| Author |
Message |
    
hariseldon
Citizen
Username: Hariseldon
Post Number: 375
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 5:19 pm: |     |
Check out this article from Bloomberg, quoting Sheena Collum in a call for Seton Hall to rename the Koslowski building.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aViu1Vf.0HVA&refer=us
Maybe Seton Hall should give back the money? |
Nonymous Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 8444
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 5:28 pm: | |
Sheena makes good points. It's a good dilemma. The university has benefitted in a real way from a man who has done a lot of bad. It's a classic ethic question. I bet ethnics professors ask things like this. Such as, if you ran a charity that did good work, would you accept money won from gambling? Whatever your answer is, you better not come to it quickly.
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Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 6953
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 5:31 pm: | |
Alternate names:
St. Augustine "Give me chastity and continence, but not yet" Hall
Dante's H(a)ll
St Francis of Assisi's Animal House
Abelard's Abbey
Umberto Eco Hall |
SoOrLady
Citizen
Username: Soorlady
Post Number: 2395
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 5:31 pm: | |
A lot of tempest in a pot of tea. The conviction is a recent event.. his name will come off - just as Brennan's did. Perhaps the best plan for SHU is to name their buildings after long-dead saints. |
Vertifly
Citizen
Username: Vertifly
Post Number: 18
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 5:31 pm: | |
"Maybe Seton Hall should give back the money?"
Considering the allegations and conviction, perhaps they should take his name off AND ask for more. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 1819
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 7:30 pm: | |
IF they are going to rename it maybe it should be renamed 'Dana Christmas Hall.' Or named after the three young men who lost their lives in the fire five years ago. Maybe call it 'Caltabilota-Giunta-Karol Hall...'
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Sheena Collum SHU
Citizen
Username: Sheena_collum
Post Number: 285
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 12:12 am: | |
Man... NOTHING ever gets by MOL, lol 
|
mrmaplewood
Citizen
Username: Mrmaplewood
Post Number: 204
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 12:26 pm: | |
Does anyone remember the Robert Brennan problem several years ago? How does this keep happening to SHU? |
Kristen Williamson
Citizen
Username: Kris219
Post Number: 54
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 1:37 pm: | |
It happens to all universities, just like the article says...corporate criminals need to have their degree from somewhere. And everyone knows that bad news makes news, not good news. So all of the great alumn we have aren't all over the news...it's Brennan, Walsh and Kozlowski who make it to the front pages. The more I learn about our alumn, the more impressed I am, but I guess some people would rather look at the negative. |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 845
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 1:45 pm: | |
Yes, the Hall has many wonderful alumni, I hope that no one means any discredit to them.
But for some reason, relative to other universities that I know, the Hall also has more than its share of buildings/auditoriums recently named after people who ended up on the wrong side of the law for their business dealings. Bad luck I guess. |
Kristen Williamson
Citizen
Username: Kris219
Post Number: 56
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 2:04 pm: | |
Agreed. |
Sheena Collum SHU
Citizen
Username: Sheena_collum
Post Number: 287
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 2:29 pm: | |
I'm confidant the building will be renamed. It will probably be brought up at the next Board of Regents meeting which happens quarterly. They will make the final decision on any name changes. But we did change the rec. center and the library - so it would be consistent with what the school has done in the past. |
AntoninaKC
Citizen
Username: Antoninakc
Post Number: 54
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 3:08 pm: | |
Sheena, I thought they had no plans to take "Walsh" off the library... But I do remember hearing it used to be called something else just a few years ago.. do you know any more on this subject?? |
Jennifer Lackie
Citizen
Username: Jennifer_lackie
Post Number: 36
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 3:52 pm: | |
Sheena - I IMed you earlier. I do think that the building should be renamed. You and I both know that the "catholic mission" of SHU is constantly pushed. What kind of message are we sending if Kozlowski's name is on one of our biggest buildings. (Sigh, the ending of "Koz" will be a sad day for us all, thats the only building with an abbreviation! lol)
PS: What's going on with the name of the library? |
Pizzaz
Supporter
Username: Pizzaz
Post Number: 2151
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 3:55 pm: | |
The library should be renamed in honor of the late Monsignor Noe Field, University Librarian and Archivist, IMHO. |
Nonymous Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 8465
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 4:07 pm: | |
If you are so disgusted with Kozlowski's name, perhaps you should offer his money back. I'm not sure what I would do in your shoes.
Tom Reingold
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Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 6967
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 4:26 pm: | |
We don't name people after buildings, so why the reverse? Discuss. |
Nonymous Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 8468
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 4:44 pm: | |
Because buildings don't donate money to build people?
Tom Reingold
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Stuart0628
Citizen
Username: Stuart0628
Post Number: 76
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 5:09 pm: | |
We don't name people after buildings, so why the reverse? Discuss.
Maybe not after specific buildings (Flatiron Jones? Empire State Kowalski?), but we do name people after collections of buildings, so to speak (Paris Hilton, Brooklyn Beckham)
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Kristen Williamson
Citizen
Username: Kris219
Post Number: 58
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 5:19 pm: | |
They're not giving the money back. We all know it won't happen. It was a gift to the University, and now if Mr. Koz decides to break the law down the line, he shouldn't be given money back(even though he needs it to bail him out of the debt he is probably in), and his name should not be held in any type of honor, like as the namesake of a building. (imho)
We all know that in time it will be removed by the Board. |
ML
Supporter
Username: Ml1
Post Number: 2746
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 5:48 pm: | |
They should name the building after Mark Bryant. If he hadn't gone to SHU to play basketball, the Big East was going to kick the school out of the Big East. How many millions have come to the university courtesy of the Big East conference's revenue sharing? |
AntoninaKC
Citizen
Username: Antoninakc
Post Number: 56
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 6:41 pm: | |
Tom, "giving the money back" is quite unrealistic, dont you think? |
Sheena Collum SHU
Citizen
Username: Sheena_collum
Post Number: 289
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 11:15 pm: | |
The library is now referred to as the "University Library" - I believe that was done by the Board of Regents earlier this year but still people call it the Walsh Library out of habit.
We need to stop naming buildings altogether and instead put a plaque up or something recognizing the donors.
Though it would be ethically correct to return the money, I doubt that will happen. As a result of generous donations, the school can provide a better education to students through resources and technology.
It's a tough topic because the mission also teaches to LOVE the person and HATE the acts.
Very controversial but I'm open for debate. Giving back the money would be an unexpected expense and the University can't go into situations thinking "what happens if I have to give this back".
As you guys know, cuts would be have to be made and where would they come from? Scholarship and financial aid to our EOP students? Halting construction on the new science center which will help prepare students to become doctors and scientists? Public Safety? Cutting staff?
Mr. Kozlowski was very generous to our University prior to all the negative headline news? Either a deontological approach or a utilitarian approach... you choose... |
Nonymous Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 8473
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 11:50 pm: | |
Yes, AntoninaKC, giving it back is entirely unrealistic. And in a way, it's a reward for his misdeeds, too, so it's another ethical issue.
Sheena, I think a utilitarian approach would have you keep the money and also accept money from people you know are crooks, because the money is used to do good work that more than cancels out the evil the man did to come by the money. Well, you'd hope that the analysis comes out that way.
A deontological one would say you don't accept dirty money.
So if you don't want his name on the building, I guess you can just take it off. Maybe that's a warning to those who might do bad things. But a warning of what? To be good? Or just not to donate in the first place? Ah, yet another dilemma!
Tom Reingold
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Sheena Collum SHU
Citizen
Username: Sheena_collum
Post Number: 290
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 12:15 am: | |
Very nice analysis Tom, gotta love philosophy
I'm reminded of the story of the guy who won the lottery and wanted to donate to habitat for humanity (I believe) but the charitable organization turned it down saying it was "dirty money" - basically meaning that the donation would be made in light of all the men and women who have gambling habits and lost money that could have gone to feed their families, etc. (Some logic like that). I thought it was ridiculous at the time because those who are less fortunate could benefit from the donation... but it was more of a matter of principle I suppose.
OH HIGH ORACLE OF MOL... awake from your slumber in Boca! What would thy wise one offer in light of the Kozlowski conviction? |
Kristen Williamson
Citizen
Username: Kris219
Post Number: 61
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 12:19 am: | |
Oh you're such an antagonist Sheena!
ps. utilitarianism is my favorite on paper. |
Sheena Collum SHU
Citizen
Username: Sheena_collum
Post Number: 292
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 12:25 am: | |
Moderator D... see above... Ms. K called me a "MOL no no" under your "personal attacks" policy...
BTW Kristen... your bathroom is sooo filthy...
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susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 849
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 9:16 am: | |
Um, if, hypothetically speaking, Seton Hall were to give the money back, they would owe it to Tyco or its shareholders, not to Kozlowski, I think...give it back to the looted, not the looter. |
Kristen Williamson
Citizen
Username: Kris219
Post Number: 62
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 11:59 am: | |
Susan,
I wonder if the monies he donated were his or part of the monies from Tyco. I am somehow led to believe that the monies were not Tyco's, because then we would probably be involved in the lawsuit. Then the money would go to Kozlowski, and like I said before, would be used to pay off the debt from the lawsuit. I wonder how much he is going to have to payback to the company along with the jail time.
Sheena,
What bathroom do you refer to? I am currently not on campus, but the bathroom on SO Ave is quite sparkling.
Kristen |
The Oracle of MOL
Supporter
Username: Oracle_of_mol
Post Number: 31
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 12:08 pm: | |
Queen Of The Bungle:
Mortals (notwithstanding Ayn Rand, Tom Cruise, et al) must cling to their illusions, lest their lives become unbearable. Naturally, We who hear the Music of the Spheres are not bound suchwise.
Thus, while your quoted dismay at the (hilarious) duality of secret crime and public benificence in your world speaks admirably (if only superficially) of a callow youth and a Vestal mindset, your personal on-campus political attainments -- compounded by disturbingly brazen fraternization with denizens of The Depths such as innkeepers, pols, and webmasters -- is ample testimony to the contrary. You know the game, Missy. You are one of Us. Pretend not.
As Bob Brennan once smilingly insinuated as we gadded noisily about in his ill-gotten helicopter, "I could use a guy like you on my team." Knowing that such an alliance would irretrieveably lower my standing on the Celestial Plane, and despite pleading encouragemants from my all-too-corruptable ex-employee Soda, I wasted no time in exiting the whirlybird, making straight for the S.E.C., where the famously fraudulent Mr. Brennan soon came to grief.
Therefor, my sooth for today, per your comically assumptive request (whyever would you think that I'm asleep at 12:15 AM???) is a deceptively simple quote from WEBSTER'S NEW UNIVERSAL UNABRIDGED DICTIONARY:
"hypocrite:
* a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
*a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements."
Up Here (perhaps not in New Jersey, but definitely in Florida), Hypocrisy is acknowledged, if not embraced, and We are neither shocked nor offended by it. Strive to do likewise if you would not doom yourself to a life of constant rage and inevitable self-loathing. In other words, Wise Ye Up!
Go in peace.
--The Oracle of MOL
BTW: Despite his profound iniquities, Soda's contractual guarantees are honored by me (and several other supernatural entities for whom he has toiled over the years) without question. Anything else would be poor form. Cut Dennis, Frank, and Bob some slack, or let those at SHU who are without sin cast the first stone. |
Stuart0628
Citizen
Username: Stuart0628
Post Number: 81
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 12:10 pm: | |
I'm not a lawyer, not even on TV...
I don't know the exact particulars here, but I would expect that the money would have come from Kozlowski himself, not Tyco.
If SHU is serious about disgorging the money, they would likely contact the judge presiding over the lawsuit for guidance. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 259
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 12:29 pm: | |
Y not -
Sheena Collum Ethics Hall
or maybe
"that building over there" |
bets
Supporter
Username: Bets
Post Number: 2100
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 12:29 pm: | |
quote:corruptable
Apparently, the Oracle failed to look up this simple word in his unabridged dictionary. |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 851
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 12:37 pm: | |
Kristen, I did not mean to suggest that the monies came directly from Tyco, only that most of Kozlowski's wealth came from Tyco, some legally, some illegally.
Given the lawsuits, etc., I think that it is safe to say that, if Seton Hall desired to do so, the money could be given back in a way that enriched those who were wronged, rather than Mr. Kozlowski (as someone had implied earlier). |
mary brenner
Citizen
Username: Marybrenner
Post Number: 27
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 12:57 pm: | |
Unless someone could prove that the monies given to seton hall were not gotten illegally by kozlowski then it should be returned to Tyco |
Kristen Williamson
Citizen
Username: Kris219
Post Number: 64
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 1:01 pm: | |
Why so many Sheena attacks?
Oracle-
1. Beni-ficence is bene-ficence, though I can understand your confusion since both roots have the same meaning.
2. The "queen" is not as callow and vestal as you would love to believe, my friend. Most of us know she is 21 going on 50. She is admirable, but our "on-campus political attainments" are only factors that should, let's say...enhance your admiration, not diminish. And that doesn't have much to do with the Koz situation...though it was an eloquent (if only superficial) thread drift.
Sheena- I think someone liiikes youuuuuu.
Susan, agreed. He lived many lavish years at the cost of others. There is no need to reward a criminal. |
The Oracle of MOL
Supporter
Username: Oracle_of_mol
Post Number: 32
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 3:24 pm: | |
Kristen:
A brief (albeit perhaps somewhat cryptic) clarification, and warranty of naught but positive emanations toward you and your royal homey, to wit:
While "Primum non nocere", commonly translated as "first, do no harm," is often considered to be a corollary to the principle of beneficence, The Law of Beneficence in "The Sufi Message of Hazrat Inayat Khan" teaches this: that goodness is worthwhile which can withstand even badness; that kindness is valuable which can withstand tyranny. Of course, as evidenced by Dennis and his ilk, every mortal is not ready to follow this ideal, which depends one's strength to withstand.
According to your earthly sage Rousseau, ‘benificence’ is the best possible relationship between unequals: one of giving, receiving and repaying benefits. The problem implicit in his writings is, I believe, that of whether it is indeed possible for a just and generous relationship to exist between non-equals. (My malfeasant ex-employee Soda will, however, never accuse me of being other than benificent in my dealings with him.)
You and Her Junglitude may so aspire -- yet never quite achieve -- an "equals" relationship with such as myself.
Apologies. Go in Peace.
--The Oracle of MOL
BTW: I'm fairly certain that your friend Sheena lives by the following interpretation: "By having an ideal and keeping it before her, a person develops sooner or later into that ideal." Admirable, but something of a reach for most mortals. Still...
|
Kristen Williamson
Citizen
Username: Kris219
Post Number: 71
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 3:45 pm: | |
Oracle,
The fact remains that benificence isn't a word. That was my point. But an even better point is how most of your post isn't even yours!! You stole it off the internet .
I ask that you properly cite mortal works when you reuse them as your own.
If you choose to Google these topics to use other's intellectual banter as your own, you must properly credit them or you are a plagiarist, not an oracle.
MLA formatting is more common for citations, so here is the website: http://www.mla.org/ . More information can be found by using Google, since you are so familiar with it.
Other Posters: For fun, try Googling "Beneficence Rousseau". Then select the second link of the results. Then for MORE FUN, read the Oracle's post and see if there is any resemblance.
I believe that we are not equal anymore. Now that I have found your source of knowledge and power, I am above YOU! 
Somewhere, somehow, there is a can of soda that is about to burst. heh. Nice try Oracle. Be original next time, or credit others correctly! |
The Oracle of MOL
Supporter
Username: Oracle_of_mol
Post Number: 33
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 7:13 pm: | |
Child, I have quoted the sources of the teachings you so gleefully "unearthed", and yet the jist of such lessons is forsworn by you? You see nothing of worth in ideas sent through the ether? So be it.
Impish joy as is found in pulling at the hem of garments worn by elders and betters is common to mortals of your age, and We who have observed your race lo these thousand and more years take no offense. As you shall perhaps gain wisdom and soul, such childish jibing shall fall away, and you shall no longer hear the singer, but the song.
But yet again, hear and be warned: such shrill and ungracious boasting as yours may not always fall on ears so kind; the day may yet come when you wish for aid from those you have taunted, whose powers you shall not turn to your will.
Whose garment shall you cling to then?
Go in peace, child, and try to find the good when words of sooth are sent for your betterment. Seek for me elsewhere. I remain.
--The Oracle of MOL |
Kristen Williamson
Citizen
Username: Kris219
Post Number: 75
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 10:23 pm: | |
I wasn't taunting, just merely bringing you back down to earth. I find it interesting that an adult of such age and wisdom needs to use the words of others to portray their message. You acted as if it was your own, and yes that does discredit you, or anyone of any age who decides to use the work of others as their own.
Those who act that way in college are removed from that class and are given a failing grade, because it is not right to steal other's work and act as if it is their own. These students, however, are doing such to achieve grades and a degree. That is disgraceful. A degree should be earned, not stolen.
You, however, are stealing others words in an attempt to eloquently converse with college students who you assume are so naive. That is quite funny to me.
I happened to have benefit from your plagarism because I now know that much more about Kant and Rousseau in the area of Philosophy. Thank you for that. |
bets
Supporter
Username: Bets
Post Number: 2115
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 12:44 am: | |
ugh.
How can I miss you (when you won't go away)? |
Irvington Pirate
Citizen
Username: Irvingtonpirate
Post Number: 29
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 4:12 pm: | |
Sheena said "I'm confidant the building will be renamed. It will probably be brought up at the next Board of Regents meeting which happens quarterly. They will make the final decision on any name changes. But we did change the rec. center and the library - so it would be consistent with what the school has done in the past."
Since when on the name of the library? I never heard that announcement. I've also never heard anyone refer to it as the "University Library", always Walsh. Also, look at the campus map online http://www.shu.edu/admit/tour/shumap.html, #13 is Walsh Library. Here's another look http://www.shu.edu/admit/tour/walsh.html. |
Irvington Pirate
Citizen
Username: Irvingtonpirate
Post Number: 30
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 4:20 pm: | |
ML said "They should name the building after Mark Bryant. If he hadn't gone to SHU to play basketball, the Big East was going to kick the school out of the Big East. How many millions have come to the university courtesy of the Big East conference's revenue sharing?"
Say what? Richie Regan must be rolling in his grave with that remark! SHU does just fine in the Big East. Yes, they struggled in basketball in the beginning but they were never going to be kicked out!
All of that aside, Mark Bryant is a good guy, did nice things while at Seton Hall and in the NBA. |
AntoninaKC
Citizen
Username: Antoninakc
Post Number: 57
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 12:12 am: | |
Irvington- those maps are old. If you go to the library website, you will not see it labeled "Walsh" anywhere on the site... only "University Library" |
Taylor M
Citizen
Username: Anotherusername
Post Number: 497
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 1:58 am: | |
Why not name the GYM after Mark Bryant? |
red_alert
Citizen
Username: Red_alert
Post Number: 148
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 8:17 am: | |
The hall should be named after local government officials with a simliar style of management and spending.
Calabrese Hall
Theroux Hall
Steglitz Hall
... After some thought, that wouldn't be good idea to honor a group that doesn't acknowledge Seton Hall as a part of South Orange. |
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