| Author | Message | ||
     SO Refugee Citizen Username: So_refugee Post Number: 573 Registered: 2-2005  |
I've been pondering the past couple of days a comment that was made by Trustee Jennings at Monday's BOT meeting. In response to a villager's concerns regarding basketball returning to the new and improved Baird Center and all of the peripheral "stuff" that comes with it, Stacey remarked that there were "subleties" in wanting to keep basketball out of Baird - basically calling the gentleman speaking a racist for not wanting to be subjected to profanity from the ballers... She alluded to SO offering golf, baseball, soccer, and lacrosse with no complaints (translated - white sports) while basketball seeminlgy offers an opportunity for basketball players to attend college. Now, I can only speak for myself, but I don't care what sport(s) is(are) offered in SO as long as those who play - and I think we're referring more to the pick-up style, not organized - are respectful to the village and its citizens, e.g. not cursing loudly near a residential area, allowing others to use the courts, keeping the noise under control, and going home at dusk. It doesn't matter the sport or the color of the athlete as long as they conduct themselves properly. | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 770 Registered: 3-2002 |
I haven't seen Stacey's comments, and keep forgetting to tape meetings. Also, I don't hang out on the Baird courts, so I don't know how good or bad the behavior there is. However, I can't think that expecting decent manners on athletic fields is a racist position, and I hope that that is not what she is saying (anyone know when the meeting is being rebroadcast? All the schedules on channel 19 are out of date) If there is something in basketball culture that drives profanity or other bad behavior (from whatever race), then that needs to be addressed, no matter what the race or town of residence of the players. If, on the other hand, there are residents with double standards for behavior, then we need to address that. But our elected officials should be very careful before implying racism in townspeople with complaints. | ||
| Quint Citizen Username: Shark_killer Post Number: 13 Registered: 6-2005 |
Is she the same one who called the Police over the weekend when they showed up at a party she was at after neighbor's called about loud music? | ||
| Matt Foley Citizen Username: Mattfoley Post Number: 300 Registered: 6-2004  |
Your votes folks. Ob La Di Ob la Da... | ||
| peteglider Citizen Username: Peteglider Post Number: 1263 Registered: 8-2002 |
I was quite annoyed at her response during the BOT meeting -- she basically said she'd choose offering basketball to the youth of SO over the concerns of the neighborhood. If she feels so strongly that basketball gives so many opportunities -- then why doesn't she get her husband to do more at the school! (ok, that's a slightly cheap shot) Her attitude annoyed me -- sure, I think we need to have things for kids to do. But if the result is noise and a disrupted neighborhood -- then the neighborhood comes first IMO! I didn't hear the subleties comment, however. That said, if there were a lacrose field at Baird -- the neighbors would be equally allowed to be concerned about noise! /p | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 1537 Registered: 1-2004  |
Oh man I'm not even going to say what I really think about this. Where does she live? Maybe we could have the courts relocated to her neighborhood. Just what we need, a BOT member to created these kind of problems. As if the town doesn't already have enough problems. I agree with refugee, who cares what race people are or what sport it is. As long as everyone respects each other... | ||
| thegoodsgt Citizen Username: Thegoodsgt Post Number: 854 Registered: 2-2002  |
For some perspective.... I attended my first Yankees game at Yankee Stadium a couple of months ago (versus Boston), and I was appalled at the crude language I heard while the fans file out after the game...most of them white. Those fans had no consideration whatsoever for the children and women around them. (Remember the good ol' days when men respected women by acting appropriately in their presence?) So no, vulgar language is not a racial issue. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 221 Registered: 10-2004 |
My apologies to all who are about to be offended by this but I think there is no doubt that this is a racist issue. If the majority of the players/teenagers that use basketball courts were white then this would not even be raised as an issue. The Baird courts were there for years and they were used for years by people of all ages, shapes and colors. There were polite as well as impolite people, some tough guys and some not so tough. Just like real life. There is no excuse for being a jerk whatever the race. There is also no excuse for being intolerant of other people enjoying themselves playing basketball because someone feels they have more of a right to use the courts then someone else. They dont. If there is no officially sanctioned South Orange Recreation program going on and the courts are open then it is first come first served and common court etiquette applies. I am sure that the people of the neighborhood will make good use of the basketball courts as well as people coming from outside of the neighborhood. I do not know what trustee Jennings was talking about nor do I know what the complaining resident was talking about (although it may be a bit premature for complaints since there are no rims on the court yet so I would say it is more fear then anything else), but I do know that having basketball courts in town is a good thing. | ||
| Soda Supporter Username: Soda Post Number: 3489 Registered: 5-2001  |
Observation: Towards the end of the ceremony awarding the SO-M Little League Committee "Villager of the Month" status, it was mentioned more than once that the same group responsible for reinvigorating LL (that's Little League, not LibraryLady) is now working on a similar program for basketball. Questions: (A) Are they planning to use the b-ball facilities located in the gyms of our public schools, or will it be more of an outdoor program using existing outdoor courts in both towns? and (2) Where in S.O., aside from Baird, are there existing (useable) outdoor courts? I'd love to see an organized b-ball league in SO-M. I believe it would serve quite a large sector of our kids, who aren't currently involved in any of the existing organized programs (LL, Soccer, Football, Lax, Swimming, etc.). | ||
| Ace789nj Citizen Username: Ace789nj Post Number: 56 Registered: 2-2005 |
NO, but whenever people see an easy way to make an issue black or white they will. People who disregard decency come in all varieties. Having said that , I will speak on the b-ball court from my own experiences. I used to play there but over the years the quality of players has diminished, I'm not talking quality in someone's jumpshot or passing skills, I'm talking ethics, acceptable behavior, consideration for others (players, observers, passerbys). A lot of the people who use the comm. center are respectable, they go there intending to have a good time & not to cause trouble, but you'd be hard pressed to go there and NOT find kids acting otherwise. I don't think those of us who complain about this are overreacting, I'm sure we can handle a little trash talk, it is after all a competitive sport and I'm gonna yell at ya when you're taking your shot but when it comes to being vulgar there's a problem. How about when people feel free to leave their garbage all over the court?How about when it resorts to violence? My younger brother, who also USED to play there was beaten severely by kids who were playing ball...why, because he beat them in a game. WTF is wrong here? A 16 year old South Orange resident goes to the court, plays and wins against older kids from Newark and Irvington, they get made fun of because of the loss and their recourse is to wait for him to walk home alone & jump him. The kid needed major reconstructive surgury on his face. How can complaints not be taken seriously? Because whenever you construe an issue as being black or white nobody wants to go near it. | ||
| Ace789nj Citizen Username: Ace789nj Post Number: 57 Registered: 2-2005 |
Hmmm, my post was supposed to follow thegoodsgt's, I gotta learn how to type faster | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 988 Registered: 12-2003  |
Didn't see this exchange, but many complaints have been made to "out of towners" playing at Baird as justification for walling the place up. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess we're talking about black people from Irvington, not white folks from Short Hills. Yes, no one is a racist, everyone has a best friend who is a gay black jewish lesbian, race plays absolutely no role in our worldly well-adjusted lives, etc etc. And yet it's not a stretch for me to believe that it's possible -- just possible -- that there may be some white people in South Orange who feel very intimidated by the idea of approaching a group of black kids about sharing the court. Meanwhile, if you want to hear some profanity, join me on the tennis courts. And if I were any whiter, I'd be transparent. By the way: When did people become so shocked by teens and profanity? This is not a new phenomenon. I heard it when I was a teen, I hear it almost every day from kids of every color and social background. Trying to tackle the "teen profanity" problem (if you see it as one) on the basketball court seems to be approaching the issue from the wrong end. | ||
| Two Sense Citizen Username: Twosense Post Number: 275 Registered: 7-2004 |
Didn't hear/see Trustee Jenning's comments, but it's very disturbing to see her quickly inject race into a non-racial community discussion about the use of the Village's recreational facilities. If this now is a part of her governing modus operandi, it's going to be a very long four years. The only saving grace -- albeit making lemonade from lemons -- may be her alienating voters from supporting Taylor's bid for Village President. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 224 Registered: 10-2004 |
cmonty - well stated. If some people had their way then there would not be a basketball facility at all. | ||
| SoOrLady Citizen Username: Soorlady Post Number: 2315 Registered: 9-2003 |
ok.. I'm a bit confused. People from other towns use the Baird's facilities? Don't you have to reserve the courts with a proof of residency? I'm sure I did that in the past with the tennis & platform courts. Seems odd we don't do that with all the facilities. | ||
| CageyD Citizen Username: Cageyd Post Number: 332 Registered: 6-2003 |
To Hoops and Cmonty I am one of the people who for years has endured teenagers walking up my street after 11 pm and as late as 2 am yelling and screaming profanity, smashing street lights and and littering while bouncing their balls. Newsflash - at 11 pm or later I can't see the color of their skin - now who's being judgemental ? Frankly anyone who thinks this is no big deal, including Ms. Jennings . put your money where your mouths are. Private line me your private phone numbers. I will keep my cam corder next to my bed to record the audio disturbances outside my window at night b/c of the new courts. Hoops, Cmonty, Ms. Jennings, etc - when I am woken up by these antics - I will call your house right then and there and play the vulgarity and noise into your phone. You don't seem to think this is an imposition or problem so have some guts and send me your numbers. If I don't hear from you then I will assume - sorry if this upsets YOU Hoops - that you are gutless and really don't believe your own "racial" arguments. Further and more damning, I will conclude that you are really just race baiters who look at even the most legitimate situations /issues and infuse racism into it for your own enjoyment. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 990 Registered: 12-2003 |
The basketball courts sit empty for most of the day. Also, a lot more people can play on a basketball court than can play on a tennis court. (You can't "join in" on a game of tennis.) Don't worry, people from other towns aren't allowed on our tennis courts. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 226 Registered: 10-2004 |
Sorry Cagey you cant have my number. You should call the police when you have a noise disturbance. I am not an advocate for use of the Baird center after 10PM. Obviously if you are being kept awake nights because of noise disturbances then you should take action. However banning use of the basketball courts is not appropriate. Closing the courts after 9PM would be appropriate. BTW I lived for many years just across the street from a basketball court and really the noise and disturbance was far less then living near any college students. I am by no means upset. I think a valid resolution can be made that can solve your problems and still allow me to enjoy the basketball courts and the great sport of basketball. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 992 Registered: 12-2003 |
CageyD: It sounds like your issue is a policing problem, not a close-the-courts-to-out-of-towners problem, right? I see no connection between bad behavior/profanity and which town you're from. How would restricting the courts to South Orange residents in any way address your complaints (which are legitimate, by the way). Again, so we're clear: I'm not against making teens behave. I'm against any effort to close public spaces to "outsiders." I don't like the connotation, but more broadly, I don't think it has any correlation to a solution. A broader question: How are kids playing basketball so late anyways? If we're lighting the courts, that's just inviting this problem, it seems. It's pretty dark over by Baird after hours (we sometimes stroll through the area after dinner downtown). | ||
| Two Sense Citizen Username: Twosense Post Number: 281 Registered: 7-2004 |
Why not simply require a town resident to register to use the courts, force users to pay for the lights (like they do for other recreational facilities), and simply turn off the lights at 10pm. It seems like the Rec. Dept. is trying too hard to accommodate basketball players, as if they're somehow a less organized, more needy group of users. Users can't stroll onto Village tennis courts, baseball fields, or into the pool without abiding by a long list of rules designed to ensure equitable, civilized use of the facilities. P.S. For now, Trustee Jennings phone number is listed with Verizon. As a trustee who ran on an "open-government" platform, I'm sure she would welcome your call and being lulled to sleep by late night sounds of the city. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 8021 Registered: 1-2003  |
It's possible to be annoyed but not shocked. I think it's OK to hold offenders up to a standard, even though we might expect the offense. There is a grey area between expectation and acceptance. Expect unacceptable behavior, but don't accept or excuse it. There probably are some white folks who are intimidated or annoyed by black teenagers. That's a shame for the white folks and the teenagers. Even so, they should be allowed to address bad behavior, no? I don't fear such complaints (and possible enforcement) would lead teenagers from Irvington and anywhere else to stop playing basketball in South Orange. It might get them to behave better. That would be a good thing. | ||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 714 Registered: 4-2004 |
Whatever happened to Park Managers? Every summer the Parks & Rec would hire local college kids to work in parks to resolve problems and keep things running smoothly. If a kid repeatedly caused problems they were "banned" for a day or so. Wouldn't some type of court manager be of help during open hours? | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 1542 Registered: 1-2004 |
One of those involved -maybe in charge actually of the basketball program is Charlie Tamayo. I've known Charlie (and his wife) since 7th grade. Knowing how well the basball program was run, I'm sure Charlie will see to it the baskeball program is just as successful. As for Hoops saying the courts should be run with common basketball 'etiquette;' No Thanks! I for one do NOT want the 'rules' once you're on the court you own it until you're too tired to play. No way! If their are people waiting to use the court, you're time ends when your game does. Just because it's the 'culture' to do this in other places doesn't mean it has to be whats done here. If someone doesn't like it - too bad. You can't hog the tennis courts. cmonty -Unfotunately your idea of people 'joining in' a game, or even joining those already playing when they start a new game. Supposedly it doesn't work that way. Which is why my nephews were cursed at on more then one occasion. And of course the courts are empty during the day. Most kids are in school, and during the summer most of the kids I know are in camp. Those who are home alone are not allowed to leave their property. It's not like it was when I was growing up where we'd go to the park for the day without an adult. I'm still a little unclear on how this basketball program is going to be run. Am I understanding correctly that kids from outside Maplewood and South Orange will be allowed to join the program? And I echo Cagey. PL me your numbers as well soI can call you the next time they start cussing at two little boys. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 993 Registered: 12-2003 |
Completely agree with you Tom. What frustrates me is that in almost every single discussion about "bad behavior," you can expect early on for someone to raise the issue of "outsiders" causing the trouble. Not our little South Orange/Maplewood angels. (See recent threads on trouble at maplewood movie theater, grove park, maplewood park, springfield avenue, columbia high school...) Solving our problems is tougher than building fences and keeping the wrong people out of town. If kids are out of control on the Baird basketball courts, obviously the town needs to do something about it. A good first step is for folks to call the police when something happens (such as someone being noisy after hours, someone threatening your kids/nephews on the court, etc). I never meant to imply that teens aren't misbehaving at times on the courts, only that it has been my experience that the courts are often empty, and the games I've seen there appear to be extremely friendly. I dispute the assertion (if anyone is making it) that we have somehow reached some crisis stage on the Baird basketball courts. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 994 Registered: 12-2003 |
Just The Aunt: What did the police say when you contacted them about teens bullying your little boys? What about the staff at the Baird Center (located just beside the courts)? | ||
| Matt Foley Citizen Username: Mattfoley Post Number: 305 Registered: 6-2004 |
I say we wait & see what happens at the new courts. If there are problems then we as a community can go forward and address them. It was my understanding that ID badges were required for the facilities in town. This should quell the "outsiders" issue. That withstanding our little ruffians should be easily kept in check. In my day a call to our parents from anyone from the community center would have been devastating at the homefront. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 227 Registered: 10-2004 |
No badges are nor should be required to use a public basketball court. Sorry too JTA but I will try just one more time to explain it to you. Basketball is run very fairly and is not what you portray it to be. THe first people to the court shoot around in an informal sense until enough players show up to choose up a game. A game is chosen from the available players and those not chosen get the 'next' game. If there are more players on the side then can play on 1 team then there is another game waiting after next and so on. Usually one person has the rights to pick the next team (the person with the next) and if that person does not select you or has already filled his team then you see who has after him and so on. If all teams are full then you have the last next and you get to pick your team. Winning teams hold the court until they lose. Thats the way it works in every city and town throughout the country. When your kids are old enough to compete with the big boys they will be very happy that you did NOT get your way. As for my own kids and me we will be getting a next on the courts and will wait our turn. We take on all challengers... As for Mr. Tamayo his kid and mine played ball on the same South Mountain team that won the State Championship this year and I think he is very capable as well. See you on the court  | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 1169 Registered: 5-2004  |
Hoops, while I agree that this is the way it is in many places, I don't think it's the same on every court int eh country. There are some towns (I used to live in upstate NY and PA) that do what people are takling about - require one person to reserve the court with the community center. The problem is that for young kinds, it's simply not reasonable for them to be playing against kids so much bigger. A 9-year old should not be on the court with 17 year olds. I don't care how good he is, basketball is a physical game and seems to be getting more physical every year. So how does a 9 year old get to play if the guys holding the court (and lined up next) are mostly much older? I don't have a partiular solution. But I don't think the courts in South Orange should be run the same way that the courts in NYC are. | ||
| AntoninaKC Citizen Username: Antoninakc Post Number: 41 Registered: 5-2005 |
well said, hoops! | ||
| SoOrLady Citizen Username: Soorlady Post Number: 2316 Registered: 9-2003 |
To go one step further Rastro - I think your 9 year old, who lives in town, should get to use the court before someone from out of town - be it Irvington, East Orange, West Orange, Maplewood, Millburn, or Short Hills. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 997 Registered: 12-2003 |
Again: People in town have absolutely no trouble using the basketball courts at the Baird Center. I disagree with anyone who alleges they are somehow dominated by out-of-towners. Just The Aunt is the only person I know of who has alleged that she was unable to use the courts. And we have no idea if the people who threatened her boys (still waiting to hear what the police did about the situation) were from South Orange or not. I walk my dogs by Baird all the time, and I almost always see open courts. Keep in mind there are several baskets (6 I think?). Finally, I'd argue that 9-year-olds (like 19-year-olds) need to learn that sometimes you just have to wait until someone else is done with their game before you get to play. Do you want to start carding kids on the Merry-Go-Round in Maplewood park to make sure they aren't from South Orange? | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 228 Registered: 10-2004 |
Rastro - I have raised 2 basketball junkies and when they were 9 there were programs like the South Mountain YMCA and the rec department Sunday leagues. Of course if there is any new Baird programs for younger players then that would be great. Remember all kids grow up and obviously children should not play with adults, nor would they really want to. I know that many times younger kids shoot around and work on dribbling during times that their siblings or parents are playing on the court. If anything the Baird can maybe schedule times when only kids are allowed and see what the usage would be with that policy but let the courts be open to all. | ||
| Soda Supporter Username: Soda Post Number: 3491 Registered: 5-2001 |
No matter what anybody might wish the rules would be, no matter what "traditional" court manners you've come to expect or have played by all your lives, the courts are part of the Baird Center, which is run by Andy Brady. If you want the court rules & regs to reflect your particular wish list, you'd best discuss things with Andy. He'll make the rules, and be responsible for their enforcement. Any back&forth on the subject here on MOL is purely informational. -s. | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 217 Registered: 4-2005  |
I was at the BOT meeting with my friend who happens to be an African American student. I, personally, am not in the least bit fond of the "race card" (as a matter of fact it drives me insane). But both my friend and I got the same jist from this gentleman that Stacey did. After talking to some folks after the meeting, they said he's "such a nice guy" and is far from being a "racist" which I'm sure is true. But from his statements alone, not knowing him at all, I would have responded the same way Stacey did (maybe a little different). Brett has the best idea, IMHO. Someone else had suggested that as well to me. It would be a great idea to hire some college folks or park managers to oversee the courts. It could be possibly implemented in the fall during after school hours up until 9pm and then shut the lights off at the court. In the meantime, a structured basketball program is an outstanding idea because it ensures fairness of skill and someone supervising the competition would be a grand ole' time for everyone. Also, from the BOT meeting, it never once crossed my mind that Stacey was saying kids being able to play ball trumps residents concerns of noise, etc. So atleast try to be fair. | ||
| mary032 Citizen Username: Mary032 Post Number: 177 Registered: 8-2001 |
The issue here is trustee Jenning’s racist attitude at the last trustees’ meeting. A resident (and municipal employee I might add) who lives in the vicinity of Mead St./Vose Ave. raises the issue of late night loud voices, foul language, strewn garbage, bullying, and the like, coming from users of the basketball courts at Baird. Then trustee Jennings attacks him for his “subtleties”, coloring him as racist. It is unconscionable to me that an elected African-American official is so eager to jump at the chance to turn the innocent remarks of a constituent into a racial issue. If that is what we should expect from trustee Jennings, we are in for some interesting four years, and an interesting election in 2007. My friend tells me that I shouldn’t be surprised. Trustee Jennings ran on black-versus-white ticket and we should expect that both she and Moore-Abrams will continue on the same pattern. Watch how the black issue will become more and more predominant in our town, disproportionate to the number of African-American residents. | ||
| bets Supporter Username: Bets Post Number: 1964 Registered: 6-2001  |
Sheena, I happen to know the gentleman in question and it's not a race issue. Have you seen the lights at the new basketball court? Like Dave's objection to daylight-strength lights at 11 p.m. and later on the baseball fields, light pollution in that area is a real concern. | ||
| Two Sense Citizen Username: Twosense Post Number: 288 Registered: 7-2004 |
To repeat: If this now is a part of her governing modus operandi, it's going to be a very long four years. The only saving grace -- albeit making lemonade from lemons -- may be her alienating voters from supporting Taylor's bid for Village President. | ||
| Quint Citizen Username: Shark_killer Post Number: 14 Registered: 6-2005 |
Don't you people know ONLY white people can be racist?  use badges at the courts...... Then you can just blame the So. Orange kids for all of your problems | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 1546 Registered: 1-2004 |
cmonty- They aren't *my* kids. They are my nephews. As for what Andy said, well considering the community center was closed the first time -nada. As for the second time it happened, Andy wasn't around and the office staff present wanted to know what I expected them to do about. A follow up call to Andy was, well let's just say there wasn't much he could do about it. The third time, I didn't bother. As for calling the police, yeah right. Like they don't have better things to do. Besides, some of these overgrown 'kids' know where I live. They walk by my house enough back into Orange. This is why there needs to be new 'rules' posted when the new courts open. This way everyone knows what's expected of them and will know what the consequences of their bad behavior will be. I'm not saying there is a 'crisis' I'm just saying there is no need to be cussing at younger and smaller kids. And, unfortunately, or hogging the courts. (and before Hoops lectures me again - I do NOT care what the 'let's be tough guys' culture supposedly is. It might be that way where you grew up; but I've asked a dozen or so people I know who live and breath basketball who all tell me differently) Anyway monty, the three encounters we've had by the courts in the past few years have been anything but friendly. When I learend Charlie was running the program I tried to convince my sister to give the program a chance. She said "No Thanks" She'll take the kids to Hoop Heaven. Like I said, Charlie is a good guy. He's not going to stand for rude behavior in any program he runs. So I'm sure the basketball program will be a success. It's the rest of the time, when there is no adult there, possible problems should be addressed before they happen. If the kids are aware of 'this is the way things are done here' from the beginning, and these are the consequences you will face if you don't follow these simple rules, you will not be permitted to play on the courts; maybe the 'culture' will change. It doesn't matter where the kids are from. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 1547 Registered: 1-2004 |
monty- In response to your statement below. The three occassions my nephews asked to join in, they were cussed at by those already on the courts... >>> there may be some white people in South Orange who feel very intimidated by the idea of approaching a group of black kids about sharing the court. <<< |
