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Back in Switzerland!
Supporter
Username: Bets
Post Number: 1940
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 12:37 am: |     |
Bets does a complete turnaround in a blatant suck-up to her potential future moderator-status-grantor:
quote:I think they can exchange equal apologies. LL for being insensitive to Catholics and Pizzaz for being too quick to judge.
Now that's REALLY what I meant to say! That and NO HTML!!!
grovel grovel grovel |
Back in Switzerland!
Supporter
Username: Bets
Post Number: 1941
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 12:40 am: | |
Dave the Supreme's message to our beloved Township Attorney:
quote:When you find a way around the Constitution, let us know. In the meantime, keep hammering away at Catholic institutions. It's sure to help your cause. Last time a nation started to do private land grabs it was 1935 in Germany. Freedom of religion is important and some sensitivity toward neighbors goes a long way.
Scary, isn't it? |
Lucy
Supporter
Username: Lucy
Post Number: 33
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 10:03 am: | |
OMG-d, I just read above. People who purport not to be prejudice come across as uninfomed. I wonder who she learned the effluence of her language from? What is it, the water in town? Or do some believe that they are raised to a level above others? Can't we just teach our kids to be more tolerant or will we just be left with a lot of real scary people.
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Grspring
Citizen
Username: Grspring
Post Number: 21
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 1, 2005 - 3:47 pm: | |
Nick, I found this part interesting:
"Another thing that troubles me is that the university stated that no group can be formed based solely on sexual orientation."
Does this mean the priesthood should be open to women? |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 727
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 1, 2005 - 6:04 pm: | |
That would be by gender, not sexual orientation. There is a diference. |
Kenney
Citizen
Username: Kenney
Post Number: 605
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 1, 2005 - 6:28 pm: | |
If I were pizzaz, i would get a restraining order against soda--something is terribly wrong with this guy. |
Nicholas Holmes
Citizen
Username: Downthedoor
Post Number: 11
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 1, 2005 - 8:16 pm: | |
Grspring-- When you quote a post, please include a whole sentence as to not change the meaning of the quote. You should have quoted:
"Another thing that troubles me is that the university stated that no group can be formed based solely on sexual orientation (the reason for denying the group in the first place), then the university goes on to propose a group solely based on sexual orientation, as long as it is under the powers of the administration."
As you can see, what you quoted, and what I originally posted have two different meanings.
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Joan
Supporter
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 5850
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 8:49 am: | |
A few comments on the original issue raised in this thread.
The question of whether a university-sponsored (i.e. receiving student activity funding from the University) organization which advocates a life style directly opposed to that of the parent organization which sponsors the university should be permitted to exist on campus seems to be the central issue here.
No one has posted any evidence to suggest that SHU is denying admission to students on the basis of their having a different personal philoposophy or life style from that advocted by the Catholic Church. Nor, has anyone suggested that SHU, as a Catholic institution, is looking to impose its philosophy on South Orange or any of our other surrounding communities.
You or I may not agree with SHU's decision to deny this group a right to official student organization status but I believe it is the right of the University to make this decision.
Similarly, even though human rights law permits church-sponsored institutions such as SHU to uphold their established doctrine even though said doctrine is opposed to existing human rights law, I believe the State and/or Federal Government would be within their right to withhold any and all government aid from such an institution should they choose to do so since that institution would be officially advocating policies different from that of its sponsoring organization.
Question for the SHU students participating on this thread: Has SHU prohibited members of TRUTH from meeting on or off campus but without official university recognition or funding? |
Mr Spock
Citizen
Username: Mrspock
Post Number: 4
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 11:34 am: | |
Reason for Soda starting this thread:
SHU doesn't permit dissenting voices.
Reason for Soda/LL leaving MOL:
MOL permits dissenting voices.
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Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 1591
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 11:39 am: | |
Wow did this thread turn nasty.
I think I can see where Nancy is coming from. She's not against people who are gay, but it bothers her that as a community we are inclusive and accepting to EVERYONE; yet SHU, who wants to be more a part of our community (or depending on how one looks at it -is expecting our community to give them more then we already do) refuses to acknowledge an organization of GLT students who want to help promote understanding and acceptance. (I may be wrong)
What I don't understand is all the attacking. I think her original post about her beliefs and feelings towards SHU and Catholics may have been misread.
For the record, I was raised Catholic, but I do not subscribe to many of the teachings of the Catholic Church. For example, the church is againt homosexuals - I am not, the church doesn't believe in birth control -maybe if they changed that line of thinking there'd be a lot less unwanted and abused children in the world; the chruch doesn't allow It's religous leaders (Priest and Nuns) to marry -why not? Every other Faith does. There are other examples, but I'm safer not sharing those!
I attended SHU, not because it was a Catholic School, but because I was tired of living on campus where I first went to college. There are however, a lot of students who attend SHU because it is a Catholic School. They expect it to follow the beliefs of the Catholic Faith.
While I believe it's wrong the university won't allow this group, it is within it's right.
John, what is it exactly LL said that upset you? As a Catholic (meaning you) , doesn't it bother you more SHU is so intolerable, then LL being upset they are?
Think I'll go swimming now... |
Joan
Supporter
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 5851
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 11:41 am: | |
Mr. Spock:
Based on the information posted to this thread, I don't agree with you. It would be more accurate to state that Seton Hall doesn't permit dissenting voices which may be construed as speaking on behalf of Seton Hall. No one has suggested that SHU is opposed to private discussions or even discussions held within the classroom in which viewpoints other than that of the Catholic Church as channeled by SHU are examined and even advocated.
If you or anyone else has information to the contrary, I wish you would add it to this discussion.
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Mr Spock
Citizen
Username: Mrspock
Post Number: 5
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 11:49 am: | |
True Joan, but I was referring to why Soda began the thread rather than the reality of what goes on at SHU. He lacks logic. |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 783
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 12:42 pm: | |
At risk of being tarred anti-Catholic and run off the boards...
I don't think any of us questioned Seton Hall's right to exist as a Catholic university.
Some of us did point out that a university is not identical to a church in questions of the separation of church and state, especially given the large amounts of federal aid received.
Some of us did point out that we are uncomfortable trying to figure out how to improve town-gown relations with the Hall in the face of its positions on a number of issues. When I read these positions, my interest in improved town-gown relations fades somewhat. To say that is not to be against Catholics practicing Catholicism, but is to wonder about the role of the organization in the broader town.
Simplistic accusations of catholic-bashing don't help. Diversity is more complicated than that, and this thread clearly isn't going to help any of us sort through the issues.
Depresses me to see so much nastiness and childishess on all sides. I think of this town, and this board, as places where we work hard on the more complicated issues of being a diverse and interesting town, not as places of provincial witch hunts. |
Joan
Supporter
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 5852
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 1:43 pm: | |
Susan:
College towns have town/gown issues which extend far beyond whether the college in question has close ties to a particular Church and as a result has acknowledged that the Church's policies on a wide range of life style and mores issues are also the official policies of said university.
Seton Hall is a large university which occupies a significant amount of land within the borders of South Orange. It's student body who reside in the college's dormatories represent a significant portion of the South Orange resident population, especially during the portion of the year when most classes are in session.
The Seton Hall dormatory fire demonstrated the dependance that Seton Hall has on the Village of South Orange to provide fire protection. The university also places demands on most other municipal services. Not only doesn't Seton Hall pay property taxes but it has been expanding the amount of South Orange property it owns within recent years.
In the most recent BOT election, SHU students demonstrated just how large a voting block they represented. It is entirely possible that one or more SHU students might seek election to the BOT and win election as a result of the strength of that block.
SHU students also influence the types of businesses which are likely to exist on the main commercial avenues surrounding the university.
These are legitimate concerns which you should feel comfortable discussing and working to resolve even if you don't consider the impact of a large institution within the borders of South Orange, whose citizens for the most part have a fundamentally different outlook on a variety of social/moral/religious issues than a significant portion of the rest of the community to be a topic you feel safe discussing. |
Sheena Collum SHU
Citizen
Username: Sheena_collum
Post Number: 224
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 2:17 pm: | |
Joan,
If you go back in the archives of this thread - you'll see about a 10 page post from me on the ruling itself.
People still don't seem to understand that on most part, the University is very accepting of diversity.
In regards to this group, I posted the memorandum offered by the Division of Student Affairs.
The group would get funding, can meet to discuss issues, can plan programs, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
The difference with this group, is that because it is such a controversial topic (and believe it or not, once the group was proposed, parents flew to the University to complain) the University offered to put it as a "special relationship" with the Vice-President's Office in Student Affairs.
As I stated before, while I still believe it's unfair that this group cannot operate under the same guidelines as other clubs, it's hard to say - this hurts our town-gown relations.
Maybe the better place to start is the Vatican, seeing as though we're one of a handful of DIOCESAN universities, and not it's students and direct SHU community who has been working on building a stronger S.O. community.
Just some thoughts... |
Joan
Supporter
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 5853
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 2:57 pm: | |
Sheena:
Thanks for supporting my assumption re: SHU's relationship with the gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender student group.
Unfortunately, anything and everything, including perceived differences in tolerance and diversity attitudes between the student and the year-round resident population of South Orange can and will have an impact in the striving for improved town/gown relations. Personally, I think there are other fundamental issues which are going to pose greater problems but the wide range of attitudes regarding this aspect of getting university and the town to work together more effectively has to be recognized and dealt with if this plan is to succeed. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 1596
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 5:38 pm: | |
Susan-
I agree with your Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 12:42 pm post and have a strange feeling it was a similar message LL why trying to convay.
(This thread is giving me a major headache) |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 1597
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 5:42 pm: | |
Hi Shena-
So you're saying you agree SHU is wrong? And the
Unv will recognize the GLT group, but not in the same way as other groups?
(btw -the boys asked about wed. they want to know about inviting their friends)
>>>As I stated before, while I still believe it's unfair that this group cannot operate under the same guidelines as other clubs, it's hard to say - this hurts our town-gown relations. <<< |
wendy
Supporter
Username: Wendy
Post Number: 1411
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 10:11 pm: | |
LL said she didn't like (ok she said intolerable - but we all know LL) the fact of a major institution with tentacles reaching far into SO imposing its doctrine on a student group. Three things then happened which in my opinion is why LL said goodbye. I do hope she says hello again real soon, btw.
One, Pizzaz said that she has been intolerant in the past and didn't come up with any examples of this.
Two, someone asked if she would be comfortable if a synagogue would be ok with Jesus on a cross in front of the ark. That was bizarre because I would bet more than even money that if Seton Hall were Shalom Hall - Ultra Orthadox - LL would have major issues with not allowing, for example, study groups composed of both men and woman, if that's where the Ultra Orthodox would take it.
Three, Dave opined that apologies are in order on both sides and called LL's views extremist.
Hope I summed it up ok (this from memory from last night and a few vodka and tonics in between) - hope it resolves real soon. I would surely miss LL and Soda in this community. |
gotcha
Citizen
Username: Gotcha
Post Number: 39
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 11:25 pm: | |
From the (catholic) Fordham University club listings
Rainbow Alliance
A Gay/Straight Alliance
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The club’s main purpose shall be the following: 1) to support all students as they integrate their sexual orientation into their personhood, 2) to promote an open and tolerant environment at Fordham University for all sexual orientations through education, 3) to support friends, family members, and other allies of gay, lesbian and bisexual people and 4) to be respectful of Catholic teachings on human sexuality.
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Sheena Collum SHU
Citizen
Username: Sheena_collum
Post Number: 225
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 4, 2005 - 12:22 am: | |
I don't agree with anything that's not completely equal.
Like I said, I've been advocating for this group for 3 years now and pretty confident I know the ins and outs of it.
It's hard to respond to people who think the University won't let the group meet or do anything.
A lot of steps have been taken from the administration to try and do ALL that they can without overstepping their obligation to uphold the values of a catholic institution.
The research that has gone into this topic is neverending. You'll find tons of Catholic schools that have a gay student group. We're different - one being that we're a diocesan school.
I know that for me personally, I didn't come to SHU for any religious reason but some students have. At one of our Student Senate meetings, one of our students (speaking against this group) made a comparison between the gay lifestyle and necrophelia (sp?). Yes, very extreme but some students here feel that way.
I can respect their opinions as human beings but I don't have to agree with them.
In the mean time the University, SGA, and admin will continue to work with this group to make sure their goals are accomplished.
I know these answers sounds a little politically correct, but I'm trying to be fair to the University.
No, I can't agree with anything I feel is an injustice but I can't deny that the University has been as supportive as they can within their own guidelines.
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Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 6785
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Monday, July 4, 2005 - 10:02 am: | |
Wendy, I never called LL's views extremist. I was actually referring to myself in that post. link
I simply thought there was room for some sensitivity and apologies on both sides. Still do. I also realize sometimes a break from MOL is a good thing. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 1604
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 4, 2005 - 2:02 pm: | |
Sheena-
What is necrophelia?
(Hoping I'm not sorry for asking) |
gotcha
Citizen
Username: Gotcha
Post Number: 41
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 4, 2005 - 2:08 pm: | |
nec·ro·phil·i·a (nkr-fl-) KEY also nec·rophi·lism (n-krf-lzm, n-) KEY
NOUN:
Erotic attraction to or sexual contact with corpses
Obsessive fascination with death and corpses.
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something witty
Citizen
Username: Buckneja
Post Number: 40
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 4, 2005 - 2:31 pm: | |
Maybe that'll be the thread killer... (pun INTENDED) |
Sheena Collum SHU
Citizen
Username: Sheena_collum
Post Number: 227
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 1:22 am: | |
oh goodness gracious
I was actually gonna say - www.dictionary.com
but... thanks Gotcha, lol  |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 1615
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 9:47 am: | |
gotcha-
I knew I'd regret asking!
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wendy
Supporter
Username: Wendy
Post Number: 1416
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 10:18 am: | |
OK Dave. I thought you were talking about others besides or in addition to yourself. In any event, I think the massive institution LL was referring to was Seton Hall, not the Catholic Church. Clearly SHU is not entirely a proxy for the Church.
We of course disagree about where lines were crossed. That's life. (It was a pleasure, btw, watching you dine the other night. I vicariously really enjoyed that meal.) |
gotcha
Citizen
Username: Gotcha
Post Number: 53
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 10:38 pm: | |
An editorial...
Mixed message for Seton Hall gays
Sunday, July 10, 2005
By JAMES AHEARN
SETON HALL'S refusal to recognize a gay-rights student organization is not as clear-cut as it first appears.
Seton Hall is a Roman Catholic university, the first diocesan university in the country, in fact, founded a century and a half ago by Bishop James Bayley of Newark. He named it after his aunt, Mother Elizabeth Ann Seton, the first person born in America to be declared a saint.
It is a big, bustling institution today, with an enrollment of 10,000, a handsome campus in South Orange and a respected law school in Newark.
Last year a student, Anthony Romeo, filed a lawsuit seeking to force the university to recognize a gay and lesbian organization he was setting up. He called it Trust, Respect, Unity at The Hall. The acronym was TRUTH. The university had turned thumbs down, which was not surprising. The Roman Catholic Church regards homosexual conduct as sinful.
It is entitled to do so, but when Seton Hall asked a judge to dismiss the suit, the judge declined, letting the matter go forward. That was unexpected. Seton Hall appealed. Last month a three-judge panel ruled unanimously for the university.
In a 16-page decision written by Superior Court Judge James Petrella, the appellate court held that Seton Hall was a bona fide religious organization. That meant the university was legally exempt from the New Jersey law forbidding discrimination, a law that includes sexual orientation as a protected category.
The judges then held that Seton Hall was within its rights in refusing to approve a group that was not in keeping with the university's "values and mission." Their reasoning was logical and predictable.
But there was more to it than that. Here's where it gets interesting.
Romeo, the youthful plaintiff, had decided to attend Seton Hall in part because of an assurance he had seen in its student handbook. It said the university did not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. This amounted to a contract, contended Romeo, represented by two lawyers who argued his case free of charge.
Not so, Judge Petrella wrote. The student handbook was not a binding contract that Seton Hall was obligated to honor. Even if it were, it gave students a right only to form groups that were "respectful of the values and mission of the university," a category that did not include gay-rights advocacy.
But again, that did not settle the matter.
Thomas White, Seton Hall assistant vice president for public relations, says that Romeo is no longer enrolled and that TRUTH has disbanded. However, there are other gay and lesbian groups on campus, and Seton Hall is willing to work with them, short of extending formal recognition, White says.
In other words, if they stay in the closet and don't get too uppity, the university will not run them off campus. In a newspaper interview, White spoke vaguely of "educational programs" and "providing funding for some events."
In fact, Seton Hall had offered such a deal to Romeo, and he had turned it down because it would have amounted to accepting second-class status. White, upbeat and cheery, says the appellate decision "allows us to continue our dialogue and dedication to creating a welcome and productive environment for all of our students, including our gay and lesbian students."
Think about that for a minute. He is implying that Seton Hall recognizes that some students are disposed to conduct that the church denounces as morally wrong. Nevertheless, the university will not try to get these young people to repent and change, as you would expect a religious organization to do. Rather, it will accept their orientation and work with them on typical campus concerns, much as it works with the debate team, the African Students Association and the Women's Resource Center.
As for the legal definition of a contract, the judges are better qualified than I to decide whether a provision in a student handbook qualifies. But when a university, particularly a religion-based university, recognizes that some applicants and enrolled students are homosexual and promises not to discriminate against them, that is at least a moral commitment, the sort that you would expect an ethical institution to honor.
The university says that no person can be adequately described by "a reductionist reference to his or her sexual orientation." In other words, homosexuals, like heterosexuals, are more than the sum of their sexual inclinations. Granted, but young Romeo was defining himself as gay and seeking recognition as such, just as black women have joined in a campus chapter of the National Council of Negro Women.
For Seton Hall, the distinction is this: "No organization based solely upon sexual orientation may receive formal university recognition." I infer that it is only homosexual orientation that cannot qualify for recognition. If heterosexual students, male and female, were to form a chaste prenuptial Cana club, the university would welcome them.
The nub of the problem here is that Seton Hall is an avowedly religious institution and Catholic doctrine holds homosexuality to be sinful. The university nevertheless does not deny entry to gays and lesbians or try to change their orientation once they are admitted. To do either would be politically incorrect. They are free to apply, but they will not be free as students to seek acceptance of their lifestyles and sexual practices.
James Ahearn is a contributing editor and former managing editor of The Record.
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