| Author | Message | ||
     User58 Citizen Username: User58 Post Number: 245 Registered: 8-2004 |
I heard a rumor that someone in town is selling their Liquor licence? Any idea who???? | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2056 Registered: 4-2002 |
I have no idea, but usually when a liquor license is involved we hear about it fairly soon. | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 1794 Registered: 7-2003 |
The Shop rite Liquors is closing July 31, a sign there says that they have 1 year to relocate or sell the license. | ||
| Pizzaz Supporter Username: Pizzaz Post Number: 2021 Registered: 11-2001  |
I believe a LL can be pocketed for up to 2 years.  | ||
| User58 Citizen Username: User58 Post Number: 252 Registered: 8-2004 |
No, I heard it was a regurlar liquor licence. Is Orange lawn selling theirs? | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2058 Registered: 4-2002 |
User: I believe they are considering selling the full license and will get a club license. | ||
| User58 Citizen Username: User58 Post Number: 253 Registered: 8-2004 |
I heard someone is interested in using the sickley sight to open a family restaurant/ bar? Is that true? | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 1796 Registered: 7-2003 |
The Sign said that the License “Expired in a year” so maybe they are going to sell after that? | ||
| User58 Citizen Username: User58 Post Number: 255 Registered: 8-2004 |
The town needs to increase the amount of licenses we have. I believe we have 7 in total. We should have a few more. | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 235 Registered: 4-2005  |
What's the purpose of limiting the amount of liquor licenses? | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2059 Registered: 4-2002 |
The state regulates the number based on population but there does not seem to be any real logic to do so. A LL is worth much more than it would be otherwise and since one recently sold for a fairly high amount it would be unfair to significantly increase the number of licenses. We can debate the issue and come with all kinds of solutions and alternatives but the state has not wanted to address the issue (many would argue it is not a problem). | ||
| User58 Citizen Username: User58 Post Number: 257 Registered: 8-2004 |
why are there so many in Hoboken? | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2061 Registered: 4-2002 |
Nobody has been able to answer the question (except with hints about corruption). | ||
| Two Sense Citizen Username: Twosense Post Number: 297 Registered: 7-2004 |
The arguement regarding protecting current LL holders is an old, unproven one -- especially when their value has appreciated far more rapidly than the value of real estate or the stock market. It's rumored that the most recent transfer was for $500,000, up just a few ticks from the previous $275,000 price. Ten years ago, when NJ Transit was said to consider virtually giving away liquor licenses to tenants on Sloan Street, because of its extra-jurisdictional powers, it was S.O.'s current LL holders who went balllistic, including some very well-connected LL holders, who coincidentally host most, local political events. The interests of the public never were considered at that time. Why would the Village suddenly consider otherwise at this time? NYC faced this conundrum when trying to address its taxi cab shortage, but ultimately decided that the interests of consumers seeking hard-to-find cabs trumped the interest of protecting taxi medallion holders/investors. Accordingly, the NY Taxi Commission vastly increased the number of taxi medallions; and, guess what, the value of medallions didn't decrease. Demand still outstrips supply. While Hoboken may have more LL's as a result of corruption, South Orange's restrictions and inattention to this matter certainly are as questionable. | ||
| Pizzaz Supporter Username: Pizzaz Post Number: 2025 Registered: 11-2001 |
State law limits the number of licenses by population. It's that simple. Given our resident base today, we are overlicensed. The appreciated value of the license is a good thing for the public as well. It stimulates the forebearance to the LL holder to preserve and protect, and as a result, it helps to ensure that alcohol is not served to the underaged or intoxicated. | ||
| singlemalt Supporter Username: Singlemalt Post Number: 1089 Registered: 12-2001  |
Pizazz, is your previous post a joke? Sure, you may not want to lose your license for underage consumption but you are assuming that others would not have the same incentive to protect their own investment! I doubt anyone paying $500k for a LL is about to piss it away (no pun intended) on serving minors. There needs to be a limit on the number of LL’s but let’s not assume the village is overloaded and we don’t have room for a few more if they are provided to responsible business owners. Face it - LL owners in town are protecting their investment. As Gordon Ghecco said in the movie Wall Street, “Greed is good” and I agree - but let's not act like the profit on the license and the booze is doing us a public service. | ||
| Pizzaz Supporter Username: Pizzaz Post Number: 2026 Registered: 11-2001 |
The limit is restricted by State law. Is there something I'm missing? BTW: The concessionaire permit to be issued by NJ Transit was at no cost to the holder but with an annual registration fee of $1000 dollars paid directly to the state. The annual renewal fee for locally administered licenses is $2500 dollars/per year and the investment now is $450K. The inequities are obvious to the LL holder. How then does a LL holder fairly compete? | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 1639 Registered: 1-2004  |
Pizzaz- Are they taking into consideration the SHU population? | ||
| singlemalt Supporter Username: Singlemalt Post Number: 1090 Registered: 12-2001 |
I agree with the state law portion of your post, but as others have pointed out, heavy lobbying in our "pay to play" state can overcome many of those obstacles. See Hoboken and many other municipalities. I am trying to understand your opinion on why it's in the best interest of the community (see my post above) to have the values of the LL go through the roof due to supply and demand. It only benefits the owner of the LL in two ways: 1. When they go to sell the LL they make a huge profit 2. Less competition means more liquor (and food) revenue An argument could be made that places of business that have poor food and service will continue to stay in business since there are so few choices of liquor establishments (see Gaslight). As a business owner and accountant you know where you make your margins…. it’s certainly not the food side of your business (although I love your pizza). | ||
| Pizzaz Supporter Username: Pizzaz Post Number: 2027 Registered: 11-2001 |
The margins are in the drinks. No question. And as you may know, drink prices do subsidize the food end in most establishments. The other variable to the picture is the cost of overhead (liquor liability insurance being a primary component). If someone wants one, buy it. Let market forces dictate how much is paid for one. And the real issue is very much about the public welfare and LL holder responsibility when it comes to serving alcohol to the public. | ||
| singlemalt Supporter Username: Singlemalt Post Number: 1091 Registered: 12-2001 |
Only at election time.  (sorry, that was too easy) Pizzaz, thanks for the explanation. I just wish there were more LL's available to attract more restaurants to the village. As you mention, it does help sub the food portion of the business. As much as I love BYOB's, I wonder how they make enough on food to cover their own overhead. | ||
| Old and Gray Citizen Username: Pastmyprime Post Number: 152 Registered: 2-2005 |
I think towns like Hoboken might have had many establishments grand fathered before regulation...Dover where i used to live in Morris County has some 50 or so liquor lics. and has a population similar to South Orange. | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 237 Registered: 4-2005 |
Awww Singlemalt... I'm hurt... I thought we've grown past that, lol  JTA- From what I understand the Village never uses SHU's population. | ||
| Two Sense Citizen Username: Twosense Post Number: 300 Registered: 7-2004 |
It's all about the money. Not just the appreciating value of a license that's clearly and intentionally held in short supply, it's about having a lock on the supply of restaurants and bars serving liquor -- limiting distribution of a product that's in demand -- to boost profitability. And, the more you pay for you license, the greater your vested interest in limiting the supply of licenses. Pizzaz, if you ever get another shot at governing S.O. or any other entity, maybe you can make the case for licensing and restricting places that serve high calorie food to "protect" the public from hurting itself a cornerstone of your platform. Voters in the last election probably never knew that you had such philanthropy running through your veins. | ||
| User58 Citizen Username: User58 Post Number: 261 Registered: 8-2004 |
We have room for many more locations that serve alcohol. Pizzaz lets be serious here. Giving a liqyor license to every restaurant that wants one is what should be done. People are walking into every resturant that does not have one and bringing in bars. Who supervisors what they drink? If someone walks out of your bar drunk and kills someone I believe as the server you share the responsability, you as the LL holder have responsibility. As a licensed establishment you have the obligation to control consumption and rightfully so. Who controls the consumption of alcohol when someone drinks excessively in arrugula or any othe BYO? I believe all restaurants should be given a serving license, free. Public welfare come on now better a restaurant serves and watches and is responsible for the persons intake than someone bringing alcohol and wine by the bottle. | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2064 Registered: 4-2002 |
Simple solution would be to give each current LL holder another license. Then they could sell it or open another restaurant. Their total value would remain the same. If a LL is worth $400,000 today then with double the licenses each would be worth $200,000. No downside for current LL holders and we could attract more restaurants. | ||
| Pizzaz Supporter Username: Pizzaz Post Number: 2029 Registered: 11-2001 |
Not likely. I'm done with this thread too. | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2065 Registered: 4-2002 |
Pizzaz: What is the problem? Are you saying this is not something to be discussed? | ||
| User58 Citizen Username: User58 Post Number: 262 Registered: 8-2004 |
Mark Great idea. Pizzaz why are you done with this thread? | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 1801 Registered: 7-2003 |
Because he doesn’t want the competition of another bar. | ||
| User58 Citizen Username: User58 Post Number: 263 Registered: 8-2004 |
Pizzaz I am really interested in you point of view as a LL holder. Do you fell we should be able to BYO to restaurants that do not have a LL? My thought is if the state issues them because they want to have control on consumption as you have said then how do they control what I bring to a BYO restaurant??? | ||
| User58 Citizen Username: User58 Post Number: 264 Registered: 8-2004 |
Thanks Brett now I get it. I am a little slow this morning. | ||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 743 Registered: 4-2004 |
"Giving a liquor license to every reaturant that wants one is what should be done" -User58 I wouldn't advocate a boom in liquor licenses for purposes of increasing downtown commerce. How many groups have bought into existing licenses only to find the going tough and then catering to college-age (translation: underage) customers? Liquor is a regulated industry because there are many pitfalls, and the town is also liable if it issues more licenses than it can reasonably oversee. Bars that are in financial trouble draw undesirable elements (drugs, gambling, etc.) just to stay alive. People regularly complain about having too many of certain types of business in town, i.e. nail parlors and hair salons. Having a downtown filled with bars is asking for trouble, and it would ultimately deter exactly the types of businesses that we would hope to attract. | ||
| User58 Citizen Username: User58 Post Number: 265 Registered: 8-2004 |
The state regulates the number based on population but there does not seem to be any real logic to do so. A LL is worth much more than it would be otherwise and since one recently sold for a fairly high amount it would be unfair to significantly increase the number of licenses Come on now Mr.Rosner you sound like a trustee! Really what is unfair here is the town is protecting the value of the 7 licenses that are out there and forcing the price to rise with no concern what the public wants? When you force the value of a LL to go to $350,000 because the demand is so high then we have a problem. | ||
| User58 Citizen Username: User58 Post Number: 266 Registered: 8-2004 |
Brett I said restaurants not bars. Take a bottle of wine to any restaurant in New Jersey and pour a drink to someone who is 20 years old. Who stops you? Who stops you when you drink two bottles of wine at dinner at a BYO? Or who stops you when you drink a bottle of Vodka at dinner at a BYO? There is no law governing the consumption in a BYO. Who in the town oversees the consumption of wine at any BYO in South Orange or any BYO in the state? So you see it is simply the protection of the licenses in issue as Mr. Rosner stated. | ||
| singlemalt Supporter Username: Singlemalt Post Number: 1092 Registered: 12-2001 |
Why? I did not read anything against you or Bunny's that could be taken negative. Am I missing something? | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2066 Registered: 4-2002 |
User: I asked the state a few years ago to please consider increasing the number of licenses. Obviously not a popular thought with current LL holders which is why I prefer the idea of giving each current holder another one and letting them sell. I have no idea what the correct number is or even if there is such a thing. The current system seems unfair and I think it should be modified. The state does not seem to really care although it could obviously generate more revenue (LL fees). | ||
| singlemalt Supporter Username: Singlemalt Post Number: 1093 Registered: 12-2001 |
I think that is a great idea Mark. I would also add that whoever you give the license to has a set period of time (say 24 months) to either use the license or sell it. If that does not happen, the state will sell it and whatever they collect will go the the previous LL holder minus a fee for the transaction of course. | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 789 Registered: 3-2002 |
I wish the state would take Rosner's suggestion...give every license holder an extra license to sell, increase the inventory of licenses, and make it more reasonable for restaurants to serve alcohol. I just can't see that this would change societal alcohol issues much. Most of the other states that I've lived in are much freer with liquor licenses, as far as I can tell. Most real restaurants in these states serve alcohol rather than being BYOB, and I doubt that it has led to very different levels of alcholism, drunk driving or underage drinking. However, I don't have the detailed facts, only my perception built on years of dining out in California, Ohio and other states. I think that the NJ system is honestly a bit silly and antiquated. But if I owned a liquor license worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, I'd be a supporter of the status quo too! But changing this is a state level issue...anyone ready to go lobby for it? | ||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 745 Registered: 4-2004 |
User58- the difference is that each consumer who goes to an eatery with BYOB assumes his/her own risk. It is really no different than drinking at home. And just because YOU say "restaurants not bars" doesn't mean that the license holders are going to see it that way. If you suddenly increased the local number of licenses to 20, those are 20 businesse competing with each other to sell booze. Places like Bunny's and Cryan's will take a hit for sure, but they are established family-run restaurants with generations of clientele- they will survive and outlast most others. The newcomers who spend tens of thousands for a license and hundreds of thousands for a place will soon be competing tooth and nail to cover their monthly nut. It will be like "Survivor" for booze peddlers, and most will go under. But not before they have drawn in underage drinkers and other negative elements just to stay afloat. When they go under, new purchasers will come in with lofty plans and upscale schematics that look like sure winners. But with 19 other liquor establishments they will surely find themselves in the same bind. I used to work in the restaurant/bar business years ago, but I left because the overheads became prohibitive and the net profits were so slim. And Pizzaz can surely tell you that the time and management constraints needed to keep a place profitable are extraordinary. And of course, in the liquor business one thing is true; if you are not physically there to run things, someone is ripping you off. |
