3-2006 |
I noticed that the number of posts for South Orange is running around 27842 and for Maplewood around 10743. Realizing that Maplewood has roughly twice as many residents, I find the ratio for posting strange and interesting. Certainly, it couldn't be that people in South Orange have more to say. |
