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Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7561
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 2:42 pm: | 
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Woodstock, that is for the first year. The issue with Pilots is that they are long term and if the school budget grows more quickly than the municipal budget (usually the case in this area) you are going to end up paying more unless the Pilot is structured to be phased out on a year to year basis. |
woodstock
Citizen
Username: Woodstock
Post Number: 894
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 2:58 pm: |
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dgm, here's the original discussion. Actually, it's a link to a porticular archived portion of it. But if you read the entire thread, it's a worthwhile read. Especially the dates in the first post, by Mayhewdrive. But of course, a lot has happened since then to slow things down.
http://www.southorangevillage.com/cgi-bin/show.cgi?tpc=3133&post=136030#POST1360 30
Bob, the PILOT that I saw for GC was to be stepped up over time. Not year to year, but to increase every five or so (?) years. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 1871
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 3:31 pm: |
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Wow...what a blast from the past, Woodstock.
Back in 2003, the anticipated completion dates were:
Arts Center - opening Summer 2005
Beifus - opening Summer 2005
Market - opening Fall 2005
Now that we are in 2005, what are the anticipated Completion Dates?
According to the BOT Minutes from December: http://www.southorange.org/minutes/2004/12-13-04ca.htm
Arts Center: "target date for completion is April, 2006"
Beifus: "site work being done by the middle of March, 2005" Completion Date: ?????
Market: "It is anticipated that the store will be open this time next year in time for the holidays, 2005"
Anyone want to place a bet on any of these dates?
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singlemalt
Citizen
Username: Singlemalt
Post Number: 806
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 4:05 pm: |
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To lighten the tone around here, I think it would be really funny to see someone post all of the expected dates for the projects that are coming soon!
I've been reading this board since 2000 and I would venture to guess that the Beifus site and the grocery store were to have been ready to go sometime in the year 2002! |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7564
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 5:48 pm: |
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Woodstock, still with the savings for the average homeowner at right around $100 for the first year there is prescious little room for error in these transactions.
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woodstock
Citizen
Username: Woodstock
Post Number: 895
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 11:16 pm: |
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Bob, I'm not sure if that was a real example or not, and as I said, my memory is swiss cheese . I'd be happy if a PILOT were tax-neutral. I don't need a savings. (actually, I think the savings was only around $10 total)
That said, I shouldn't even express an opinion on this, as we're looking to move out of town anyway. |
dgm
Citizen
Username: Dgm
Post Number: 226
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 7:42 am: |
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why woodstock? |
woodstock
Citizen
Username: Woodstock
Post Number: 896
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 3:21 pm: |
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Why are we moving? or why shouldn't I epxress an opinion? 
We're moving for several reasons. Taxes is a big part of it. Not just how high they are, but the disproportionate share that I pay (don't get me started on this).
Also, we live on a very steep hill, which makes it almost impossible for our children to walk or bike ride without getting into a car.
And South Orange's kindergarten day is very short, which means my wife would have to sell her store, or we'd have to hire a nanny who can drive to bring our daughter to school and/or pick her up to bring her home.
But even if those two things were easily resolved, we can get as much house in another neighborhood, and pay half the taxes we pay in South Orange. When our taxes exceeded our mortgage, we knew something had to be done.
It won't be as charming, wherever we go. And I'll definitely miss that. We had thought about moving up to Newstead. But the taxes there aren't any better than where we are, and all they're going to do is go up.
A 5% annual increase on $10,000 in taxes (in anoter town) will take 19 years to reach where our taxes are now. That's $10-$15k a year that I can spend on my kids. Or on vacations. Or college. Or save for retirement so my wife and I can retire 10 years earlier. The dollar amounts are nice to play around with, but when I started looking at what we could be doing with that money, it was really a no-brainer. |
composerjohn
Citizen
Username: Composerjohn
Post Number: 141
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 3:28 pm: |
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where are you moving, if you don't mind me asking? |
woodstock
Citizen
Username: Woodstock
Post Number: 897
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 3:42 pm: |
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I don't mind at all. We're not quite sure. Possibly Livingston or Roseland. Maybe one of the Caldwells. It's still up in the air. There's a very outside possibility that we'll leave NJ altogether Neither of us grew up here (I grew up in NYC, making fun of NJ - sorry...), so we're not tied to it. But most likely we'll be someplace in Livingston.
Like I said, we'll lose a lot of the charm of a small town like this, but considering the savings, it's tough to make a case for staying. |
Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7577
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 4:39 pm: |
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I know where you are coming from and we will be leaving Maplewood in the not to distant future. Thanks to the reval and normal tax increases our taxes are more than double what they were when we purchased our house 15 years ago and have been more than our mortgage for the last five years.
In a couple of years down the line retirement is in the cards and the $10k we can save by moving is money we would prefer to spend on other things. And we find it hard to justify just the two of us living in a ten room house.
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Bobkat
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 7578
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 4:41 pm: |
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I know where you are coming from and we will be leaving Maplewood in the not to distant future. Thanks to the reval and normal tax increases our taxes are more than double what they were when we purchased our house 15 years ago and have been more than our mortgage for the last five years.
In a couple of years down the line retirement is in the cards and the $10k in taxes we can save by moving is money we would prefer to spend on other things. Also, we find it hard to justify just the two of us living in a ten room house.
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marion cobretti
Citizen
Username: Marion_cobretti
Post Number: 56
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 9:25 pm: |
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i move for a vote of no confidence. |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 362
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 10:01 am: |
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Well, we are here for the duration...the taxes hurt , but we'd rather live here in our current house than trade up to somewhere less convenient to our lives, less cultural and diverse, etc. We find these two towns very special and feel lucky to be able to afford the cost of living here.
I'm making a vote of confidence for MSO and those of us who choose to live in the two towns.
Having said that...financial reversals could drive us out if they occured. Deciding to become a one-job family would probably drive us out, but is looking unlikely. Loosing belief in our school system could drive us out. But those three risks would be true anywhere we might choose to live.
If it became clear that we wouldn't ever have a Midtown NYC commute again, we would have to think about whether to keep paying the Midtown Direct premium, but would probably choose to stay.
I wish those of you who need to leave, or choose to leave and allocate your money differently, the best of luck. I'm here to stay, to revel in the good side, work to improve the bad side, and consider the town I live in as part of my long term identity, rather than a suit of clothes to be shifted at will. I grew up moving every 5 years or so, and plan to raise children rooted in one place if we can pull it off! (hoping I don't have to run for BOT myself to make it work ;-) ) |
South Orange Alliance for Redevelopment
Citizen
Username: Soar
Post Number: 23
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 9:33 pm: |
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An important question to ask regarding any tax abatement or PILOT programs is this: If, as the BOT states, that South Orange's redevelopment efforts are a shining example to other municipalities, then why woudld we even consider giving a developer any tax break at all? We have been told that there are a number of developers interested in South Orange...South Orange Avneue is the best place to develop...successful businesspeople/developers would love the opportunity to be on SO Avenue...WHY are we giving anything away at all? |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 1701
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 3:18 pm: |
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Shelley: Be more specific. Which BOT member made the statement that you refer to in your opening statement?
Livingston and Montclair have both given PILOT's to get projects developed. The point is that we have to compete for developers and their showing an interest is just one part of the process. They are going to build in the towns that offer the best opportunity for a profit. I think S. Orange is wonderful, but I know that our tax base is higher than most so while we don't have to give anything away, we do have to work with developers and part of that is being willing to negotiate even if that means a tax abatement/PILOT agreement.
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Josh M.
Citizen
Username: Jmaxlaw
Post Number: 215
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 6:17 pm: |
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Another point that needs to be made:
How in the world did we get here in the first place? How was it that at this point in the process, the developers were still demanding a 30 year abatement? Further-- how is it that the level of communication between the Village powers-that-be and the developers could be this poor? I mean-- was the subject of financing and Village involvement never brought up?
This is another shining example of amatuer hour at Village Hall. If they are against an abatement for this property-- they should have not wasted the developers time and been firm on this. If they were considering an abatement-- they should've been clear as to what they were willing to offer.
Of course, a simple RFP (Request for Proposal) process would've cleared all this up. It's simple. Tell the public what the parameters are, and open up the bidding. There might even be, gasp, a competition for the property.
Calabrese, Gross & Co. have proven again and again they cannot handle redevelopment. At this juncture in the Village's history-- that is bad news. Very bad news. |
singlemalt
Citizen
Username: Singlemalt
Post Number: 808
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 7:21 pm: |
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Josh,
One of the most articulate posts ever in the S.O. thread. Well said! |
Shelley Stile
Citizen
Username: Sstile
Post Number: 42
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 7:58 pm: |
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I agree. RFP's would have been the perfect way to go. Even now. As far as South orange being a so-called shing example of redevelopment, I do not remember who said it but there have been commendations mentioned in the News Record for awards given to SO for their redevelopment efforts. Why, I'll never know! |
Josh M.
Citizen
Username: Jmaxlaw
Post Number: 216
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 4:15 pm: |
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The accomodations are all attached to the Gaslight Commons development as well as the train station revitalization.
I don't care what awards were awarded years ago-- what's happening now is absolute nonsense. Period.
Politically-- I wonder if this was done just so certain people can say they rejected abatements? This is an election year... |
doublea
Supporter
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 889
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 4:22 pm: |
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Josh - I read it the other way. Mary Theroux evidently did not think the deal was as bad as the other trustees. Steve Steglitz, who evidently is not running for reelection, turned the deal down. I thought Mary's reaction suggested maybe she wanted to get the deal signed, while Steve could afford to get a better deal, and not worry about the politics. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 1892
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 4:25 pm: |
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Josh,
Although, ironically according to the News Record last week, Ms. Theroux said she "absolutely had some concerns" about the proposed developer's agreement, but was "significantly less dissatisfied" with it than other trustees.
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1847&dept_id=484491&newsid=13931684&PAG=4 61&rfi=9 |
ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 3359
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 9:20 am: |
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she seems so crazy, how does she keep getting elected? I hope you guys have some good people running this year. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 1897
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 9:47 am: |
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ffof,
Just to clarify, she was only ELECTED once. She was initially APPOINTED to the BOT and she then ran for election in May 2001 in a dirty campaign filled with slander & libel against her opponents.
Hopefully, the residents of the town have seen enough and vote for change in May 2005. |
Josh M.
Citizen
Username: Jmaxlaw
Post Number: 218
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 4:08 pm: |
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I did not see the original article... I would like to rescind my speculation as unfounded and apologize to Ms. Theroux, even though I still feel she's a walking conflict of interest. |
Marc Bromfeld
Citizen
Username: Time4change
Post Number: 3
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 1:24 am: |
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Time for a Change!
As I read through the pages of emails and topics, I find a common thread between the downtown development sites (SOPAC, supermarket, Beifus, Vose, etc). I think it is fair to say that not much gets accomplished, however a ton is said about what will be accomplished in the near future. I have been a SO resident for 3 years and I am comfortable stating that there has been no significant progress made in the downtown area in 3 YEARS!
One other thorn keeps sticking out to me......I am quite amazed at the CFO/Treasurer (Mr. Gross) situation. I have been in business for quite some time and manage close to a $40MM annual budget for my assigned portfolio. If I offered someone the deal as it has been explained and as I understand it; I would be fired on the spot.
What seems necessary here is change in leadership.
Not sure what the alternative (leadership) is, but I do know the ONLY way to change the leadership is to get out and VOTE!
We need a strong candidate(s) with a plan to get things done. Things can get done in the real world.
I understand that these (Village President and Trustees) are non salaried positions, however the key to being a good leader is knowing what you are good at and resourcing the best possible individuals to assist you in getting the job done. No shame in resourcing, in fact it is the proper way to conduct business.
That said, looking at the current state of affairs in SO, it is most definatly time for a change.
PLEASE VOTE on election day.
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