| Author |
Message |
    
Steve Hickson
Citizen
Username: Shickson
Post Number: 47
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 5, 2006 - 4:28 pm: | 
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peteglider,
We are totally on the same page.
I think SOPAC is great in theory, a great concept for the town---but the execution has a lot to be desired---specifically:
1. You can't even see it from South Orange Avenue
2. The aesthetic does not match anything in town (looks like it was dropped-in from outer space)
3. Where will people park?
4. Has a crack-house across the street (TBD Garden of Eden---whatever)
5. The Beifus lot would have been a perfect place for it---I assume there was no way for that to happen but think about it???---easy access from the train, plenty of room for parking, maybe integrate some retail, South Orange Avenue frontage---have some za at Bunny's then catch a movie---it could have been perfect---oh, well.
Here's my name suggestion: I think we want something that's up-market, kind of like Millburn---but something much more cool, hip, stylish and chill---eureka! that's it---CHILLBURN! |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 4363
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 5, 2006 - 4:37 pm: |
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Steve,
I much prefer Tau Town. (or would it be Tau Taun?)
I still don't understand the purpose of having SOPAC next to the Train Station. Do people really think hoards of people from NEW YORK CITY are going to come to the suburbs for culture or a movie? I would venture to guess that a large majority of people going to SOPAC will be driving from SO, Maplewood, West Orange, Irvington and Newark. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1377
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 5, 2006 - 4:37 pm: |
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South Central Orange.
 |
Steve Hickson
Citizen
Username: Shickson
Post Number: 48
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 5, 2006 - 4:46 pm: |
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MHD,
Tau Taun---I like it, I like it alot---and, you are right the appropriate spelling should be "Taun" not "Town"---your idea has legs, in fact a whole Tau Town theme could be created---I'm envisioning a "Foodtaun" moving into the crackhouse or perhaps a new "Taun Hall Deli" on South Orange Avenue, what about some new retail establishments like "Tops in Taun"---this is big!
Also, you are right about SOPAC train access---seems like a bit of a value-added extra but not much---from my personal experience having lived in Boston and Manhattan NOBODY, repeat NOBODY is heading out to the burbs to watch a flick via the train. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 4364
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 5, 2006 - 4:55 pm: |
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What if the movie playing at SOPAC was "The Tau-ering Inferno"? <groan> |
Stuart0628
Citizen
Username: Stuart0628
Post Number: 279
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 5, 2006 - 5:02 pm: |
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Anyone considering moving into this area will do enough homework to know what South Orange is and isn't.
Image matters, but you create a good image by maintaining a village that people will want to move to. Fortunately, South Orange offers something that West Orange and Livingston don't -- Midtown Direct. The (disproportionate) rise in home prices that started around 1996 and continued until this year, is owed almost entirely to the demand for houses in a nice suburb on a train line.
What's in a name? That which we call an orange
By any other word would smell as sweet. |
Josh Holtz
Citizen
Username: Jholtz
Post Number: 514
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 5, 2006 - 5:03 pm: |
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Gross Pointe? |
peteglider
Citizen
Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 2051
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 5, 2006 - 8:01 pm: |
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a couple of us at the fireworks could have sworn the images were of Tau -- subliminal messaging....
/p |
MittenReckitt
Citizen
Username: Mittenreckitt
Post Number: 67
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 5, 2006 - 8:12 pm: |
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Of course the issues that the town is facing should be addressed. Who said anything about ignoring them?
Why not do both - address the issues and change the name? |
red_alert
Citizen
Username: Red_alert
Post Number: 300
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 5, 2006 - 8:23 pm: |
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By the state of the village, isn't South Orange bringing East Orange and Orange down?
Another town name suggestions... New Beirut |
Bailey
Citizen
Username: Baileymac
Post Number: 338
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 5, 2006 - 8:31 pm: |
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Montrose, New Jersey has a nice ring to it.
Montrose and Maplewood- perfect together!
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red_alert
Citizen
Username: Red_alert
Post Number: 304
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 5, 2006 - 8:41 pm: |
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Other options:
Columbia (this will match the high school)
Oldstead? (Newstead isn't that new anymore)
2 Mile (Shorter version than the movie) |
MittenReckitt
Citizen
Username: Mittenreckitt
Post Number: 68
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 5, 2006 - 8:43 pm: |
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Montrose - fine choice!
Ok, on to the schools, taxes and downtown.... |
red_alert
Citizen
Username: Red_alert
Post Number: 305
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 5, 2006 - 8:50 pm: |
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Wasn't South Orange the town where Chevy Chase and Demi Moore broke down in "Nothing But Trouble".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_But_Trouble
 |
Jersey_Boy
Citizen
Username: Jersey_boy
Post Number: 1310
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 5, 2006 - 8:54 pm: |
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Montrose? I was going to suggest that. But, what will we call current Montrose? Old Montrose? Or Ye Olde Montrofe, to keep with the historic theme.
J.B. |
talk-it-up
Citizen
Username: Talkitup
Post Number: 249
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 5, 2006 - 11:15 pm: |
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I always thought The Township of SOUTH ORANGE VILLAGE is just right. We ARE the Village, but we are so busy in fighting rather than getting things done.
Why because the Multipurpose employee and our village attorney are ineffective. Development of very specific sites has not happened - why? Why hasn't the apartments on Vose and the Grocery be completed? Because our management is really, really bad. There are a multitude of reasons to get a new lawyer and dismiss the Administrator, etc, etc staff.
The Planning Board does not control development and make policy. The Village Trustees make policy. The administrator/etc, etc, etc is supposed to implement and be inovative. I find it hard to believe that for the salary we pay him in his multipurpose position and his administrative asst that we can't hire qualified separate people that actually provide checks and balances AND help each other along the way. I find it hard to believe that the village attorney has created contracts that ALLOW this situation to occur. South Orange Village controls the propertyy on VOSE. SO IS the developer. What happened?
Beifus is private. Sayid is private. The Planning Board is used by Bill and Art to accomplish their goals. You can find the little lambs as they are led to the accepted votes by some of the followers. Their are very few rebels on the Planning Board.
I think South Orange Village is find. You can trace your history.
Put your effort in the Administration. We need a member of the staff experienced in redevelopment AND we need to have qualified, experienced, successful staff. Out with the old and in with the new.
SOUTH ORANGE VILLAGE - let's keep it a Village. Small ideas for a small village. 16,000 is not many. Stop over development and FINISH what was started - NOW! |
Howard Levison
Citizen
Username: Levisonh
Post Number: 630
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 8:39 am: |
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Talk it up: Amen. We still do not understand a Vision for South Orange - yours seems to agree with mine - do not increase the density - keep it as a Village. But there is more to it than that and we must get others to participate in a dialogue. |
SOSully
Citizen
Username: Sullymw
Post Number: 1288
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 9:06 am: |
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To be honest, since I have moved from Maplewood to South Orange and have had to notify some people verbally, I have gotten that "what, are you crazy?" look a few times followed by, "is that the bad Orange"? On the other hand, when I used to tell people I lived in Maplewood their eyes would light up and they'd say something like "oh I heard that is such a charming town". It is somewhat disconcerting, however we love the area we live in...not sure we've warmed up to the town as a whole yet, but we're working on it. |
SO1969
Citizen
Username: Bklyn1969
Post Number: 355
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 9:28 am: |
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I agree with several posters, the South Orange name is fine - in fact, has a great history. We would not be talking about this if it were as self evident in the CBD that you're in a nice middle to upscale town as it is when you enter the village at its borders (think Wyoming Ave from W. Orange or even South Orange Avenue from Newark, there is a clear change).
The bones are there - train station, village hall, firehouse, older commercial buildings waiting to be fixed up - we just need to do what many posters are saying, finish what we've started and do the small things to make it more polished looking.
We need new people in charge. These folks don't get it. The efforts they do make too often do not reflect the right sensibility - take a look at Maplewood's approach to its parks, its Village and Springfield Avenue. The small scale stuff - the pavers, the plantings, the lighting and garbage cans - they seem to make things look good without breaking the bank. A number of improvements made in South Orange could be described similarly, but too many others could not. They're high priced, don't wear well or don't achieve the right sensibility. High on my list for consolidated services is Public Works. I want the Maplewood guy/gal who is in charge running our town's Public Works - at least the part that deals with parks and streetscaping.
We need new leaders. Calabrese dismisses Midtown direct as the cause for home appreciation and desirability and is clinging to a 12 to 15 year old notion (a pre-Midtown Direct notion) of creating an arts community to attract to people to a "flight community" that had once been desirable. He and his henchmen don't get that we don't need "attractions" to attract people. They're coming in droves. SOPAC is wrong on many fronts (location, design, lack of adequate public discussion on its biz plan and honesty about its cost to taxpayers), but the most disturbing to me is all the things we could have done with the $$$ instead of SOPAC - pretty much a whole wish list of projects (Village Hall, Library, new - upscale looking playground equipment (think Memorial Park in Maplewood), a good chunk of the river project) could probably have been funded with the same money. Instead, we'll be paying debt service and feeding the operation of SOPAC for 30 years and beyond.
SO is highly desirable. People are flocking here and it is not surprising when you consider the desirable attributes we have that so many other communities cannot easily replicate - a cosmopolitan community, Midtown Direct train service to NYC, beautiful natural setting, historic homes, good schools (could use some improvement, that's a different topic, but are good enough that middle class folks move here to put their kids in the schools), and proximity to a major airport.
What is surprising and disturbing and can only be attributable to a total failure of leadership and government is the state of our central village.
If you're not registered or haven't been voting in local elections, you need to act and you need your friends to act as well. We need leaders who get it. |
Politicalmon
Citizen
Username: Politicalmon
Post Number: 192
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 10:12 am: |
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I remember the push for South Mountain - when this failed the guys who created this idea decided to picked up and move to Glen Ridge. A name change is a great idea to coincide with a merging of the communities. Which would save us all tax dollars, let’s face it we were once 1 community - and the largest portion of our real estate tax is the shared school system so this makes sense.
I grew up in central NJ and when looking for a house 12 years ago I focused on Maplewood & South Orange. My father being older and wiser said and I'll quote 'Stay away from the Oranges, Maplewood is good'. In doing my own due diligence I found this odd given the common links between the communities. Didn't feel people had all the facts - their is an invisible wall the protects South Orange from the other Oranges, which has more in common with Maplewood and that is our extreme real estate tax burden. Combine that with the housing appreciation over the last decade and today you will need a substantial income to gain entry into either of these communities. If anything, due to this misconception it kept the housing prices lower in South Orange during the housing glut in 1994 back when you could get a Montrose historic home for under $300K - for the same price you would get a smallish Tudor west of Maplewood Avenue on half the land in Maplewood. After a long process we ended up in Montrose. And I've noticed a trend in Montrose, many newcomers over the last decade were people coming from Maplewood, getting top dollar for their homes and getting more bang for the buck in Montrose. Now that the prices of housing in Montrose have skyrocketed that trend has subsided.
Sheena - 'SHU pays PILOTS on both of these as well as ALL off-campus properties' - please elaborate - so they pay a pilot in lieu of paying for police and fire services they consume - do you think the pilot offsets the costs to the taxpayers of South Orange after you take into consideration medical benefits, pensions act...And what exactly does 'as well as ALL off-campus properties' mean? Does that mean they paid for the properties? I surely hope so? Does that mean they pay real estate taxes on these properties?
Library Lady - You can not compare our situation with Seton Hall & the Village with Princeton University and Princeton. Seton Hall is mostly a commuter school where the students rarely venture off campus and use the village business community. In Princeton, the students live there and you get a sense that they use the business community when you walk through the town. Secondly, since Seton Hall is a religious institution all their real estate investments (regardless if they have nothing to do with the college) are tax exempt - this is not that case with Princeton.
If Seton Hall could go out, and spend millions and recruit a top basketball coach - they should be paying for all services they use in our village in addition to being limited to owning real estate only necessary to the functions of the College.
Does anyone know whether the building being renovated on the corner of South Orange Avenue and Ward Place was purchased by Seton Hall? They also own the empty strip of buildings on South Orange Avenue between Warren Court and Turrel Avenue they were empty when we first arrived in South Orange - had been used by a questionable federally funded supplemental educational facility for a couple years and now are empty again.
More tax dollar the citizens of South Orange pay to help subsidize a mediocre college with visions of hoop dreams that had named 3 building on campus after convicted felons.
I say enough is enough - our current BOT members don't want to rock this boat....I wonder why?
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Shanabana
Citizen
Username: Shanabana
Post Number: 707
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 10:15 am: |
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IMHO, Sopac is a very nice design. Most COOL towns have an admixture of regionalism and innovative modernism. Why don't you people give it a chance before dismissing it????????????????? Oh, I forgot, you're worried about your money...(not that that's a bad thing)
The negativity is making me feel very negative.
PS: THIS IS A TOWN, NOT A PRODUCT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MittenReckitt , are you a realtor? |
Joan Auer
Citizen
Username: Joan
Post Number: 136
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 10:47 am: |
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What's in a Name? For Sleepy Hollow, New Dreams
Print Single-Page Save
By MARY MCALEER VIZARD
Published: January 5, 1997
BURNS PATTERSON is thrilled that he does not have to hedge anymore when people call him asking the whereabouts of Sleepy Hollow.
''I'm always getting calls from people around the country asking, ''Just where is Sleepy Hollow?' '' said Mr. Patterson, the public relations manager of Historic Hudson Valley, a nonprofit organization that operates several historic sites in Westchester. ''I've always had to explain that Sleepy Hollow is a fictional place, although the landmarks from Washington Irving's story are here.''
Mr. Patterson says his life has become a lot easier since the residents of what was North Tarrytown voted on Dec. 10 to change the name of their village to the name made famous by Irving's ''The Legend of Sleepy Hollow.''
''Now when I'm asked about Sleepy Hollow I can just say it's located two miles north of the Tappan Zee Bridge,'' he said. ''It's a lot easier.''
The name change is particularly good news for Mr. Patterson because Historic Hudson Valley, which is based in Sleepy Hollow, is in the business of promoting the legend and folklore of the river valley communities. ''Our promotional literature already calls it ''Sleepy Hollow Country,'' he explained. ''Our web site is accessed by 'sleepyhollow.org.' ''
Historic Hudson Valley provides tours of several historic sites in the region, including Sunnyside, once the home of Washington Irving, in Tarrytown. Its most popular attraction by far is Kykuit, the palatial Rockefeller estate situated in Sleepy Hollow and adjacent Pocantico Hills.
''Ever since Kykuit opened in 1994, our attendance figures have shot up,'' Mr. Patterson said. ''In 1993, we had a total of 152,000 visitors to our sites a year. That went to 216,000 in 1994, the year Kykuit opened. And we're expecting it to reach 250,000 this year.''
Mr. Patterson maintains that history has always been the region's main draw and that the name change can only add cachet to the village.
''North Tarrytown always seemed like a poor relation to Tarrytown,'' he said. ''Sleepy Hollow makes a lot more sense. It reflects the village's sense of history. And I think it will also help property values, which I've always felt were tied to the village's history.''
Realtors had mixed reactions about how the name change might affect their businesses.
''Some of my agents are blase about the change,'' said Robin Friedman, manager of Houlihan/Lawrence's office in Irvington. ''But I think it will help attract people from Manhattan.''
AS it now stands, Sleepy Hollow is a village of contrasts. For most of the 20th century, North Tarrytown was known primarily as an industrial town, dominated by a massive General Motors plant, which is now closed but still occupies nearly 100 acres of the village's waterfront.
Modest single-family homes that were built for the plant's workers still line Beekman Avenue, the village's main thoroughfare. Then there are far wealthier neighborhoods in the northernmost reaches, including Philipse Manor and Sleepy Hollow Manor. Both have an abundance of large Tudor and Colonial homes, priced between $300,000 to $800,000.
After the vote, some North Tarrytown residents who wanted to keep the old name accused the residents of ''The Manors'' of wanting a more elitist-sounding name.
But others welcomed the change. Ken Ray and his wife, Laura Moffat, recently moved to Sleepy Hollow from Fort Greene, in Brooklyn, buying a Victorian house in the Webber Avenue neighborhood, where most houses sell for between $225,000 to $350,000. ''When we bought our house, we didn't even know about the name thing,'' said Mr. Ray, a developer of nonprofit housing in New York City.
''We both wound up voting for the change,'' he said. ''I just thought it was a cooler name. That was really the main reason behind my voting for it.''
Mayor Sean Treacy, a big supporter of the change, is hopeful that the new name will signal a fresh start for his village now that General Motors has closed its plant. The village is now working to rezone the General Motors property, and plans to submit a draft to the Board of Trustees on Tuesday, he said.
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Shanabana
Citizen
Username: Shanabana
Post Number: 714
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 10:55 am: |
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I give up.  |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 4367
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 11:01 am: |
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Shanabana,
Just curious - how long have you lived here for? |
Shanabana
Citizen
Username: Shanabana
Post Number: 715
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 12:08 pm: |
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Two years. |
Nancy - LibraryLady
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3650
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 12:15 pm: |
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About 80 percent of freshmen live on campus
From SHU Web site in answer to Politcalmon's Seton Hall is mostly a commuter school |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 4370
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 12:20 pm: |
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Shanabana,
Aha! That explains alot of your frustration at the pessimism here. I encourage you to go back in to the Archives on MOL and read some of the old threads. There are threads dating back to 1999, where people were talking about the Supermarket, SOPAC, Redevelopment etc. Here is one from 2001 (FIVE Years ago) when the Supermarket was first announced.
http://www.southorangevillage.com/cgi-bin/show.cgi?tpc=129&post=33071#POST33071
I also encourage you to re-read Meeting Minutes from the Board of Trustees Meetings from the same period http://www.southorange.org/minutes.asp to see how long we have been told "coming soon" by Calabrese & Company.
After reading some of the history & speaking to people who have lived here 5+ years, I think you will have a better appreciation for the complete distrust of Calabrese & anything he says.
I'd be more than happy to speak to you in person about this anytime. |
mjh
Supporter
Username: Mjh
Post Number: 648
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 12:23 pm: |
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Thanks LL: I was sure the "commuter school" statement was wrong, but I was too lazy to look it up.
Don't give up Shanabana.
MOL posters are not a representative sample of the SO population. The idea died before, and it will likely die again unless the two towns really do join governments. And that probably won't happen either. |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 10049
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 12:37 pm: |
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(Statistically, it is a valid representative sample.)
I tell clients who are creating or extending a brand that it's not their name or logo that imbues their organization with meaning and associations, but the other way around. (Not that messing up a perfectly good logo like MasterCard just did helps.) |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12051
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 12:45 pm: |
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A few years ago Passaic Township (actually in Morris County next to Chatham Township) changed its name to Long Hill Township because of negative implications as respect "Passaic". I don't know if this has worked for them or not. |
SO1969
Citizen
Username: Bklyn1969
Post Number: 356
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 12:56 pm: |
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Shanabana -
There is a difference between not wanting to spend money and wanting to spend money on different things. Every time I point out that things cost money and you need to make choices, you paint posters in my vein as money grubbers.
Pointing out that the projects cost money doesn't make me or any other poster overly concerned with our money, it means we have a different view of what is in the long-term interest of most residents in SO - i.e., we have different priorities. You can tax only so much and you need to make the best use of those moneys.
It is frustrating to hear people repeatedly bemoan the lack of ratables and the fact that big chunks of our taxes go to the schools or to the County, AND then vote to:
- Build a $15 million movie theater cum college theater space (yes, this project will be about $1,000 per resident, not per household - do you think you'll get your money's worth?)
- Install a replica sculpture that as a % of SO budget is on par or greater than the Memorial at the WTC as a % of the NYC budget
WHILE driving on roads with huge potholes and having streets that don't drain properly during big rain storms and having a huge temporary air conditioning unit in front of the library and a leaking roof in the library AND all this new spending on art stuff when a landmark, trademark art work - our historic village hall, is falling apart.
AGAIN. These people don't get it. Register and vote. |
Shanabana
Citizen
Username: Shanabana
Post Number: 717
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 1:01 pm: |
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MHD. I realize why people are upset with the government, and with the pace of fixing up the Ave, and with the bewildering types of redevelopment that are underway (and not). I just don't think that "rebranding," in a way that distances one from one's history, is a healthy thing to do. Of course real estate folks may disagree...
I'm not even saying that changing the name would not help our image and possibly our wallets--it very well may, as there are many clueless buyers out there.
I'm stating that it seems very elitist, in a way that makes me frankly uneasy. I moved here FOR it's proximity to urban areas, for the history of the place. If I wanted blandsville and "white bread," I'd have moved to Chatam or Nutley or something.
I'm not a fan of Calabrese's, and I may be a newbie, but I know he's not responsible for the name of this town.
PS: I'd love to chat sometime.
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Shanabana
Citizen
Username: Shanabana
Post Number: 718
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 1:08 pm: |
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SO1969:
Please, cut the vitriol with regards to me. My pont was that the SOPAC is NOT BAD LOOKING. Period.
As regards moolah, I said that worrying about money is NOT A BAD THING. I meant that.
(My posts about TAU in the past have argued maninly on aesthetic grounds about this being a specifically modernist piece, and that people don't usually like modernism, etc...Forgive me, I think in aesthetic and historical terms. It's what I do.)
PS: I understood that this thread was about REBRANDING. |
SO1969
Citizen
Username: Bklyn1969
Post Number: 357
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 1:55 pm: |
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I don't think SOPAC is bad looking. I think it is too large for the space/scale of its surroundings.
That is what I meant by design. Even with those drawbacks, I will not mind having SOPAC in SO because I think it is too big. I think it is a generally attractive (albeit too large and poorly located).
My problem with SOPAC is that the decision to build it was based on a strategic view of South Orange that was and is wrong, ie, we need to become an "arts destination" to be a healthy, thriving community. Wrong. Also, even if the premise were accurate, would this be the best, most cost effective way to define ourselves as such? You have the Paper Mill Playhouse nearby and you have NJPAC not too far away. I don't pretend to be an expert, but you also have some venues in Montclair. Where does SOPAC fit in the competitive landscape? Oh, and the commercial cinema (a declining industry) is going to cross subsidize the art space (? - question, if the economics aren't there to build a new cinema without public money, how is the cinema gonna generate extra money to subsidize the art space?)
Wouldn't it make more sense to build on the foundation of the jazz programming and presence of jazz musicians? I don't know, build a new bandshell or increase programming or something. I'm not saying SOPAC won't be nice to have, but from a cost/benefit analysis, it doesn't add up and it could end up costing us far more than has ever been told (a main source of expected debt repayment is the CDBG program - watch Republican budget proposals for the next few years, see what their recommendations are for that program). And it is taking up valuable real estate near the train station, when it is unrelated to the train station. And its budget scale is so huge - think of it like the Defense Budget or the Interest Cost in the federal budget - something that if you could somehow get rid of, it would open up huge new opportunities. In the scale of out little town, it is that huge and it taking away resources that could have been used for a number of essential items before we spent it on this optional amenity.
This all has to do with the re-branding in that if South Orange's central village were self evidently a middle to upscale community (or our govt were making a good effort of going in that direction, instead of voting for these special interest, non central projects), then I don't think this thread would exist. |
Shanabana
Citizen
Username: Shanabana
Post Number: 719
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 2:24 pm: |
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SO1969 You make excellent points. I only hope that since the thing IS already going up, that the community bands together to make it work. To tell you the truth, I'm not a schlepper. I don't have any plans to go to NJPAC. I know that here are jazz groups booked already for SOPAC, though, and I might go see those. So they do seem to be trying to cater to local interests a bit (albeit at a bigger cost thann a band-shell). Hopefully they'll get some kids acts in there, too. My family is very eager to attend the cinema there (we can walk, so parking's not an issue). One of the best ways, I think, for us to make sure our downtown thrives is to patronize he businesses that are there now (and not only Bunny's) and are soon to be. |
Stuart0628
Citizen
Username: Stuart0628
Post Number: 281
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 3:34 pm: |
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My sister lived in Sleepy Hollow for a couple of years. She did not move there because it was named Sleepy Hollow rather than North Tarrytown. She moved there because of its location and the quality of the housing stock.
I moved to South Orange 10 years ago. I did not move here because of, or in spite of, the name. I came for the tree-lined streets, the good houses at then-affordable prices, and Midtown Direct.
Please, let's not create a red herring. Let's focus energies on fixing what needs fixing (infrastructure, governance), rather than siphoning energy into a superficial matter like this. |
bettyd
Citizen
Username: Badjtdso
Post Number: 262
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 4:28 pm: |
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Yes. Let's forget about a name change and concentrate on making things better in South Orange. A name change is a superficial move that doesn't fix a thing and only creates more questions. |
JoRo
Citizen
Username: Autojoe51
Post Number: 125
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 4:37 pm: |
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i'm perplexed by the scale of SOPAC (not bad looking, but simply massive and outsized for the quaint village). that said, i do believe a quality movie theater will be well-attended by audiences from south orange and the vicinity. even with on-demand programming and netflix, walking (or driving) with friends and family to a nice theater is a great experience. true njpac, millburn and montclair (and nyc) have performing arts, but i think this community would come out in force to see theater, jazz, college-oriented acts, kids acts, comedy and the like in our backyard. if only the rest of the village didn't look so horrendously neglected. the books warn ya not to put all your eggs in one redevelopment basket. let's hope it's not true. |
MittenReckitt
Citizen
Username: Mittenreckitt
Post Number: 72
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 8:00 pm: |
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SOSully nailed it.
Re-read his post.
No Shanabanana - I'm not a realtor. Just a business person with 20+ experience who knows a branding issue when he sees one. |
combustion
Citizen
Username: Spontaneous
Post Number: 202
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 10:29 pm: |
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How about changing the name to "The Borough of the Township of the Hamlet of the Shire of South Orange Village-Burg." Works for me. |
red_alert
Citizen
Username: Red_alert
Post Number: 307
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 10:57 pm: |
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How about Lemon.
Stay with the fruit theme and represents how town investments end up. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 5590
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 11:17 pm: |
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I think there was a mistake made about the commuter school comment. Seton Hall is a SUITCASE School! Big difference! |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 5591
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 11:20 pm: |
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Bob-
I thought Long Hill changed it's name about 15 years ago. |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 1896
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 7, 2006 - 9:18 am: |
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Why would you change the name of something that is so popular?
In case you've been living under a rock the last few years: People have been moving to South Orange in droves. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 4379
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 7, 2006 - 9:22 am: |
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cmonty,
Considering there hasn't been that much new construction, with your argument, it also means people have been moving OUT of South Orange in droves.  |
Politicalmon
Citizen
Username: Politicalmon
Post Number: 195
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 7, 2006 - 9:47 am: |
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Library Lady & MJH
According to US News & World Report 42% of the 4889 undergraduates live in college owned or affiliated housing.
The total number of students that attend SHU is 9,824 - this would imply that 2053 undergraduates live on campus - Since the overwhelming majority of part time and graduate students living on campus is negligible (according to SHU Housing) this would imply that overall 20% of the total student enrollment lives on campus.
Here is a copy of the link that references the data
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/directory/brief/drlife_2632_brief.php
Just because 80% of freshman live on campus does not negate that the overwhelming majority of students commute.
Having attended 3 Colleges and Universities there is a certain feel one gets when you’re in the presence of a college town where the majority of the students live and integrate with the community.
Seton Hall does not and will never fit that bill.
I stand by my statement, I suggest looking a little further then the home page of SHU - come on you are the Library Lady after all?
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cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 1898
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 7, 2006 - 7:17 pm: |
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Of course, you're the same person who wrote: "Seton Hall is mostly a commuter school where the students rarely venture off campus and use the village business community."
Which simply isn't true. Ask restaurant owners how much of their business comes from SHU students. It's significant. I see students constantly in the restaurants up and down South Orange Avenue and Sloan Street. Not to mention blockbuster, the liquor stores, Rite Aid...
Just because they don't buy fancy candles at the candle store doesn't mean that Seton Hall folks aren't shopping in town. Seton Hall was here long before any of us were, and it will be here long after we're gone.
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Josh Holtz
Citizen
Username: Jholtz
Post Number: 518
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 7, 2006 - 7:30 pm: |
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I'm with Montgomery on this one - SHU students are critical to the development of the downtown. And while it is summer I still see students in town spending money.
And we will all need the student body to be regular patrons of Sopac when it opens. |
red_alert
Citizen
Username: Red_alert
Post Number: 308
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 8, 2006 - 8:25 pm: |
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Another town name suggestion... Limbo |
Politicalmon
Citizen
Username: Politicalmon
Post Number: 199
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 1:28 pm: |
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CmontyBurns;
It appears you find it easier to ignore the hard data – Stick to the facts and stop playing on emotions.
Let’s get real, seeing a trickle of SHU students doesn't mean they are contributing a substantial economic benefit to the village.
The horde of SHU students using village businesses has not occurred in the 12 years I've been living here and I doubt even with a substantial redevelopment whether this would ever come to fruition.
Did you attend SHU?
If you want to see a college town visit New Brunswick or Princeton.
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Sheena Collum
Citizen
Username: Sheena_collum
Post Number: 750
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 3:35 pm: |
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Politicalmon,
I think you're a bit misinformed. I'd be happy to send you the data I have from students contributing a 'substantial economic benefit to the village'.
Granted, the summer is obviously a lot lower. But to say that students are not a driving force in the village during the school year is a tad absurd.
Cmonty and Josh hit the nail right on the head. |
Frederick Schmid
Citizen
Username: Carlfrederick
Post Number: 83
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 3:56 pm: |
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Sheena,
You are right. It is also not what the students spend in a town, but also what the college spends that goes into the local economy. When I was a college VP in Kansas City Missouri, more that 75% of what the college spent in terms of salaries and supplies went right back -- directly -- to the local economy. A college is a good economic deal for any community.
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Sheena Collum
Citizen
Username: Sheena_collum
Post Number: 751
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 5:44 pm: |
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Frederick - your brilliance is greatly appreciated  |
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