| Author | Message | ||
     MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3968 Registered: 5-2001  |
Rastro, Let's just say "Coming Soon".  | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4796 Registered: 1-2004  |
I agree. We need to do something with this petition! It really irks me the BOT was well aware there were a lot of frustrated people upset there was no public discussion about the sculpture until recently! Instead of putting the question to a vote, or asking Ms Arnedt to back up her claim eveyone she soke to supported this effort and holding off signing the contracts, they signed them anyway. I'd like to see the figures for the number of people she actually spoke to for her 'survey' or whaever she called it. I'm not home so I don't have access to the informatin on my computer but I find it interesting that of the 32 people onher advisory board at least five do not even live in South Orange. Even beter, almost ALL of the rest on this board live on either Hillside, Prospect, Vose, in Montrose or Newstead. (I'm sure I'm foretting a street or two). Point is, they ALL lived on the streets she named she spoke with people. Another strange thing, a good percent of the letters to the Editor of the Snooze Wreckered were from those on her Adversoy Board and some of these people had their names on more then one leter. I believe MHD has collected way more signatures from people opposed to tax money being spent on a piece of art, then (not including the 32 people on the AC and their spouses) Ms Arndet has of people who do. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3993 Registered: 5-2001 |
An additional 75 or so signatures were collected in person today on Sloan Street where the response was incredible. People from all over town were overwhlemingly outraged at this blatantly irresponsible use of tax dollars. (I think there were only TWO people who thought the sculpture was a good idea) Please be sure to continue to send the petition to your friends and neighbors: http://www.petitiononline.com/SOtaxes/petition.html | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4841 Registered: 1-2004 |
MHD If you're going to do this again please let us know. Also, did you read in today's Ledger about the committee member from Bedminister involved in a recall? He ended up quitting. Maybe we could be as luckily!!? Bedminster official quits amid conflict Committeeman was target of recall Saturday, April 29, 2006 BY MATTHEW REILLY Star-Ledger Staff A Bedminster Township committeeman targeted for recall resigned from his seat yesterday, blaming a "small, vocal group" of people for driving him out. Kurt Joerger had been the subject of a recall campaign that began five months ago. Township officials certified the recall petition signatures last week, but Joerger made a special election unnecessary by stepping down. "I have attempted and worked to bring open and honest government to Bedminster," Joerger said in his resignation letter. "However, a small, vocal group of citizens, including various members of the township committee and the Bedminster Republican Municipal Committee, have made it clear that they have no interest in truthfulness." In his letter to Republican GOP Chairman Dale Florio, Joerger said his opponents prefer government "run behind closed doors and dictated by self-interest." He said a family health issue and his business will not allow him time to campaign the way he wants to right now. "To that end, I am hereby submitting my resignation to you, with a copy to (township clerk) Dorothy Wilkie," Joerger wrote. On April 20, the township certified more than 1,400 signatures collected on a recall petition by a bipartisan committee that claimed it was dissatisfied with Joerger's performance after his election into office in 2004. James Bellis, the GOP municipal chairman in Bedminster, said the Republican committee did not persuade Joerger to resign rather than force a special election. "The municipal committee was hopeful that the community would be spared the burden and the cost of a special election and was hoping to avoid that, but that was the extent of the urging," he said. Bernard Pane, a spokesman for the recall effort, said the work of the recall committee is now finished. "It's in the best interest of the township of Bedminster and Mr. Joerger that he does indeed step down," Pane said. "We're hopeful that the Republican municipal committee will seize this opportunity to be able to restore some dignity in choosing a replacement and putting forth qualified candidates to fill his term." Bellis said he has 15 days to submit the names of three candidates to the township committee. He said candidates will be screened May 9 and asked interested candidates to contact him by email at JLB@webspan.net. The three residents who initiated the recall -- Democrat Katherine Rupert and Republicans James H. Christie and Stuart Rose -- described Joerger as a disappointment in office and divisive for alleged acts of harassment and conflicts of interest. Joerger had said the recall was orchestrated by political opponents who wanted to stifle his scrutiny of Mayor Bob Holtaway, a fellow Republican, and of a hotly contested State Police helicopter unit that moved from University Hospital in Newark to Bedminster 14 months ago. Matthew Reilly works in the Hunterdon County bureau. He may be reached at mreilly@starledger.com or (908) 782-8326. | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 350 Registered: 2-2006 |
That's great news, MHD. Are you going to post them with the online petition? I think seeing the names of neighbors and others people known helps persuade others. | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 351 Registered: 2-2006 |
So that makes a running total of 320, correct? How many people are going to the May gala for Tau? | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4858 Registered: 1-2004 |
SOrising Mayve I heard wrong but I thought Cheryl said at a BOT Meeting a fe weeks ago it was sold out? | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3996 Registered: 5-2001 |
JTA, I think SORising's question was how many people are actually going. According to Orange Lawn Tennis Club's website, they can accomodate up to 250 people. Although at $250/person for this event, I doubt there will be 250 people in attendence. Bottomline is that the petition already has more names than that (and growing quickly) | ||
| Mary32 Citizen Username: Mary32 Post Number: 10 Registered: 3-2006 |
MHD and SOrising, You are comparing 320 people who all they had to do is type their name under your petition online, with 250 people who paid $250 each for something they believe in. Has any of your 320 signatures paid even $1 so far for what they are protesting about? Would you, MHD and SOrising, pay $250 for your cause, any cause, that you so loudly protest about with just words? I doubt it. Put your money where your mouth is mister, and stop comparing apples and oranges. Mary | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3998 Registered: 5-2001 |
Mary, 1) Are there even 250 people who are paying $250? I don't think any numbers of attendees has been publicized. 2) EVERYONE ONE OF US will be paying $50 - $100 for a sculpture that only a very small vocal minority want. 3) Are you on the Sculpture committee? | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 629 Registered: 6-2005 |
Mary 32- The last time I checked I was supposed to be living in a democracy where people can let their wishes be known to the electorate by signing petitions. If you can get people to fork up $250 for the statue, great. Now if you could only get enough people to cover the complete cost, rather than impose your will on me via an increase in my taxes. I am not convinced that the will of the majority is being served by this project. Please convince me otherwise with facts, not conjecture or intimidation. | ||
| Mary32 Citizen Username: Mary32 Post Number: 11 Registered: 3-2006 |
MHD, 1) Even just 100 people who paid $250 for the sculpture, are 100 more than your 0 people who paid $250 against the sculpture. 2) EVERYONE OF YOU pay the same $50-$100 that those of us who paid the additional $250. So you still paid $0 when you compare the signatures of the petitions to those who paid the $250 in support of the project. 3) Am I on the sculpture committee? None of your business. Put your money where your mouth is mister, and stop comparing apples and oranges. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4867 Registered: 1-2004 |
jayjay- Well she told you!!!  My guess would be'yes!' I'd be happy to put up the $250 to show my support in the displeasure in the manner in which most of us who live here were misled with the information about the sculpture. | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 1537 Registered: 3-2002 |
I'll write a check for $250 to the sculpture committee the day after the committee officially takes its hands out of the town's pockets and shoulders the entire cost of this project. I'm not holding my breath. Otherwise, I'm holding my money as a donation to viable opposition candidates for our current BOT leadership. We need a completely different culture in our town government, which allows for honest debate of projects like this, rather than burying them in the sidewalks budget and then claiming the public was informed. Till then, let me know when someone will be at the train station again with the paper version of the petition (I'd rather sign paper than online, given our BOT's distrust of online forums). The sculpture might be OK, but the fundraisers' willingness to accept the underhanded way the process has proceeded is not. I'm willing to delay or lose the sculpture rather than have it built under these terms. To me this is not a case where the end justifies the means. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3999 Registered: 5-2001 |
JTA, LOL! Yes...there will be many people spending $250 toward the campaign next year to vote out the politicians that LIED to the public to get this sculpture without any public discussion or factual proof of any benefit we will receive from this huge expenditure. ----------- NO TAXES FOR TAU!! | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4874 Registered: 1-2004 |
If Mary32 is who I think she is I am surprised she is causing a ruckous over this; especially if she is who I think she is she is anti Calabrese and Co. If she isn't I aploigize. (Mary, did you use to use a different screen name)? And if she is who I think she is she is not on the sculpture board. Nor do I think she'd be going to the 'gala.' Whicn from what I understand there were not as many tickets as someone suggested sold yet. Look at it this way. With 32 people on the TSAB (including our VP and at least one trustee) 5 members of the PG board (four of which are tied to TSC) double that number you have 64 people. Then the letters from those not connected to either group - I'd guess about 100 tickets have been sold. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4001 Registered: 5-2001 |
JTA, I would guess you are probably pretty close, which is terrible news, since the Village has committed to spend ADDITIONAL TAX DOLLARS for any money not raised by fundraising. Right now, the MINUMUM of tax dollars that the Village has committed to is $250,000 PLUS any shortfall in fundraising, without a single public hearing on this expenditure. | ||
| SO1969 Citizen Username: Bklyn1969 Post Number: 294 Registered: 7-2004 |
Great post Susan1014. If any BOT members are lurking, look hard at her post. | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 352 Registered: 2-2006 |
I second that, SO1969. Mary32, I'm not really sure what your point is, ultimately. You asked me a question. Yes, I would pay $250 many times over to get responsible leaders elected to the board of trustees. My comparing stop Tau now petition signers and people attending the sculpture gala WAS comparing apples and apples. When it comes to voting, each registered voter gets one vote. It doesn't matter how much money someone is paying for the gala or for anything else. I also know that susan1014's implicit point that the "fundraisers" for Tau would raise more money if they got their hands out of the town's pockets and stopped lying about the support they have in town is true. But, for many reasons, it is very clear they are not interested in raising money for the sculpture as much as they are in subverting funds bonded for sidewalks and street repairs, in addition to the extra money everyone will have to pay for the sculpture against their wishes. The Pierro Foundation and TS Sculpture people could care less that the sidewalks and streets in front of many people's homes in SO will go unrepaired so that they can inflict their desires on those particular homeowners paying a debt for a service they will never get. I'm also perplexed about your seeming indignation about this mary32. Really, what is your point? | ||
| Mary32 Citizen Username: Mary32 Post Number: 12 Registered: 3-2006 |
My point SOrising is that the signatures of 150 permanent residents who are against the sculpture (I discount the 100 signatures of SHU students because they are temporary residents who have little interest in the future of South Orange, and they signed only because Sheena told them to - go ahead Sheena shoot) do not carry the same weight in my book as the 100-200 permanent residents who pay $250 to support the sculpture. They have put their money where their mouth is, you and the other signatories haven’t. Unfortunately your political convictions blind you and you can't separate the malfeasance of the government from a worthwhile project. The Aunt is right: I am "anti-Calabrese and Co", as she puts it, but the issue of whether or not we have the sculpture in town is not a political one. It has become political because of its mishandling by the BOT and because of your self-inflicted blindness. Calabrese and the BOT are delighted to have you focus on the sculpture while their other projects are being carried unencumbered by your protests. You fell for it. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2977 Registered: 5-2004  |
Mary, have you not read the TITLE of this thread? It is not Online Petition Against Tau. It is Online Petition Against Spending Taxes for Tau. Note the difference? What would you have us spend our $250 on? The whole point is to AVOID having to spend money for a project we don't agree with. Putting up money, as you recommend, is the antithesis of what people are talking about. | ||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 1193 Registered: 5-2003 |
No, Mary. They're putting OUR money where their mouths are. That's why we object. | ||
| Mary32 Citizen Username: Mary32 Post Number: 13 Registered: 3-2006 |
What would I have you spend your $250 on? Form a legitimate organization with $250 membership fee, draft four decent citizens for the 2007 BOT, raise money to start a campaign to oust the gangrene that's eating South Orange. Then and only then you will have in government people who would spend your tax dollars the way you want, and you will be sure that there will be no more Taus paid by taxpayers money. If the Tau people can get say 150 committed people willing to pay $250 a pop, you shouldn't have any problem getting the same amount of people (the 250 signatures less the 100 students who cannot afford it and who have little interest in the future of South Orange) who would pay the same amount. If you collect from these 150 signatories $37,500 you can mount a very successful campaign for 2007. You will get nowhere by just posturing here hidden behind your anonymity, with no action taken. So what do you think MHD, SOrising, Rastro, Jayjay, JAT, and the rest? Would you put your money i.e.$250 where your mouth is? Would you collect $250 from the 150 people who signed the petition? The Tau people did so, successfully. | ||
| vermontgolfer Supporter Username: Vermontgolfer Post Number: 423 Registered: 12-2002 |
Mary32, SHOW ME THE MONEY! I don't think we've seen it yet and frankly if we can find the right candidates, $250 is a mere pittance to what it would ultimately save us in the long run. BTW, let's skip the comments about anonymity, since I don't think your last name is '32'.  | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4006 Registered: 5-2001 |
The online & hardcopy petition signatures continue to grow. If you still haven't signed: http://www.petitiononline.com/SOtaxes/petition.html P.S. To make Mary happy, you are ALSO welcome to send me a check for $250 and I promise to spend it supporting candidates who oppose Calabrese! | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 353 Registered: 2-2006 |
Mary32, your eagerness to dismiss 100 people enfranchised to vote is eccentric. While it is true that young people, as a whole, don't vote as much as older people, as a whole, it remains to be seen how many SHU students, faculty and staff will vote in the next municipal elections. And with only 25% or so of registered voters (not even of the population of SO residents) who voted in the last town elections, townies like you and me hardly can cast stones at university students for not voting. If anything, the older, wiser, "permanent" residents of SO don't have the excuse of youthful inexperience, any more than they have confronted a decision not to vote at their parents' home in order to vote here. That's caring enough in my book. If an 18-year-old can die in Iraq, I find it unseemly to suggest their potential to vote is not worthy of everyone's respect. Furthermore, as is apparent to all, the dishonest means of the town administration and BOT in the Tau affair is well matched by the dishonest means of the Pierro Foundation and the TS Sculpture group. The latter have misrepresented and actively, willingly compromised the truth in order to get money from the town they know should be going for something else. It is not merely the big, bad BOT and administration that has perverted the public will and subverted public funds. The Pierro Foundation and the TS Sculpture people are cheering them on, actively campaigning to have everyone believe dishonest means are okay if you keep telling yourself they are. The Pierro Foundation and the TS Scupture people have willfully and intentionally politicized what, as you say, should not have been. But don't for a minute pretend they are innocent, that it is all the BOT's fault. The BOT and the Pierro Foundation are cut from the same clothe. The BOT represents the corrupt desires of the Pierro Foundation because it is fashionable at the moment to do so. That is what is sad about this: people degrade themselves so eagerly and turn art into fatuous pandering. Also, vermontgolfer is right. No one really knows how much money the Tauistas have raised and they have a huge disincentive to donate as little as possible to Tau's expenses. They would just as soon subvert the money they raise to another pet project as they would see the BOT divert public money to illicit purposes. Everything they say is not true. They have gulled much of the town already. | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 1542 Registered: 3-2002 |
Wonder how much of the $250 per head will go to expenses, and how much to charity? Can't just multiply heads by ticket price and get total funds raised at most fundraising dinners... Mary, I agree with much of what you say about how to create political change here, but I disagree completely with: 1. Your assumption that the ends justify the means, even if the means include "malfeasance" and "mishandling" (in your words) 2. Your dismissiveness to local registered voters, simply because they are young and don't own property in town (didn't we fight that battle decades ago?) 3. Your attacks on anonymity while posting under a pseudonym (rather silly) One of the saddest things about all of this is the fact that the Pierro Gallery and the TS Foundation are damaging their reputations in many eyes by their role in this whole fiasco, and by the statements of some of their supporters, in this and other venues. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4895 Registered: 1-2004 |
But Mary- 33 of those people going to the 'gala' are on the board. Of the five PG Trustees four of them are also on the sculpture committee. I learned today a member of the sculpture committee is also the president of the Montrose Park Historic Association as well as involved with the Historic Preservation Commission. Funny how it seems the same people overlap the sculpture group and the groups Cheryl says she spoke with who all approve of the sculpture being paid for with our taxes. Of course they're going to agree! They're members of the same groups! And they all happen to live on the only streets and in the areas she said she 'surveyed.' Anyway, if you take those people, add in their spouses, that's 68 people right there. Oh, wait! Subtract one or two! Even though David Raftkin is a 'member' of the Sculpture Committee, he lives in Virginia. Maybe someone can explain why someone who doesn't even live in South Orange is having a say in how OUR tax money is spent. About people who 'hide' behind their real names? Aren't you doing the same thing? I did try to PL you to confirm you were who I thought you were, but you've blocked the PL option. I'm wondering why you stopped posting under your real name? Don't worry, I won't 'out' you. MHD- I'd be happy to put my money where my mouth is! I'll send you a check! (BTW According to Orange Lawn, there are still LOTS of tickets left!!!! | ||
| steel Citizen Username: Steel Post Number: 1049 Registered: 2-2002 |
-As a point of (perhaps) interest: -In this weeks edition of TIME magazine's world's 100 most influential people, Kiki Smith, daughter of Tony Smith is the only one important enough to be listed of ANY of the visual artists. The great influence of her father is also made reference to. Not that it will change the mind of any of the philistines so determined in their noble efforts to "keep the gazebo". -good luck with that. I'm sure that all of South Orange will be very proud for generations if you manage to kill the display of one of your town's most important families recognized on the world stage now in second generation. A town so proud of Tony Smith's fame and contribution that they refuse to display one of his works unless, (maybe) they don't have to pay anything for it and it goes somewhere that it would "fit in". | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 634 Registered: 6-2005 |
Apparently Ms. Smith is influential enough that she was able to dictate the most unreasonable terms in the contract the estate has with the village regarding the infamous Tau. Take the time to read it. So, I am a philistine because I want responsible government? The pro-Tau people could have achieved recognition for a home town boy in a much more responsible manner, and without the price tag we all have to swallow. Re-name a street, put up a plaque, have a display in the station or library with some small scale replicas or photos. They could have done a few bus trips to Hunter College for residents to see Tau. There were other options. But instead they choose to name call and question the artistic sensibilities of us who choose to disagree with their process, and with the BOT who rubber stamped it. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 447 Registered: 1-2006 |
So, he is important, in his daughter's opinion. Now pay up, Phillistines, or else. jd | ||
| steel Citizen Username: Steel Post Number: 1050 Registered: 2-2002 |
Pay attention Joel, -not important only in his daughter's opinion. He was on the world stage long before she even came along. Now she is also on the world stage of recognition with her own work. Their hometown response? -"Maybe name a street after them, or a plaque". -really sad. You people should be figuring out other ways to pay for the rest of the money that is needed, -not whining about how irresponsible your town government is. Try making South Orange proud. Now you've got holes in the ground AND a lovely anti-recognition movement against one of your own families achievements. Congratulations. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4018 Registered: 5-2001 |
Nice drama, Steel. I grew up in Freehold, which is the hometown of Bruce Springsteen (who is infinitely more famous than Tony Smith by any measure). People actually do visit Freehold for that reason to see the actual locations that are mentioned in many songs. A couple years ago there was a proposal in Freehold to build a statue of Bruce Springsteen at a cost of approximately $100,000. The town council voted it down because it was too expensive. Even though Springsteen has provided other charitable contributions to the town, including a brand new fire engine (not simply the rights to make one). That is called responsible government. If you and your handful of friends so desperately want a sculpture, pay for it yourselves and don't stick us with the bill and ask us to support a government that lied about it. It really is that simple | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 448 Registered: 1-2006 |
Steel, all the world's a stage. We are the laughing stock of the "municipal government wastes taxpayer monies" show. jd | ||
| crabby Citizen Username: Crabbyappleton Post Number: 582 Registered: 1-2004 |
It's performance art! | ||
| Mary32 Citizen Username: Mary32 Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2006 |
Steel, you are wasting your time. Thanks for the info though. | ||
| steel Citizen Username: Steel Post Number: 1051 Registered: 2-2002 |
Who cares what Freehold did or didn't do about their Bruce statue? South Orange is not Freehold and a statue of Bruce is not a work of Bruce. Personally I don't give a crap if you have the sense to put up the sculpture or not. What a bunch of whiners. "But gee, they LIED to us. We're not getting this thing totally for FREE. We never HEARD of him. We don't LIKE modern art. Can't it be PRETTY?" Pathetic. All the class of Freehold who's record of "responsible govenment" is out-of-control suburban sprawl and nothing else except endless fields of cookie-cutter homes and traffic jams but no one is flocking there for their cultural references. -Nice role model. Enjoy your gazebo, -It's so special. You deserve it. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4019 Registered: 5-2001 |
Huh??? The sculpture people imply that South Orange is some sort of "Mecca" for Tony Smith fans who will flock here from around the world. Freehold actually already is a "Mecca" for Bruce fans, like Liverpool is for Beatles fans. I know many people who have made those "pilgramages". But, to suggest the same level of attraction for this sculpture is just silly and has no study or factual basis to support it. If a true "Tony Smith fan" wants to see Tau, they can go into NYC today and see the EXACT same sculpture.. Seeing the same sculpture here has no more relevance than seeing it in NYC. You want to honor him, name SOPAC after him, designate his boyhood home as a landmark or name a street after him. But, supporting the lies of a government and sticking the bill to the taxpayers is nothing more than an insult to his memory, just so a handful of people can claim "bragging rights". | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 450 Registered: 1-2006 |
Thanks, Steel, and I will continue to enjoy the gazebo, until it is destroyed, consumed by a metallic, three-dimensional pac-man also known as art. jd | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 357 Registered: 2-2006 |
Steel, your easy contempt towards people who want honest government betrays the cause you claim to support. It is a great deal of what is wrong with the sculpture project, the way it has been advanced and many of those who are advancing it. I personally would love to have a TS sculpture in town, if it were located elsewhere than the planned location, handled properly, in a professional manner, not bought, owned or maintained by the town. There is no expertise in the town administration to care for it properly and when it is not cared for properly, residents will be gouged even more. We do deserve the gazebo. And we also deserve professional leadership in government as much as in futhering the arts in town. We have had neither and are paying for it heavily. Since both the public/governmental aspects and the (alleged) art-lovers/fundraising aspects of the sculpture project in its present form have both been bungled, it is necessary to reject the present plan. When forced to choose between art and honesty in public affairs, I and many others choose the latter, all the while we look to a future when we have leadership in government as well as the arts that does not diminish the qualilty of life in town and force sad, wholly unnecessary choices on us while the town is struggling with numerous, and increasingly serious, other problems. |
