| Author |
Message |
    
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 1146
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 1:30 pm: | 
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I was walking by the sign at Cameron Field this morning, and noticed a couple of things. The sign says no picnicking. Yet there are picnic tables between the ball field and the pool (under the trees). It also says the park closes at dusk. Yet there are lights at the ballfield, and I'm sure little league plays after dusk.
Now, I'm not opposed to any of this - playing in the park after dusk or picnicking. But whay are they prohibited in the first place?
I also noticed that the little bird that always chases after me when I walk past the tennis courts was not there. Maybe he flew North for the summer. |
mjc
Citizen
Username: Mjc
Post Number: 716
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 1:42 pm: |
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"Why are they prohibited?" Who knows?
Rastro, I've always laughed at the signs in SO parks because they prohibit most everything, including loitering, which I always thought was the purpose of a park....
As to your specific points:
I think the picnic tables are for the summer day camp run by the town. I don't think there are usually tables there?
"Closes at dusk" - I saw a police officer asking people to leave Floods Hill and the bocce area around 9 last night, so maybe it's enforced except for scheduled events? (or maybe playing under lights delays dusk??)
Could be that little bird's nest is now empty? How long has s/he been chasing you? S/he's been chasing me, too, the last couple of weeks, but I haven't been there this week.
happy park use!
MC |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 1153
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 4:13 pm: |
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mjc, I also don't meanto single out South oraneg. I've visited parks in other towns, and the things they restrict makes you wonder what they DO allow in the parks.
I was wondering about the picnic table mainly because I saw some garbage on them this morning, and thought about why they might restrict picnicking. The rest I just sort of thought about as I read the sign more.
I think the bird has been chasing me for about 3 weeks. But I also realized I was late today, so she (I assume it was a mom) may have been in another part of her daily routine, and didn't have time for me  |
Montrose13
Citizen
Username: Montrose13
Post Number: 4
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 4:28 pm: |
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Picnicking--I thought it was prohibited in all SO parks and it should be. I saw the picnic tables by the duck pond on Sunday...so of course there is garbage in the park. Doesn't the SOPD keep tabs on this kind of activity--they used to. |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 978
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 5:26 pm: |
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Yes. Parks are there to look at from a distance. The idea of someone spreading out a blanket for lunch, tossing a football, or -- heaven forbid -- walking a dog, just doesn't seem to fit with the whole idea of a "park." |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 756
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 6:32 pm: |
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The kids in the summer park program definitely eat lunch in the parks as part of the program. Why more general picnicing would be off-limits is beyond me. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 1528
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 10:39 pm: |
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I use to see plenty of people eating in the park when I was little. Many times there would be older people or families with young children sitting on the benches by the duck pond eating sandwhiches. They'd also be feeding the ducks.
I guess they frown upon people sitting on a blanket reading too. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 1160
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 12:09 am: |
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cmonty, that's actually why i raised all this. Not to get anyone to enforce the "rules," but to point out their absurdity. |
Minimalist
Citizen
Username: Minimalist
Post Number: 28
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 12:59 am: |
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Hey all,
Ducks, of course, shouldn't be fed.
Maybe these are more of those "selectively enforced" rules that I mentioned in another thread, you know, that are only enforced against people that aren't liked. Of course, things like this NEVER get abused, and are NEVER used to, say, discriminate/profile/etc.
If the rules are there they should be enforced across the board, all the time.
If they're not, they should be rescinded.
Anything else is just asking for trouble. The "banning smoking in parks" rule that Aunt was clamoring for in another thread is another one of these. |
Old and Gray
Citizen
Username: Pastmyprime
Post Number: 145
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 8:18 am: |
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I think SOPD has bigger things going on then park violations. |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 760
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 9:11 am: |
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Actually, they enforce the ban on feeding the ducks..my mother-in-law and daughter found this out years ago! |
Minimalist
Citizen
Username: Minimalist
Post Number: 35
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 9:13 am: |
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old and gray,
Does the SOPD enforce the park rules? I never mentioned the police. And if your attitude is that there's always something better for the people in charge to be doing other than enforcing rules, then why have the rules? Rules are mostly meaningless unless they're enforced.
And if you selectively enforce them, which is what ends up happening, that's when you see bias rear it's ugly head. "Unenforced" rules/laws are a big part of this problem.
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Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 695
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 10:50 am: |
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As I remember, the "No Picnicking" ordinance was passed because groups began setting up charcoal grills and using the parks for massive barbecues to the exclusion of others. However, the ordinance (intentionally?) failed to establish guidelines as to what constituted "picnicking" so that it could be selectively enforced when the dreaded "outsiders" came to town. The operating method of choice was to have the police remove or cite "violators" identified by officials under the guise of enforcement. But local groups such as the S.O. Day Camp or Senior Circle or Cougar Soccer were left alone because they "received permission".
Nobody wanted to see Village Parks turned into South Mountain Reservation, but this ordinance has always been vague and arbitrary. And it's selective enforcement over the years has been discriminatory and shameful.
Picnicking is what parks are for; groups of a specified size (20 or more?), use of grills or other apparatus, and other large-scale accomodations should require advance permits or permission. But a large family or other group that spreads a blanket and shares sandwiches together should be free to do so without fear of persecution.
Many of the same geniuses who authored the picnicking ordinance used to complain about the Latino men who played soccer on Flood's Hill every Sunday night, and attempted to have the police chase them off. It was decided that they were "outsiders" using our fields without authorization. In fact, most lived and/or worked in South Orange and had only one day off to play. I know because occasionally they would let some of us play, and they were very nice guys.
Much of this transpired ten or more years ago, and the officials responsible have since left office. I would like to believe that our current elected officials have evolved beyond such misuses of power. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 1162
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 11:03 am: |
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I didn't mean to stir up the pot with this, and I hope that enforcement is not stepped up on these items.
I just found it curious that the parks seemed designed specifically for the things that were restricted (e.g. lights for after-dusk play, picnic tables for <gasp> picnicking).
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mjc
Citizen
Username: Mjc
Post Number: 720
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 11:03 am: |
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Brett W - There are still Latino guys playing soccer on Floods Hill, often on weekdays after work (and after Cougar or other kids' soccer). I don't know about Sundays. I think it was some of them who were being "moved along" by the police the other evening, but usually they seem to be playing and enjoying without interference. (I don't mind if people are asked to wind up group activities in the park around 9 pm, since there are people living across the street and it's pretty dark anyway. I'm glad they're apparently no longer being hassled earlier and are able to make good use of the park.) |
SO Refugee
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 571
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 11:11 am: |
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I'm just curious what is more important to the SOPD...
it's obviously not -
(a) children riding their bikes without helmets
(b) reducing the number of speeders on our streets
(c) monitoring the failure to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks
If not issues like these...what do they do? |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 8895
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 11:11 am: |
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LOL, I remember lining the soccer fields on Saturday or Sunday morning for the afternoon soccer games and trying to kick the Hispanic guys off the fields while I lined them. Everyone was very pleasent, but sometimes they continued to play while I was working. This got a little dicey when I was lining the 18 yard box and impossible when I was lining the goalie box.  |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 697
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 11:13 am: |
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MJC- good to hear. It always bothered me that those guys got ejected when most of them worked hard all week and looked forward to their games. The Sunday night games were a regular thing until they got tossed. Even the cops hated doing so, but their hands were tied. |
Minimalist
Citizen
Username: Minimalist
Post Number: 37
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 11:14 am: |
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On your point (b), I personally have witnessed a SO officer sit off of walton near the park there, and have witnessed him stopping at least 8 people over the past two months. I doubt he's giving warnings. And that's just when I happen to be going by.
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 7976
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 11:30 am: |
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I think ridiculous rules like this are to give the police leeway to use their own judgement and prejudice whenever they want to. They could almost make a "no breathing" rule and choose not to enforce it until there's someone they don't like.
I'm not speaking of SO police in particular. I have no beef with them. It's just a trend I have seen all over.
mjc, very insightful to point out that loitering is the point of a park!  |
SouthOrangeNanny
Citizen
Username: Sonanny
Post Number: 41
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 11:37 am: |
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wow i had no idea that we couldn't picnic at the park..i take my carges there at least once a week and we alway put out a blanket and have lunch or even just a snack...i understand the reasons behind it but it does take away from my idea of going to the park...bummer |
Minimalist
Citizen
Username: Minimalist
Post Number: 38
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 11:38 am: |
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Tom,
Sounds like we agree on this point. The only thing I'd say (and I'm not saying you're saying this, it's a little unclear) is that a lot of times things like this are passed without malice, people really think they're doing the right thing. It's only later, in use, where it becomes apparent that there's a problem.
However, the notion that having unenforced laws on the books is a doubleplusungood thing has been around for a while. People forget.
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Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 1164
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 12:40 pm: |
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SONanny, I wouldn't stop picnicking in the park with the kids. I can't imagine the police will harass you for eating and sitting down. I believe a picnic in this sense is an organized function, not just spreading a blanket and having a sandwich. |
Montrose13
Citizen
Username: Montrose13
Post Number: 5
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 12:57 pm: |
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The problem with picnicking in the SO parks is that it does get like South Mountain Reservation when large groups of 10-20 *(and larger) people come in, set up grills and take over. Often, these people are not SO residents, sometimes they are. One of the reasons why picnicking isn't allowed is that garbage left behind attracts vermin and that creates a health hazard. Sorry, I always call SOPD when there large picnic groups--they make a mess and they are not supposed to be picnicking in the SO parks. A sandwich and a drink box is a different matter altogether however. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 7983
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 1:01 pm: |
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I suppose we need a new word for organized, large-group parties that have food. Or the rule should be worded more clearly. |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 700
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 3:03 pm: |
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My only point is to refine the ordinance and enforce it equitably. As far as people who are not South Orange residents, doen't anyone in this town ever go to Central Park in New York or Boston Commons? Ever been to Golden Gate Park or Coit Park in San Francisco? If so, did anyone ask you to leave or even check you for identification? Of course not! What City Park is strictly for City residents only? |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 7987
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 3:06 pm: |
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Perhaps Montrose13's point was that non-residents are less likely to take good care of the park. But yes, it's awfully bad form to want to restrict a public park to residents. |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 980
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 3:19 pm: |
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It would be impossible for a group of "nonresidents" (love that clever code, by the way -- something tells me we're not talking about people from Short Hills) to ever "take over" one of our parks. Even the smallest park. And certainly not the giant area around Cameron Field.
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redY67
Citizen
Username: Redy67
Post Number: 2476
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 3:24 pm: |
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I think we need to get to the important point, what happened to the bird that used to chase Rastro? |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 704
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 3:28 pm: |
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Turns out he wasn't a resident and he was tossed. |
Montrose13
Citizen
Username: Montrose13
Post Number: 6
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 4:13 pm: |
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Sorry no code here...there have been times when picnicking groups have indeed taken over our parks. Many times picnicking groups set up their bbqs in the playground area of Grove park essentially making it impossible for my kids to play there on a Sunday afternoon. Sorry, they are South Orange parks, our taxes do maintain them and we residents have a right to enjoy them. Why should we let people who don't live here trash them with their large picnics? Can they come bbq on your front yard? |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 7993
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 4:16 pm: |
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Montrose13, I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but perhaps I was mistaken. Public property is for the public, whether or not they are from your town, country, or planet. The public is the public.
People who use the park should play by the rules. The police have the right and duty to enforce the rules. They should do so without regard to who lives where.
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AntoninaKC
Citizen
Username: Antoninakc
Post Number: 32
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 4:38 pm: |
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Am I completely retarded in thinking that public parks should be available for everyone to use? Did I miss something? The "I pay taxes for the park in my town, so NO ONE else should be able to use it!!!" speech is getting old and quite selfish! |
Stevef
Citizen
Username: Stevef
Post Number: 50
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 4:40 pm: |
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Once more should do it. |
AntoninaKC
Citizen
Username: Antoninakc
Post Number: 37
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 4:40 pm: |
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haha, posting delays, apparently |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 983
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 4:49 pm: |
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Montrose, I live in Montrose, and am in (or at least in sight of) Grove Park almost every day. I have never seen anyone taking over anything. Even the "massive gathering" of high school students that recent got so much attention in another thread occupied, at most, 1/4 of the park.
It's a public park, for the public. Just like every other park in every other city in every other state. I see no correlation between someone's propsensity to pick up after themselves, and whether or not they are a South Orange resident. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 8001
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 5:21 pm: |
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cmontyburns, how come you're so reasonable and you have this old meany as an avatar? |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 986
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 5:33 pm: |
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Wait a minute, aren't you the one who made that meany avatar for me?
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 8002
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 5:35 pm: |
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I pinched it off the web and cropped it for you, but I only did that because of your evil name!
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Sheena Collum SHU
Citizen
Username: Sheena_collum
Post Number: 212
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 6:00 pm: |
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cmontyburns...
I have an idea, how about this???
It's a CARE BEAR... if you like it, I'd be happy to crop it for you |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 8004
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 6:05 pm: |
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Ichhhhhh. And he'd have to change his name at the same time. |
Sheena Collum SHU
Citizen
Username: Sheena_collum
Post Number: 214
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 6:08 pm: |
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how exactly do you pronounce "Ichhhhh" (perhaps you didn't like my suggestion... ahhh man, lol)
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 8005
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 6:11 pm: |
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The consonant is that Hebrew one that doesn't exist in English. It's a combination of a K and an H, and it sounds like you're trying to clear the phegm out of your throat.
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Sheena Collum SHU
Citizen
Username: Sheena_collum
Post Number: 215
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 6:39 pm: |
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Ohhhhhh I got it!
....ewwwwwwww |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 1536
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 7:44 pm: |
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Here's one cmonty can use... |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 987
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 8:31 pm: |
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Exxxxxcellent. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 1540
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 12:38 am: |
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Isn't there a difference between picnicing and BBQing? |
Back in Switzerland!
Supporter
Username: Bets
Post Number: 1942
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 12:48 am: |
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OK, I saw lots of friendly avatars as I scrolled down the page (it's getting late and I'll never keep up if I'm dead or hospitalized), so I'll only say this:
I had a sheep (baa baa black) in grove park for several weeks in the summer of '81. I can provide witnesses. The Powers That Were were not Pleased. But they couldn't provide an actual law against mutton so I was allowed to keep Baa until my bro-in-law (who lived on Raymond) found a home for him in upstate NY.
Somewhere, out there, there is a recording of us teens baa'ing, baaAAAaaAAAaaaaa, and the sheep occasionally baa'ing back.
Fcuk. The doorbell just rang. BRB. |
Back in Switzerland!
Supporter
Username: Bets
Post Number: 1943
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 12:49 am: |
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Papa John's for downstairs. Apparent inability to distinguish 1st from 2nd (the tenants, not the delivery person). All still relatively calm. |
Joe Citizen
Citizen
Username: Joecitizen07079
Post Number: 32
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 12:59 am: |
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Hey people remember this Police Officers and Police Departments do "NOT" make the laws they are simply charged with the duty of enforcing them. If you do not like a particular ordinance that has been adopted by South Orange then you are obligated to contact the Board of Trustees and explain what you do not like and ask that the ordinance be reviewed, the same goes for state laws if you don't like them then contact your congressman. |
Back in Switzerland!
Supporter
Username: Bets
Post Number: 1948
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 1:36 am: |
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I thought all contacts are filtered through John O. Gross, Treasurer extraordinaire (NOT!)? |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 989
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 10:49 am: |
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Weird. I changed my little avatar to the JustTheAunt grin, but now it has changed back.
It is as if Tom Reingold reached out from the grave and returned my image to the one he made for me. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 8016
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 11:01 am: |
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Clear your browser's cache. |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 991
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 11:35 am: |
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Stop it with your black magic!
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Sheena Collum SHU
Citizen
Username: Sheena_collum
Post Number: 218
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 3:17 pm: |
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Cmontyburns -
Why didn't you like my Care Bear?
Just not my week on MOL... geez |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 998
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 3:38 pm: |
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I'm more of a My Little Pony guy, sorry. |
Sheena Collum SHU
Citizen
Username: Sheena_collum
Post Number: 221
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 3:50 pm: |
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....oh really?
I dare you... 
it's formatted too  |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 999
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 4:06 pm: |
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Who can resist a formatted pony. |
Sheena Collum SHU
Citizen
Username: Sheena_collum
Post Number: 222
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 1, 2005 - 1:03 am: |
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Cmontyburns...
I'm proud of you. I think the Pony is quite becoming of your ever so lovely posts. And the pink is to die for! So much better than the old avatar! |
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