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wnb
Citizen
Username: Wnb
Post Number: 514
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 18, 2006 - 4:54 pm: | 
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LOL I'm all for "financial transparancy" and it will be good to know the $$ behind the PILOT if someone can find it but what exactly are you going to do with that information once you get it?
Either be a little more outraged or a little less outraged.
Either way, you're not going to change it. There's no real leverage for negotiation here. But like I said, if you want to bang your head against a wall, SHU provides a very nice one surrounding their entire campus to accomodate you.
There are more productive ways to go about affecting a positive change and partnering with SHU.
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Irvington Pirate
Citizen
Username: Irvingtonpirate
Post Number: 84
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 11:01 pm: |
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Sorry to be bumping this topic but I've been away and wanted to reply. Didn't want JTA or anyone else thinking I was backing down.
JTA - WOW! This one is going to take some time to respond to and that kind of time I just don't have tonight but I will try to address each of your points real soon. Stay tuned.
This is the post I'm talking about...
Irvington P
How many times do I have to tell you I went to Seton Hall? I think I still have my acceptance letter in a box in our attic somewhere; want to see it? Bitter, not at all.
I'm not an idiot, I know you've said in the past that you attended Seton Hall. You don't have to keep telling me and I don't need to see your acceptance letter. However, the way you always speak about Seton Hall, I have a tough time believing you aren't bitter about the experience. You never have anything positive to say. Just curious, what did SHU do to you that you resent them so much?
But I will fight tooth and nail when students from SH think South Orange should pay for some kind of Jitney for students. I will continue to encourage residents to call the police about under age drinking and loud parties that disrupt the quality of life in South Orange. I will also speak out and not encourage SH buying any more property in town that will result in even a bigger tax loss. I don't think too many South Orange residents realize how much property the college actually owns.
What students ever thought that South Orange should pay for a special Jitney just for the students? I've never seen that here. I have seen students suggest that the town and university work together on a jitney or that stops by the university be added. That is a lot different than what you are saying.
If anyone, not just SHU students, disrupts the quality of life in South Orange then I would hope that you and anyone else would call the proper authorities and have the issue dealt with. That's just common sense.
I guess you can speak out all you want about the university purchasing property within the Village but I doubt it will have any impact. You can't prevent SHU from purchasing property and you can't prevent people from selling property to SHU. Not for nothing but I think it would be against the law for that to happen. Personally, I hope SHU does expand and purchase more property in South Orange, they can certainly use it. SHU, according to the university's website, is looking to increase enrollment. That means you need more places to put people. That means purchasing more property!
I could comment on why Chapel Hill, and South Bend take pride in the Universities located in their communities, but I'm not in the mood to get into an all out battle with you.
Then go for it! I want to hear your arguements. Why should Chapel Hill and South Bend take pride in their universities but South Orange refuses to take pride in theirs? If you have a legit argument then share it. If you don't then you won't. I'll be waiting.
And I don't know if you realize it or not, but you have totally slammed the people who live on Irvington Ave or any of those streets behind the college. If you really want to do something for the town, why not do something to help bring the area of Ward and Irvington Ave back to life? It's very close to campus.
I'm not trying to slam anyone or any section of town. If you knew me and knew where I come from you would know that. You don't know me though so you assumed and you assemed wrong. Quite honestly, I see nothing wrong with SHU trying to revitalize Irvington Avenue (and what the hell is wrong with Ward Place, it's all residential and the owners keep their properties nice). Irvington Avenue looks tired and worn down. Nobody does anything to brighten up and liven up the area. The Village has long ignored this area, why I don't know. Maybe they don't pay as much in taxes as you and Glock so they are at the bottom of the list, just above SHU, on the list of places to have anything to do with.
It's not that I don't think it would be nice for the College to have more of a presence in the Village, it's more I don't want SH to OWN anymore property in the Village because it would take that building off the tax rolls. to walk.'
See above. If SHU wants to buy it and the seller wants to sell it, it will happen.
There is a big difference in being bitter against SH and looking out for the town I have lived in most of my life.
The way you post, it doesn't seem that way at all. Why wouldn't you want to see your alma mater expand, grow and do well? The university is no longer the local commuter school of many year gone by. SHU is a national university that is looking ahead and is only going to get bigger and better on many levels. |
Irvington Pirate
Citizen
Username: Irvingtonpirate
Post Number: 85
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 11:05 pm: |
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Glock posted -
If Seton Hall wanted to reach out to the town they would stop this PILOTS nonsense and drop some real dough.
Hey Glock, the university does "drop some real dough". Would you rather they not pay anything? Truth is SHU doesn't have to pay a dime but they do. You should know what you're talking about before you post this sort of nonsense. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1842
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 12:13 am: |
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"Would you rather they not pay anything? " No, I'd rather they pay taxes. |
Irvington Pirate
Citizen
Username: Irvingtonpirate
Post Number: 87
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 12:34 am: |
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Well Glock, that ain't gonna happen! SHU, as with every other church/religious organization, doesn't have to pay taxes according to the law. You just don't get it do you? How much simpler can people spell it out for you?
SHU doesn't have to pay a dime, not one red cent. However, they choose to contribute to the town. Keep in mind they don't have to but they do. Call them PILOTS or call them taxes, bottom line is South Orange is getting cash they technically are not entitled to. SHU does it to be a good neighbor. Maybe those complaining about the PILOTS should be a little more humble because if SHU wasn't paying this money then maybe your taxes (well, not your's per se, you're a kid who isn't paying anything) would go up or services would be cut.
So, given the choice of SHU paying the PILOTS they currently choose to pay or your parents taxes going up and/or services being cut, which would you choose? The temper tantrum you're throwing about taxes is not an option. Which is it? |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1843
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 12:46 am: |
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To me, SHU is an educational institution.
Regardless, they don't have to contribute, true. But from what I've heard so far, the PILOTS don't even come close to what the tax revenue would be. We're still awaiting exact figures, though. |
SoOrLady
Citizen
Username: Soorlady
Post Number: 3498
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 9:11 am: |
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Glock - and anyone else who's curious. Why not call the Village tax office? If they can't give you the exact number, perhaps they can at least give you the formula from which that number is calculated. I actually think the PILOTS come very close at $200,000+ per year... Mark? |
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 2231
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 10:17 am: |
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I think SHU should stop paying the town. This would help to control their tuition which keeps edging ever higher.
From the title of the thread I had been hoping that this was about the basketball team. UConn won the title, and hopefully SHU can do the same soon. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2922
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 10:32 am: |
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SoOrLady: SHU pays the village the municpal portion of the taxes for property they own outside the main campus. That comes to about $150,000. They also contribute $10,000 to Main Street. In the past from time to time they have donated additional funds. Usually at least once a year they have a fundraiser to help the rescue squad (last year that came to just over $300).
If they were to pay their "fair share" it would be about $600,000 for the property they own that is not on the main campus. For the property on campus, the bill would be about $1,500,000 (conservative estimate). Altogether that means the total tax bill would be over $2,000,000.
Irvington Pirate is correct that SHU does not have to pay a dime in taxes. My feeling is our complaint should be with Trenton which gives SHU a tax break but does not help fund the shortfall. More than once the state has been requested to pass legislation to help deal with this issue. It is very difficult for the residents of a small town to absorb the cost of a tax-exempt institution. The fact is if they were required to pay their fair share our taxes would be lower by about 10% (I have never seen an exact calculation).
Personally, I asked SHU to consider adding a $50.00 surcharge per semester to each full time student's tuition bill. This would generate over $500,000 / year (that would be the equivalent to over a 3% reduction in our municipal taxes) and we promised to use the money only for public safety.
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jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 757
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 12:26 pm: |
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I can't imagine Trenton taking away the tax exemption from religious institutions. South Orange has Seton Hall which is a big chunk of property, but it also has Our Lady of Sorrows, three temples, MaryLawn, several other churches of various denominations, Opus Dei (which a recent thread revealed - not sure if it is tax exempt), and probably some others I am forgetting. So we can cajole these places till the cows come home and try to lay guilt, but the fact is they do not have to pay taxes. What this says to me is that the BOT has an even greater responsibility to be fiscally responsible in how it spends, and that some new thinking is needed in village hall.
In my opinion we had no business building SOPAC (given we have not seen any business plan as to its financial viability.) Instead, perhaps our Rec. Dept. could have worked with Seton Hall to have them broaden their theatrical offerings to engage more of the village residents. Park concerts could be a collaboration instead of just village sponsored. The point is that there may be ways to get Seton Hall to contribute rather than hammering home on the tax exemption. And while we're at it, we had no business ever spending one cent on Tau. Seton Hall has an Art History Dept. Why not engage them to "bring art" to the village, like offering class audit opportunities to residents for free, etc.
So especially in light of all the tax exempt properties in the village, we should examine every line item in the municipal budget and have justification for every dollar asked for. Crying to Trenton hasn't and won't work, particularly if we don't have our own financial house in order first. |
Politicalmon
Citizen
Username: Politicalmon
Post Number: 259
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 12:28 pm: |
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'SHU pays the village the municpal portion of the taxes for property they own outside the main campus. That comes to about $150,000.'
Mark,
Is this considered the 'PILOT' payment? |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1880
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 1:02 pm: |
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jj- SHU does not derive its tax exempt status because it is a religious institution. It's tax exempt status results from it being a non-profit educational institution. It would be exempt from property tax if it were a secualar school. All colleges and universities in N.J. are exempt from property tax. Some have voluntarily agreed to PILOTs for their main campuses. |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 1974
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 1:42 pm: |
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Any estimates on how much $ Seton Hall students and faculty contribute to the South Orange economy?
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Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1881
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 1:57 pm: |
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cmonty - That's an interesting question. I don't know the answer. I know you and others feel that SHU students contribute a lot to the economy. This may very well be true. It seems that Mark's suggestion of adding a $50 fee to each student's bill to go towards public safety isn't asking much of the students, if in fact they do contribute so much to the local economy. Mark's number of obtaining $500,000 per year in this manner would help a lot, while not imposing much of a burden on the students. |
Psychomom
Citizen
Username: Psychomom
Post Number: 650
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 2:52 pm: |
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I think the $50 surcharge is probably illegal especially if only SHU is required to do so....Is Marylawn going to charge a surcharge to its students, or OLS??? What about the aforementioned churches and synogogues, they have Sunday School or Hebrew schools should they be charged? It just doesn't seem to fly to me anyways....nice try though keep thinking you'll come up with something eventually. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2923
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 3:03 pm: |
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politicalmon: It is considered the PILOT.
Psychomom: It would not be illegal if SHU volunteered to do so which was the request. No question we could not impose such a fee. Most if not all members of a synagogue pay taxes to the town, whereas the students do not.
Cmonty: I think the question should be, do the students contribute more to the local economy than would residents who would live on that land if there was no SHU. Clearly there is some positive impact to some businesses by having SHU in town.
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jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 759
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 4:08 pm: |
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I would think that most towns would love to have a university in its midst. It can add vibrancy and vitality to a community. Granted there are some downsides mostly related to housing. But if that can be managed by zoning, policing, code enforcement, etc., having a university in town can be a "win." But for that to be the case, you need an administration in both the village and the school who have the vision and will to collaborate. I have never felt that in the time I've lived here. There is no sense of integration.
Take, for example, the train station. Does anything cue you into the fact that Seton Hall is in town? Where are the banners in our downtown that highlight Seton Hall events? I lay blame on both administrations. Neither recognizes the synergy that's possible. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2926
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 4:45 pm: |
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Jayjay: There are signs on the platform indicating SHU is in town. Every year, Main street runs an event with SHU (right after school opens). There is the SHU 500 day with a parade (this year is on 09/23) and was very well attended last year. I remember numerous banners on the train trestle. The town and SHU worked out an agreement for them to participate in SOPAC. The dugouts were a joint venture. There is always a representative at the newcomers day event from SHU. The list goes on. It might not be enough, but don't act as if there has been nothing. I have met with someone from SHU at least once a year just to talk about issues. Some store owners also put up banners welcoming back the students or rooting for their teams.
SHU has been invited to participate in meetings and we have asked them for representatives. Several students are on the rescue squad and every year new ones are recruited.
I am sure more could be done but from where I sit there has been some resistance from some in the SHU administration and this was made clear at some meetings I have been at with SHU representatives.
You forget that SHU was basically a commuter school and changed gears without having the proper infrastructure (housing, parking, etc).
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SOrising
Citizen
Username: Sorising
Post Number: 726
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 5:36 pm: |
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Many colleges and universities charge a variety of fees in addition to tuiton expenses. I think security fees usually cover the expense of campus security. If SHU basically shares security with the town, with the town carrying a heavier burden for it, SHU's administration could levy a fee for security and turn over so much to the town. |
jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 760
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 6:14 pm: |
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Mr. Rosner-
I guess I never noticed the SHU sign by the train. I only recall seeing "South Orange", but I don't regularly commute, so I may have missed it.
Can you elaborate on the type of resistance you were met with by SHU administrators? I'm trying to figure out why they would resist a more noticeable presence in SO and a closer town & gown atmosphere. |
Psychomom
Citizen
Username: Psychomom
Post Number: 652
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 10:46 pm: |
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mrosner
I know it wouldn't be illegal if it was voluntary...but why should Seton Hall be the only one being pressured to "volunteer?"
What's good for one should be good for all.
BTW where is Opus Dei???? Davinci Code fans want to know. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2927
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 10:14 am: |
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Pschomom: Basically I agree with you that what is fair for one, should be fair for all. However, the members of a church or a synagogue tend to be local residents who pay property taxes whereas most of those who attend the university do not pay local property taxes. Also, a university tends to require far more of our services.
This is a perfect example of how the extraordinary aid the state gives out could be used to help towns that have an unusually large tax-exempt institution.
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Psychomom
Citizen
Username: Psychomom
Post Number: 659
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 10:22 am: |
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mrosner,
I don't think you're entirely correct on that. OLS serves SO and Mplwd and the school has kids from lots of towns. So does Marylawn, in fact I would be that most of the students from Marylawn are from Newark, Orange, East Orange rather than South Orange. You have a point that they may not be requiring as many of the town's services, but look at it this way. If that land was not church or non-profit status, and someone developped it for the real estate potential, you may have more rateables true, but you may also need more schools for the new families that would buy these properties, and the increased population may mean that you need more police and fire. So I don't think you would see enough of a difference in the long run.
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wnb
Citizen
Username: Wnb
Post Number: 545
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 10:39 am: |
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You know property taxes are through the roof when people start going for the jugular on all the tax-exempt properties in town.
This is first and foremost an issue with the ridiculously high property taxes we pay. If we were not all under such pressure regarding our own property taxes, our discussions with and about SHU could focus on the types of things I have been trying to advocate. However, given the current circumstances with property taxes here, I see that such a discussion is impossible.
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cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 1975
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 10:41 am: |
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I think it comes down to this: We all bitch about a lot of things (lack of development, high property taxes, etc.) And Seton Hall is a big, easy target. But the only way we're going to see some direct benefit from "the Seton Hall problem" is if you can somehow convince the school to make some voluntary bonanza payment straight to the town. Because -- and people like to gloss over this point -- if Seton Hall didn't exist, our taxes would still be outrageous.
(We'd just have a few thousand less people with disposable income spending money in town, and a few hundred less jobs in town, and a few dozen less Seton Hall folks owning homes in town.)
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mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2928
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 10:41 am: |
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Psychomom: I realized that the members of a place like OLS come from many towns, but then again some from S. Orange beloing to churches or synagogues in other towns. I figured that balances out.
On your point about the schools, I agree. It is not an easy problem for the village. My own feeling is that there needs to be some kind of compromise and the $50.00 per student per semester seemed reasonable to me. By the way, that idea was not really mine, in the sense there are a couple of universities in other states that have a similar arrangement (I really do not remember the names of those schools, but someone sent me their names many years ago. There was an article in a newspaper about some other arrangement that provided funds for a city - although none of those were in NJ).
As for the police and fire, my guess is we would need exactly the same (SHU has about 10,000 people on campus during the school year and we already provide police and fire for them).
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mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2932
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, September 1, 2006 - 10:26 am: |
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Jayjay: In case you did not see, this is a link to the page on the village website about SHU's annual fall family day.
http://www.southorange.org/articles.asp?articleID=214
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jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 764
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 1, 2006 - 1:20 pm: |
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I read the article, but I don't see how this is a town and gown event. Isn't this family day for students and possibly prospective students and their families? What is the town and its merchants doing to link in to this event? Is there a Main Street tie-in? Has the University reached out to residents somehow? Maybe I'm not seeing the whole picture, but if I'm not, then others aren't either. |
buddybak
Citizen
Username: Buddybak
Post Number: 34
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 1, 2006 - 5:01 pm: |
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Seton Hall SHOULD (PAY) the Taxes on all the property which includes the Following: The Ring building, The old church building, the old doctor's building, The Apartment building, Oroa manor and others that are not on the campus.Instead of just (PILOTS)or what ever they think that they would voluntarly pay. |
SoOrLady
Citizen
Username: Soorlady
Post Number: 3513
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 1, 2006 - 10:19 pm: |
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How do you figure that they SHOULD pay taxes? They are a non-profit and are not obligated to pay the town a dime on any of their properties. Seton Hall pays a PILOT on most of its off-campus holdings and has done so for a good number of years. Call the tax office for the particulars - it should be public record. |
Psychomom
Citizen
Username: Psychomom
Post Number: 695
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 1, 2006 - 10:39 pm: |
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Isn't this where we started???
Will it go round in circles?? |
Psychomom
Citizen
Username: Psychomom
Post Number: 696
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 1, 2006 - 10:39 pm: |
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Isn't this where we started???
Will it go round in circles?? |
buddybak
Citizen
Username: Buddybak
Post Number: 35
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 2, 2006 - 10:59 am: |
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There are too many pilots in this town (nonprofits) like some have many extra properties that shouldn't be allowed to be exempt from paying taxes on. Only one exempt property per church etc. like a Pastors residance only for ones in town. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1864
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 2, 2006 - 12:16 pm: |
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I wonder if those "PILOTS" come close to 2 mil. Hmmm |
buddybak
Citizen
Username: Buddybak
Post Number: 36
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 2, 2006 - 6:34 pm: |
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If; Seton Hall wants more enrollement they should take back the park land from Newark(IVY HILL PARK) and build more housing on thier campus, Expand their land for more buildings to teach the more studentsthat they are seaking,plus add a fee for each student for ths use of our public saftey departments.or have their won like Kean University has like their own Squad and etc. The Union Fire and Police Departments back them up. |
Irvington Pirate
Citizen
Username: Irvingtonpirate
Post Number: 91
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 7:36 pm: |
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Buddybak, SHU does not own Ivy Hill Park. That belongs to Newark. It would be great if the university could purchase that land but I don't think Newark is looking to sell it any time soon. Would be nice though.
Also, Kean is a state university like Rutgers and Montclair State. The state u's have their own police departments as many state u's across the country do. SHU is a private university and rely on security departments, though they are backed up by the local police just like the state schools. Also, while SHU does not have their own fire department or rescue squad there are many SHU students who volunteer and serve on the South Orange squads. |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1900
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 8:05 pm: |
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Just a little information: Monmouth University, a private university (overall enrollment 6000), has its own police department. Most calls on campus are handled by the MU police department. In fact, at times, MUPD is called by neighboring towns for assistance. MU, in addition to annual payments in lieu of taxes of approximately $200,000 per year, has contributed $250,000 towards purchase of a $500,000 fire truck for the West Long Branch Fire Department. |
buddybak
Citizen
Username: Buddybak
Post Number: 37
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 8:46 pm: |
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Seton hall used to own the property(IVY HILL PARK) but; gave it to Newark and the county years ago (So) they can take it back to increase their campus. |
Spitz
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 1901
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 9:02 pm: |
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Correction to my post: Monmouth University pays in lieu of taxes of $105,000 and makes a voluntary contribution of $55,000 to West Long Branch. MU contributed 50% towards the purchase of two fire trucks. The contribution towards the first truck of $125,000 has been fully paid. The contribution of $250,000 towards the second truck is being paid by annual contributions of $25,000. |
Irvington Pirate
Citizen
Username: Irvingtonpirate
Post Number: 92
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 12:10 am: |
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Buddy, how long ago was that? Also, since SHU no longer owns the property how would they be able to take it back? It's not like SHU leases the property to Newark, they don't even own it. Just curious if you or anyone else would know how that would work. Obviously the university could use the extra land, I just don't know how easy it would be to reacquire it. |
buddybak
Citizen
Username: Buddybak
Post Number: 38
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 9:42 am: |
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It; was given for (ONE) dollars a long tmie ago. |
Psychomom
Citizen
Username: Psychomom
Post Number: 781
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 9:55 am: |
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If money changed hands (even one dollar) it is considered a sale and SHU has no claim to it.
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argon_smythe
Citizen
Username: Argon_smythe
Post Number: 942
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 10:18 am: |
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Maybe they could offer Newark the dollar back.
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Psychomom
Citizen
Username: Psychomom
Post Number: 785
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 10:38 am: |
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Actually I was thinking...isn't Ivy Hill park a county park? Maybe Newark has nothing to do with it??!!!
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