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red_alert
Citizen
Username: Red_alert
Post Number: 141
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 1, 2005 - 3:44 pm: | 
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I find a parallels with South Orange and Livingston's town center.
The town is in a simliar transistion phase of development.
In Livingston, vacant places in the center of town are being transformed into storefronts, apts/condos, and parks. (i.e. Livingston Movie theater and corner stores with our Beifus, and Shoprite storefronts)
Even the contstruction is handled better. (Broken chain linked fencing and blocked or dangerous walkways in South Orange vs. clean passable sidewalks in Livingston.)
Why is South Orange still innundated with vacancies, hollow buildings, and abandoned construction zones while Livingston is implementing improvements?
I urge the BOT to get that master plan together and make it happen. They should also speak with the leaders in Livingston to see how we can get over the design phase hump.
Posters...
Provide your comparison between S.Orange Village and Livingston center. The points could potentially be brought to the board's attention for clarity and answers.
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MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 2587
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 1, 2005 - 3:57 pm: |
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South Orange has Calabrese & Taylor.
Livingston doesn't. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 2588
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 1, 2005 - 4:01 pm: |
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On an unrelated note, does anyone know what they are building in Livingston on Mt. Pleasant Ave closer to the West Orange border? I see a ton of construction there & it looks like they are widening the road to support a huge building being built there (new school??). |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 1174
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 1, 2005 - 4:18 pm: |
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Livingston has a large draw from surrounding towns in addition to their own population. South Orange doesn't.
Livingston has exprience with large commercial devlopers, South Orange doesn't.
Livingston is a proven destination town where developers know people will pass by and stop at hte stores. South Orange isn't.
South Orange is a bedroom community. Livingston isn't.
South Orange is a community of around 17,000 people. Livingston is over 27,000.
Average age in South Orange - 35. Average age in Livingston - 41.
Livingston Median Inome - $114k. South Orange Median Income - $83k
Lots of differences. |
red_alert
Citizen
Username: Red_alert
Post Number: 143
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 1, 2005 - 4:31 pm: |
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Rastro thank you for your contribution. You can use those points as justifications and excuses for South Orange as well as the differences between towns.
Some similarities I found.
+ Both have a dying town center.
+ Both are town destinations. Livingston by car, and South Orange with the advantage of the train.
Livingston has a Walgreens and South Orange has a Rite Aid.
+ Both have draws from surrounding communities if there is a proper draw. Livingston has it now because they are making progress while South Orange remains stagnant.
+ Both have schools and places of worship in walking distance of the center.
+ Both have a diner. Ritz and Blue Moon.
+ Both have a Starbucks.
+ Both have a need for bringing economic influx into town. |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 781
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 1, 2005 - 4:46 pm: |
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And Livingston has the million dollar drug dealer bust of the day, South Orange doesn't.
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jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 56
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 1, 2005 - 8:19 pm: |
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MHD-
I heard that the construction on Mt.Pleasant, close to W. Orange is for a new Middle School.
As to the S.Orange Vs. Livingston:
South Orange has a bonafide downtown and Lvingston is more of a sprawl.
South Orange has a univeristy and its population, Livingston doesn't.
Livingston has a mall, and the rate-ables it derives from them. So. Orange has few rate-ables.
Livingston is sort of a thorough fare in many areas - So. Orange Ave, Mt. Pleasant Ave., Northfield Ave.; Eisenhower Pkway. So. orange has one main thoroughfare, and its into and out of Newark. Thus its hard to draw folks from surrounding towns into our limited downtown area. There is a limited population to pull into any stores etc. unless they are truly destination shops and restaurants. And in my opinion, therein lies our problem. We must have destination places and appeal to the student population. Ordinary ho-hum establishments won't cut it. |
Old and Gray
Citizen
Username: Pastmyprime
Post Number: 147
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 1, 2005 - 11:38 pm: |
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South Orange has...NEWARK to its immediate right...Livingston has Millburn |
Old and Gray
Citizen
Username: Pastmyprime
Post Number: 148
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 1, 2005 - 11:39 pm: |
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That was a joke...I can see what your saying, but we are much more compact, their center is much more spread out and has much more commercial rateables and much more Name brands. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 1175
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 2, 2005 - 12:04 am: |
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O&G, you're getting close to my point.
red_alert, Livingston and South Orange are more different than they are similar. Demographics are different, commercial ratables are different, size are different. You're comparing whther they both have Starbucks and a drug store? How about this? Livingston has the Livingston Mall. Macy's, Sears, Lord & Taylor. Lots of other brand name stores. We have Starbucks and Dunkin Donuts. Livingston has Kings and Shoprite. We have... Pathmark.
I would guess the overall budget of Livingston is some multiple of ours greater than 2 or 3.
And as much as I'd like to believe it, South Orange is no where near the destination that Livingston is.
It's not an excuse for things going on here. I'm as frustrated about things as the next person. But we could compare ourselves to amy other town, and it wouldn't change things.
Livingston is doing things better. Great. Let's learn from them. But to imply that we can do the same things as they can because there are a few similarities between the towns is just plain silly. And there is no reason to do things exactly the way they do.
Do we need a master plan? Absolutely. Is there one in place? God only knows, since the BOT seems to not really care about it if there is (as shown at the last meeting). Eventually (and we're getting there fast), it's not going to matter if there is one, because so many large projects will be beyond the point of no return.
The level of incompetence being shown by the administration is monumental. To quote Bob Dylan (I was reading through 25 years of Rolling Stone tonight), "All politics is corrupt." I didn't think it as possible at the local level for things to be so crazy. Obviously I was wrong.
But that doesn't mean that following Livingston's example will work for us. As much as some would like to think otherwise, we're two very different towns. Personally, I like that. Livingston is too plastic for me. |
galileo
Citizen
Username: Galileo
Post Number: 184
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, July 2, 2005 - 12:04 am: |
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South Orange has Midtown Direct!! |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 1176
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 2, 2005 - 12:17 am: |
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jayjay, I agree completely.
galileo, the midtown direct gives us potential, but that's it. We need to give people a reason to think of our town as more than a train station. We need to give them a reason to meet their families here after getting off the train. We need to get them to spend another 1/2 hour in town shopping before heading home. We need to take advantage of the positives and work out a plan to give people a reason to come and stay for a while. |
galileo
Citizen
Username: Galileo
Post Number: 185
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, July 2, 2005 - 7:40 pm: |
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I don't think Livingston really has a downtown. It's very spread out. The homes are ranches,splits and Cape Cods.Our homes have so much character,each one is unique. |
Old and Gray
Citizen
Username: Pastmyprime
Post Number: 149
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 9:52 am: |
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Well on the subject of Midtown direct: It saved this town from becoming Newarks Far West Ward. |
red_alert
Citizen
Username: Red_alert
Post Number: 144
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 8:11 am: |
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Thanks for driving home the point Rastro. We should learn from Livingston.
I started this thread to compare strictly both towns center improvments. There are vast differences with economics, demographics, etc. But if you look at how Livingston's town government is taking action and improving the town, I question, why are we still stuck in the planning stages and giving out Pilots. |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 1033
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 9:24 am: |
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One more difference between the towns:
People in NYC have heard of South Orange.
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mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2055
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 9:38 am: |
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Red: Livingston gave out a PILOT, gave away property and first announced the plans for the "town center" in the early 90's. Read their PILOT agreement vs ours and you will see that ours brings in more dollars per sq. foot by a long shot. In fact, that plan was stuck in the planning stages for many years till they agreed to a PILOT.
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User58
Citizen
Username: User58
Post Number: 239
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 9:42 am: |
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By the way what is going on with the rug location...the famous location next to bunnys that had some movement for the election and now seems to be in the same state as sickley, the beifus location, supermarket??????? |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 1197
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 10:15 am: |
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cmonty, I guess it's question of the pack you run in... More people I know have heard of Livingston than South Orange (other than those that know I live here). |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 1036
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 10:42 am: |
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Short Hills, Milburn, Maplewood, South Orange, West Orange and Montclair are the ones who are seeing people moving out from Manhattan and Brooklyn in droves. That's not to say that other NJ towns aren't thriving -- they absolutely are -- but they're getting lots of people from elsewhere in NJ or out of the region entirely.
I don't think Livingston, without a direct train to Penn Station, is on the short list of many Manhattanites considering a move to the burbs.
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User58
Citizen
Username: User58
Post Number: 247
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 10:45 am: |
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Wrong-go! Many people are moving from manhattan to livingston and other towns they park at turtleback and take the bus or they drive to the park and ride. I have a friend that just moved to livingston from manhattan. |
User58
Citizen
Username: User58
Post Number: 248
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 10:48 am: |
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I also believe and Mr. Rosner correct me if I am wrong the taxes are lower in Livingston.
They do not have the diversity of our town and certaintly not the old home stock. In my opinion South Orange is a much nicer place to live. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 2596
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 12:55 pm: |
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I noticed "The Afton" in Florham Park (on Columbia Turnpike) was knocked down after being vacant for less than 1 year and now has a Construction fence around it. Let's see how quickly THAT site is rebuilt (although I'm willing to bet it will be quicker than Beifus) |
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