| Author | Message | ||
     CJH Citizen Username: Christel Post Number: 84 Registered: 1-2006 |
This is not a political posting, otherwise I'd put it in the soapbox. Just thought those of you who are interested would like to know that three area synagogues have organized a rally in support of Israel in Grove Park this thursday from 6:30 to 8:30. And, if you're not interested but usually drive around Park/Grove/Raymond at that time of day, you have now been forwarned that those streets will be closed at that time. (I don't know what synagogues, I live near the park and got a letter from the police about an hour ago letting me know my street would be closed and I figured I'd spread the word) | ||
| Nancy - LibraryLady Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3698 Registered: 5-2001  |
Show your support for Israel at the South Orange-Maplewood Rally for Peace Thursday, July 20 beginning at 7 p.m. in Grove Park (South Orange Avenue at Grove) in South Orange. Speakers scheduled to appear include: Gov. Jon Corzine and local clergy Sponsored by Metrowest | ||
| CJH Citizen Username: Christel Post Number: 85 Registered: 1-2006 |
Thanks for filling in the details, LL! That was much more helpful than the cop who handed me the letter last night and said "There's going to be a rally... for the war, or something". | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 1023 Registered: 5-2004  |
So, is it a rally in support of Israel, or a rally in support of "peace"? | ||
| newtoallthis Citizen Username: Newtoallthis Post Number: 291 Registered: 2-2003 |
I was just thinking the same thing. I'd rather rally for peace...everywhere. | ||
| I'm Only Sleeping Citizen Username: Imonlysleeping Post Number: 187 Registered: 8-2005 |
Yeah, don't want to turn this into a political debate, but supporting Israel in this particular conflict can hardly be described as supporting peace. Whether or not you agree with their tactics. | ||
| Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 793 Registered: 10-2005  |
Ditto. | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 1024 Registered: 5-2004 |
http://www.ohebshalom.org/home/viewEvent.jsp?EventId=2943 I did a little research and found an answer to my own question - the above link gives a little more definition and lists the Co-Sponsors. This link titles the rally "STAND WITH ISRAEL AGAINST TERRORISM" | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1465 Registered: 7-2005  |
I might have to show up with my picket signs. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5182564.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5195518.stm | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5696 Registered: 1-2004  |
Here we go again. Using the public parks to make a political statement... Why not have this on the grounds of one of the Temples? I'm with 'newtoallthis...' I'd rather see it be for peace everywhere! | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4433 Registered: 5-2001  |
Nancy/CJH, Thanks for posting this. Does anyone know where people are expected to park, since I imagine security will close off many of the surrounding streets? | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1793 Registered: 9-2004  |
Yeah, don't want to turn this into a political debate, but supporting Israel in this particular conflict can hardly be described as supporting peace. Whether or not you agree with their tactics. Ditto! I’m all for self-defense, however, the way that this conflict is being handle is in question. On BOTH sides innocent civilians are being killed. The Canadians lost 6 of its citizens in Lebanon from the Israel’s bombings. What happened to Israel’s Intelilgence? In the past through their Intelligence agency, Israel usually zeros in on these perps, with less civilian casualities. It's already esimated that about 230 Lebanese people have been killed. Thirty of them Lebanese soldiers, the vast majority of them civilians. The number of Hezbollah fighters killed is not known. Peace is NOT about the killing of innocents. | ||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese  Post Number: 1836 Registered: 7-2004  |
May people who are in support of Palestine and peace also show up? | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1470 Registered: 7-2005 |
Yeah mayor, we will probably be standing in the same spot. I'm seriously considering going out to get posterboard right now and making a series of signs. Weird. we might actually agree on something | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4434 Registered: 5-2001 |
Mayor/Glock, I had no idea you supported Terrorism and kidnapping. Congratulations, the old old adage is true: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt" | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1472 Registered: 7-2005 |
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3586 Registered: 5-2004  |
Except that the route to freedom is not through killing civilians when the government of those you are killing is willing to give you your freedom - once you stop killing people. | ||
| Matt Foley Citizen Username: Mattfoley Post Number: 751 Registered: 6-2004  |
An occupied people struggling against their oppressors. Sounds much like our American Revolution does it not? btw: i'm sure if the founding fathers could have utilized roadside bombs and rocket propelled grenades to fend off the British they would have. I am not anti-Israel. I just like to think that there are two sides to this dispute and one side just has better spin doctors. | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1794 Registered: 9-2004 |
MHD Are you painting that all Palestinians are terrorist? Here’s are 2 examples of group which I doubt are terrorist since the do NOT advocate violence. PALESTINIANS FOR PEACE NOW http://www.hanania.com/palestinianpeacenow.htm Their VISION ... We oppose violence, and suicide bombings and extremism. We oppose fanatics who are Palestinian and fanatics who are Israeli and Jewish. Peace must be made between Palestinians and Israelis, not Israelis and Egyptians, Israelis and Saudis Israelis and Jordanians. Our agenda is very simple and clear. We do not negotiate peace, but we do advocate for peace and compromise and the following issues (generally expressed below): * Recognize Israel's sovereignty and security generally within the 1967 borders (some minor changes based on negotiations). This means accepting Israel as a Jewish State and saying it the way they need to hear it. We support a two-state solution, one Jewish and one Palestinian, both secure, sovereign and in borders defined pre-1967. read more on their website. Palestinians for Peace and Democracy… is a grassroots movement dedicated to educating the public about the plight of the Palestinian people and their struggle toward freedom and statehood. A just and lasting peace in the Holy Land is the ultimate goal for the movement. We seek to empower the Palestinian people to create their own democracy based on the rule of law and the respect of human rights. Those who share our values are invited to join us in our efforts to achieve freedom and a lasting peace with respect for human dignity for all. A just and lasting peace in the Holy Land is the ultimate goal for the movement. The Mayor has a valid question. If its all about peace, then whats the problem? | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3587 Registered: 5-2004 |
Actually, it does not sound like the American Revolution. Our founding fathers were not an occupied people. They were citizens of a country, left that country because they wanted various freedoms that they could not get there, fought back the locals, and founded their own country on the land previously occupied by those they took the land from. That sounds more like Israel than the Palestinians. Matt, to me it is less about the weapons used, but who is targeted. As for which side has better spin-doctors in the Israel-Palestinian conflict, I doubt either side could claim they are not spinning things. Outside the US (and inside the US in many quarters), Israel has little to no support. Is that because of their spin, the Palestinians' spin, or some unique insight that we are not privy to? | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4436 Registered: 5-2001 |
Phenix/Matt, I will make one more comment here & then any other dicussions on this topic should move to the "Politics" section. The CURRENT situation in Israel is a result of an Israeli soldier being kidnapped in Gaza and 2 Israeli soldiers being kidnapped by Hezbollah in Lebanon without any provocation. Neither of those territories are "occupied". Israel is simply acting in self-defense and I applaud their strength. I am glad to hear our town is having a rally to show support for this & will make every effort to join in attendance. Any other comments should move to the Politics section. | ||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese Post Number: 1837 Registered: 7-2004 |
MHD, I will simply repost my thought again. Look very carefully. "May people who are in support of Palestine and peace also show up?" Do you see the word peace in there? I don't think that you can equate the word peace to the words terrorism and kidnapping. Phenixrising says it best, "Are you painting that all Palestinians are terrorist?" That would be like me saying that everyone who supports Israel is a terrorist. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4438 Registered: 5-2001 |
Mayor, A new topic has been created in "All Politics". See you there.... | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12183 Registered: 5-2001 |
Matt, the tactics used by the Rebels during the revolution were condemned by the British as contrary to the rules of civilized warfare. In those days troops formed up about fifty yards from each other and fired at the opponents. The Rebels fought from cover, conducted ambushes, etc. because our militia troops couldn't stand in a line of battle against the British regulars. A couple of years ago Mem posted a poem about the killing of a young British officer that pretty much summed up the situation. In a sense we were the terrorists of our day. | ||
| bets Supporter Username: Bets Post Number: 23603 Registered: 6-2001  |
Maybe Dave could move this to Politics? | ||
| Scully Citizen Username: Scully Post Number: 766 Registered: 8-2005 |
Hezbollah has been firing into Israel (civilian neighborhoods) daily. Israel is fighting back. Are Glock, Mayor and co. such total pacifists that if hit they would not defend themselves? How else is Hezbollah to be stopped? | ||
| I'm Only Sleeping Citizen Username: Imonlysleeping Post Number: 188 Registered: 8-2005 |
It's like if someone pokes you hard in the chest and you respond by blowing their head off with a shotgun. Were you provoked? Sure. Was your response proportionate and considered and productive and morally sound? Not a chance. Surely destroying Lebanon is not the answer here. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1476 Registered: 7-2005 |
I'm not a pacifist at all. | ||
| Scully Citizen Username: Scully Post Number: 770 Registered: 8-2005 |
Yet you criticize Israel for fighting back? I'm not saying that either side are angels, but, as we speak, Israel is being bombed in civilian areas daily too. They want it to stop. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1477 Registered: 7-2005 |
So making the other side even more furious is going to help? | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 743 Registered: 1-2006 |
Making the other side dead will help. jd | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 744 Registered: 1-2006 |
The other side is in the government, is the military in the south, kills Americans and Israelis for decades, and went too far for too long. They chose to hide with the populace, and the government of which it is a part is complicit. jd | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1479 Registered: 7-2005 |
There is no way to make the other side dead. You kill the father or mother, the sons and daughters will pick up arms against their opressors and fight. | ||
| Scully Citizen Username: Scully Post Number: 772 Registered: 8-2005 |
Uh, their opressors are Hezbollah, and they're not picking up arms against them. At least not yet. I still don't understand why you think Israel is wrong for fighting back, but their attackers ore OK... Do you actually have a reason or was this an inherited opinion? | ||
| Scully Citizen Username: Scully Post Number: 774 Registered: 8-2005 |
Glock - "Israel has been screwing with these people for years." Please check out the actual history. Every time Israel went in it was to stop attacks, often on civilians. Just glancing over the history I can see how tempers are getting a little hair-trigger by now... And as you can see limited responses haven't worked in the past and so they seem determined to get the job done this time. Each time they went in it was a RESPONSE. Ergo, don't attack Israel, you don't get hit back. Lots of online sources. I got this Reader's Digest version from Wikipedia. First Israeli 'invasion': Cross-border attacks by Palestinian groups in southern Lebanon against civilians in Israeli territory led to an invasion by the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) on March 14, 1978 in what was titled the Litani River Operation. A few days later, the United Nations Security Council passed resolutions 425 and 426, calling for the withdrawal of Israeli forces, removal of the militant Palestinian forces, and establishing an international peace-keeping force Pro-Palestinian forces including Hizbollah have remained in the region in violation of the UN cease fire agreement Second Israeli 'invasion': The PLO's armed forces continued to use Lebanon as a base to attack Israel with rockets and artillery, and on June 6, 1982 Israel again invaded Lebanon with the objective of evicting the PLO. As of 16 June 2000, Israel had withdrawn its forces from Lebanon in accordance with UN Security Council Resolution 425 of 1978, bringing, in the UN's opinion, closure to the 1982 invasion. And that brings us up to today: The 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict or 2006 Hezbollah-Israel conflict is a series of ongoing military actions and clashes in northern Israel and southern Lebanon involving Hezbollah's armed wing and the Israeli Defense Forces. On 12 July 2006, Hezbollah's armed wing initiated their Operation Truthful Promise[1]. Eight Israeli soldiers were killed and two were captured. Israel then responded with Operation Just Reward[2], later renamed Operation Change of Direction. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1480 Registered: 7-2005 |
Killing more innocent civilians isn't going to stop attacks on Israel. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15378 Registered: 10-2001  |
Well why don't you tell us what will. Thankey. | ||
| Scully Citizen Username: Scully Post Number: 778 Registered: 8-2005 |
Glock - How come Killing more innocent civilians is only wrong when Israel does it? How about those little Arab children that Hezbollah's bombs just killed? The point is you can't send bombs that far with much precision. Surely you must agree that if fighting back is wrong, then starting the fight is even worse!!! G-d knows what the answer is, I sure don't. I haven't made up my mind yet on whether Lebanon is allowing Hezbollah to do this, or whether Syria and Iran are just total bullies here. Do you have any opinion on that? | ||
| I'm Only Sleeping Citizen Username: Imonlysleeping Post Number: 190 Registered: 8-2005 |
I'm no expert, but everything I've read about this says that neither the Lebanese government nor most of its citizens support Hezbollah. But it's a fragile government that's under enormous pressure from Syria, so there's not a huge amount they can do to control them. I mean, we can't seem to root out the insurgency in Iraq. How do we expect a much weaker government to do the same in Lebanon? Also, I will never understand the attitude that Scully is putting forth. OF COURSE it's wrong when anyone kills ANY innocent civilians. But why does this discourse always have to devolve into claims of one side being absolutely wrong and one side being aboslutely right? Both sides have displayed vile, vicious, inhuman behavior over the years, nearly always justified by some (usually legitimate) feeling of having been victimized which is then used to justify all sorts of despicable responses. The issue should not be who is right and who is wrong. Both sides are right and both sides are wrong. People need to get past that kind of thinking and figure out a solution. What that solution is, nobody really knows. But I do know that destroying Beirut (one of the most moderate, Westernized cities in the region) and killing hundreds of innocent civilians is not going to help. I just can't see how anyone could support it. | ||
| Soda Supporter Username: Soda Post Number: 4037 Registered: 5-2001  |
BTW, Glocks are made in Israel...  -s. | ||
| Scully Citizen Username: Scully Post Number: 785 Registered: 8-2005 |
I'm Only Sleeping - I think you have me mixed up with somebody else. I said 'I'm not saying that either side are angels...'. I was not saying that one side was all wrong and one all right (at least I didn't mean to). But I was trying to counter balance a poster who I felt was. If you couldn't understand that then I apologize for not making it clearer, and for muddling it up by jumping threads. Rereading it all I realize that I was responding to posts both here and in another thread (it was started elsewhere and continued here). But no where did I say that one side was 'absolutely wrong and one side being absolutely right..' Absolutely NOT what I meant, but exactly what I thought the other poster was saying. | ||
| I'm Only Sleeping Citizen Username: Imonlysleeping Post Number: 191 Registered: 8-2005 |
Apologize for misunderstanding you. But I do feel like the attitude I'm describing is the prevailing one in these discussions, and I find it repellent. | ||
| Scully Citizen Username: Scully Post Number: 787 Registered: 8-2005 |
OK, I've GOT to go to bed (work nights) but did you read this thread in Soapbox: All Politics? What gets confusing (to me, anyway) is that there are two parallel threads on the same topic. Check it out. I actually think the other one is meaner. No apologies necessary. This is a conversation, right? I like that people are at least listening to each other (in most cases) and responding in kind with no name calling. Later! (I'll sneak a peak at the board from work -yawn- tonight). | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4447 Registered: 5-2001 |
A very worthwhile gathering in Grove Park tonight! There were probably 250-300 people who listened to remarks by Corzine, Codey, Profeta, Calabrese, all local rabbis and the Preacher(?) from the Baptist Church. The most moving were the remarks from an Israeli who is here for the Summer and was impressed by the support shown for his country. Thanks to everyone who organized this event! | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1508 Registered: 7-2005 |
No it wasn't. it was a misuse of public land and it blocked of public streets. Religious gatherings should be held in their respective religious places. | ||
| Nancy - LibraryLady Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3711 Registered: 5-2001 |
 The Governor was forceful and earnest, but I have to agree with MHD that the young Israeli and his fellow Israeli students were most moving. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4449 Registered: 5-2001 |
Glock, Funny....I seem to have missed your "picket" tonight. All I saw were several hundred people of various religions and colors joined in complete and total support of Israel. It made me very proud. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1513 Registered: 7-2005 |
I already responded in political soapbox. Not worth my time. zealots. etc etc etc. read it over there. I cant be bothered with this double posting nonsense. | ||
| bets Supporter Username: Bets Post Number: 23623 Registered: 6-2001 |
Um, Dave? Please? http://www.southorangevillage.com/cgi-bin/show.cgi?tpc=3133&post=655206#POST6552 06 | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 1041 Registered: 5-2004 |
Bets is right - this should be moved to the Politics thread because it was not a "religious gathering". Israel is a country and people gathered in Grove Park to show support for that country defending itself against aggressors. If it were a local religious event, Corzine certainly wouldn't have been there - it was purely a political photo-op for him, just like Hillary speaking at the support rally in NYC. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3609 Registered: 5-2004 |
Maybe just close this one, and keep the conversation going in the thread already in the All Politics section. | ||
| Nancy - LibraryLady Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3715 Registered: 5-2001 |
Agreed. If Dave doesn't close it, we can just stop posting here and take it to the Soapbox. FWIW, I think it was more than a photo op for Corzine. He spoke first and then stayed for over an hour instead of ducking out when he was finished speaking and the news media had their snippets. | ||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese Post Number: 1863 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thank you Corzine for raising my taxes and closing down the government. Maybe he should have left so he can actually do some work. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1520 Registered: 7-2005 |
I like the sound of that, Mayor. |
