| Author | Message | ||
     Andrea Weisbard Citizen Username: Njnetsfan Post Number: 32 Registered: 6-2004 |
I have AOL as my internet provider, I always click on the links for the news, they always have a sidebar listing other news events and what did my eyes see, they have a news story for the Holiday music ban in SO. Orange/Maplewood. I also heard the report on several radio news stations yesterday. I now that isn't the kind of publicity we need but my friend from Brooklyn heard about it last night on the channel 5 10pm news. | ||
| skay Citizen Username: Skay Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2004 |
Also in the Star Ledger today | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 586 Registered: 12-2003  |
Here t'is. Man sues district for ban on music He wants holiday tunes in schools Thursday, December 23, 2004 BY KATIE WANG Star-Ledger Staff Michael Stratechuk was watching "The O'Reilly Factor" on Fox News a few weeks ago when he decided to sue the South Orange/ Maplewood school district. The show's host, Bill O'Reilly was lambasting the district's decision to ban any vocal or instrumental renditions of songs with references to religious symbols or holidays. Stratechuk, a musician himself and father of two children in the district, was so incensed that he contacted a public-interest law firm in Michigan that specializes in cases involving religious rights. The firm, Thomas More Law Center in Ann Arbor, filed a lawsuit on Stratechuck's behalf on Friday, alleging that the board's policy is unconstitutional. "The policy is too broad," said Stratechuk. "What they've done is offended a whole lot of people." Judy Levy, spokeswoman for South Orange/Maplewood schools, said district officials have no comment on the lawsuit because they have yet to receive it. The lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court, alleges that the policy, passed in the 1990s, serves no legitimate secular educational purpose. "Such a ban on religious music does not promote -- indeed, it undermines -- the provision of a comprehensive education program," states the complaint. "Defendants' policy has the purpose and effect of conveying a message of disapproval of and hostility toward religion, including Christianity." The policy in question has been in place for some time, but it has stirred up controversy because the district clarified its restrictions this year, saying it also applied to instrumental versions of songs in addition to vocals. That means choirs and instrumental groups must stick to songs such as "Winter Wonderland" or "Frosty the Snowman," which are absent of any religious or holiday references. The district has come under fire nationally and within the community, which prides itself on its racial and ethnic diversity. The lawsuit is the first one filed, but other interest groups have threatened similar action. The defendants in the case are the board of education and Peter P. Horoshak, the district superintendent. The Thomas More Law Center describes itself on its Web site as a nonprofit public--interest law firm dedicated to the defense and promotion of the religious freedom of Christians. Stratechuk, 42, moved to Maplewood seven years ago and is a violinist and music instructor at Hunter College High School in New York. Neither of his sons, a seventh- grader and a ninth-grader, are involved in any school music activities. But Stratechuk, who is Christian, said he was fed up with the district's stance on the issue. "I think what pushed me over the edge was when I found out they were banning instrumental versions of Christmas songs," said Stratechuk. "It's not as if people are saying you have to convert now." He said he sees nothing wrong with a concert that encompasses songs that represent all religions. The lawsuit argues that the district's policy denies students the opportunity to listen to, learn or perform a full range of music that is likely to be of interest to them or the audience. | ||
| Neen Citizen Username: Neen Post Number: 92 Registered: 1-2004 |
Dealing with this law suit will really help to put our tax dollars where they are needed most. I don't really care either way, but I think that if there is an issue with Christmas songs at school, then keep them at home...same as prayer and everything else that we deem personal by the division of church and state. I hope there is someway of raising only Mr. Stratechuk's taxes to cover the cost of the suit for the Board of Ed. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 587 Registered: 12-2003 |
The only way to make this ridiculous situation even more ridiculous is to mix in a lawsuit. Bravo, sir. | ||
| argon_smythe Citizen Username: Argon_smythe Post Number: 465 Registered: 5-2001 |
Apparently the best way to get the Christ back in Christmas is via a lawsuit. | ||
| mwoodwalk Citizen Username: Mwoodwalk Post Number: 239 Registered: 9-2001 |
This is a colorable lawsuit that I support simply on the grounds that the district's policy is unconstitutional. It's a close legal question whose details I won't bore the non-lawyers with now, but ultimately I conclude that the First Amendment prohibits viewpoint discrimination of the sort embodied in the district's policy. An easy way to minimize the expenditure of tax dollars is for the district to simply abandon the policy---a policy that by all accounts is NOT one supported by anything approaching a majority of the citizens of the two towns who elect the board members---thereby mooting the lawsuit. Such a result is, of course, too much to hope for. | ||
| argon_smythe Citizen Username: Argon_smythe Post Number: 466 Registered: 5-2001 |
mwoodwalk, The policy is clearly trying to avoid violation of the Constitution's establishment clause. I think it does so in an overly restrictive manner. And excluding everyone equally is arguably not the best way to foster inclusion. However, your contention that the district's policy is not supported by the majority in the two towns is not relevant. The "tyrrany of the majority" is exactly what is at issue here. One of the main purposes of the Bill of Rights is to protect the rights of the individual in the face of majority rule. The establishment clause in particular is to ensure the religion of the majority does not become the de facto religion of the state. | ||
| e roberts Citizen Username: Wnwd00 Post Number: 272 Registered: 3-2004 |
in this case though argon we are being subject to the tyranny of the minority when a very small group feel it is not right to have holiday/religous themed music. lets not forget that most people are in support of at least some relgious music and it is impossible to keep everyone happy all the time. we need to do what is best for the most amount of people or else we are subjuct to the tryanny of the minority. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 588 Registered: 12-2003 |
What percentage of people is for religious-themed holiday songs in public schools, and what percentage is against? I haven't seen any polls. Why are you assuming such a small majority is against? I think it's safe to say a significant chunk of our town is against religious-themed lawmaking, and religious-themed restrictions on marriage, and religious-themed definitions of civil rights. It wouldn't shock me to learn that a reasonable number of people thinks it's better to keep religious-themed music in church, than in public schools. | ||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 494 Registered: 4-2004 |
So the tyranny is defined by the the tyrant, not the act itself. It is diversity to embrace newer traditions as "cultural exchange" but not to continue the older,existing traditions because they offend. Forget that they predate the founding of this nation, or that they originated here through people escaping religious intolerance in Europe, or that they evolved into American traditions through expansion, war, Depression, tragedy and triumph. There is no attempt here to force religion upon anyone, simply to revel in a time of year that has been celebrated in this nation, in this state and in these 2 towns since their origins. In fact the old traditions have been built upon so that they include other faiths and other cultures, and have brought together families that were once considered non-families. They have reached out to all and created a new Tradition of tolerance and inclusion for all. Yet now, all must look ahead only for fear that the "Spirit-of-Christmas-Not-to-Come" will turn them to Pillars of Salt if they seek the Ways of the Past that long gave comfort but now "Offend". Who is being intolerant now? | ||
| argon_smythe Citizen Username: Argon_smythe Post Number: 467 Registered: 5-2001 |
The real challenge is going to be proving that some individual or set of individuals are having their rights infringed upon by the current policy of the school board. Nobody is prevented from celebrating holidays, or practicing their faith, under the current policy. Neither is anybody compelled to compromise their religious beliefs in order to obtain a music education. That said, again I feel the policy is too restrictive and reactionary, and a bit of a cop-out way to deal with diversity. What I don't understand, though, is this: I would think the churches would be happy to hold the monopoly on Christmas-themed celebrations. What a great oppportunity for them to attract people not to the school auditorium but rather to bring them into the fold of the church. Yet instead they fight for things like this. And in the commercial sector, there's actually people complaining not that Christmas has become too commercialized, but instead that they're not being marketed to specifically enough. They're actually advocating a boycott of retailers which don't specify "Christmas" in their advertising. This just doesn't make sense to me. I don't need to have my faith validated by the school board, or by Wal-Mart. Why do others? | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 282 Registered: 3-2002 |
Brett, If we are going to choose our traditions by their age, then perhaps we should defer Christian traditions in favor of Jewish ones! Not that I'm recommending this, but it seems one conclusion to your logic. My daughter had a great time celebrating New Year's Eve at her last day of school party. No harm done to anyone's religion. No one made to feel excluded. Whatever some may think, even MSO has a heavily enough Christmas flavor at this time of year that we are having to work to keep our Kindergarten kid happy in her Judaism, with Hannukah long over and the religious-commercial Christmas machine working overtime. Merry Christmas to all who celebrate it. (Including us as we visit Christian relatives). | ||
| Joan Citizen Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 4586 Registered: 5-2001 |
Andrea: The question of whether religious music should be performed in the public schools in South Orange and Maplewood has gotten so much publicity because Maplewood because this is a problem being faced by and impacting on people throughout our country. If you go the AOL discussion board on this topic, which is being discussed on another thread of MOL, you will find that the people discussing the issue there are not from Maplewood or South Orange. They are from all over the country. Yet, they are stating some of the same positions that we are and citing many of the same experiences. Religion (especially Christian fundamentalist religion) played a major part in how people voted in the last election. When a Republican President was elected, in part because he claimed to have a very strong agreement with the religious teachings of these Christian groups, some people saw it as a mandate to increase the amount of Christian influence in our schools. The Maplewwod/South Orange debate is about a school district which chose to go in the other direction. That is what makes us so special and that is one reason why we have attracted so much publicity as a result. | ||
| talk-it-up Citizen Username: Talkitup Post Number: 95 Registered: 3-2004 |
This is not about religion - christianity or judaism. I for one am tired of hearing about this issue only in the context of Christmas Carols. This issue is about placing a form of censorship on music and upholding the decision to restrict the music traditionally available to students. It is not a decision about expanding to include other music and adding on to the traditional music, but about removing it in order to correct the situation. I for one would apprediate the sharing of many forms of music from diverse cultural backgrounds. I for one am tired of hearing one religion pitting itself against another. That is not what this is about. It is about placing restrictions on art. All of the reasons have been stated previously by other parties. I am afraid we are going backwards because I do not see how this thought process could restrict itself only to music. Where would it would end. We claim tolerance and then ban music. I watched a Board of Ed Meeting on TV where a young man argued his case saying - he didn't say the words but only played the music. I felt ashamed for the whole district that we let one of our students defend himself as if before some sort of a tribunal. We the generation of the 70's let this child defend his actions by saying he "didn't say the words, so it should be alright". This sounds as if it came right out of one of those books we read back then indicating what the future would hold. Scary stuff! You the adults in charge now came from the generation that defended rights and warned of the future. So now what- - out with religious art! -out with Halloween! - out with the Holiday Vacation! - out with Martin Luther King Day (Reverand) - out with Gospel Music - out with St. Valentine's Day - out with St. Patrick's Day - out with ALL DAYS OFF FOR ALL RELIGIOUS HOLIDAYS - out with the dollar bill (In God We Trust) - out with The Pledge - out with the National Anthem (?) - out with sharing traditions or acknowledging them - out with books that refer to God or religion (?) - out with theatre that refers to God or religion - out with "a moment of silence for any reason" In a town that prides itself on diversity, on a school district that teaches tolerance...I personally DO NOT UNDERSTAND and I do not understand how anyone with or without religious beliefs could support a banning of anything in this fashion. In a time when a better focus would be on promoting kindness, sharing, tolerance, and understanding, the action being enforced is wrong. It appears this district does not practice what it preaches. It appears that the use of the word diversity is just a convenience. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 589 Registered: 12-2003 |
Schools struggling with how to "deal" with religion is nothing new. I'd love nothing more than for every public school kid to have to take a religion class, particularly since religion now plays such a significant role in the lives of nonreligious people. But good luck getting a group of teachers (and administrators, and school-board members, and -- gasp! -- parents) to agree on a curriculum. Singing a song from a religion other than yours doesn't make you more diverse, and doesn't in and of itself teach you anything. It's not an inherently educational experience. An educational experience would be to have students talk about this whole controversy in class -- share their own views, propose how they'd like to see it addressed. The notion of "tradition" as an argument just doesn't hold up. Decades ago, this country was a lot more homogenous than it is now -- particularly if you based your view on what a typical suburban school looked like. There were few or no minority students, homosexuality didn't exist yet, and we could pretty much all agree on one God. Yes, they were good times, but a lot has happened between then and now. I loathe nothing more than political correctness run amok. But in this age we live in -- where the president of our country wants to rewrite the constitution because the Bible says homosexuality is a sin -- I'm more comfortable keeping religion in my church, and out of our schools. | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 284 Registered: 3-2002 |
Cmonty...I'm with you. Let's figure out how to educate on diversity, rather than just teach the dreidel song. Diversity education is more than cultural tourism. We have to realize that we are discussing covering each other religion at the same depth as Christianity. Writing the curriculum would indeed be tough, as would be ensuring that teachers taught it evenhandedly. The dreidel song is cultural rather than religious, so it shouldn't be used as balance for anything more religious than Frosty and the 12 Days of Christmas. Quite agreed that "tradition" is a cop-out argument. By tradition, I should be less educated, less employed, more homophobic, less Jewish, less feminist and more racist than I am. Let's not go there. | ||
| Josh M. Citizen Username: Jmaxlaw Post Number: 197 Registered: 3-2004 |
Once again-- Josh's broken record will play this particular tune: What stinks here more than anything is the process by which the board went about "announcing" this policy. This had "citizen review committee" written all over it. There should have been public input and an attempt at a compromise. I don't care if this policy had been in place since the Adams Administration (J or J.Q.-- take your pick), it was new to most of us. Instead of some likely helpful dialogue, the district is going to be spending over $100,000 to defend a lawsuit... (perhaps much higher if the district wants to fight). That $100,000 could be used on other things, like educating eight illegal students from neighboring towns!!!  | ||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 495 Registered: 4-2004 |
If you don't respect and uphold the traditions of old, you can't expect any more consideration and respect for the new concepts that we try to advance. Plain and simple. It is a simple matter of respect and tolerance. One of the major reasons that this country is reviled by Muslim extremists is that we have no respect for their culture, which can be directly attributed to the fact that it isn't taught in our schools. We learn history from the perspective of Judeo-Christian Westerners and have never attempted to understand the origins or struggles of Islam. They were just the "infidels" who invaded our Holy Lands and were expelled from Spain. Now, we stand at cross purposes with them and most of us don't even know why. It is no different here if we choose to exclude Christian or Judaic cultures from our "public" curriculums. They are so inextricably connected to our history that their exclusion makes an education incomplete. The ultimate outcome of such exclusion will be distrust and resentment instead of understanding and respect. We've been there; it doesn't work and it isn't pretty. | ||
| mjc Citizen Username: Mjc Post Number: 114 Registered: 10-2004 |
Josh, at the time the policy was written (early/mid 90's?) there was considerable community input, at least from PTA/HSA reps and BOE watchers. However, I'm not sure the directive issued this fall reflects the written policy. |
