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Irvington Pirate
Citizen
Username: Irvingtonpirate
Post Number: 31
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 6:10 pm: | 
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building a hotel in town? Seems that with the university just up the street it would be a great way of getting more people into the village. South Orange has some great restaurants and the SOPAC is finally being built. Being near the NJ Transit line would I'm sure would be convenient for out of towners looking to go into New York. Some meeting rooms could bring in a some additional revenue and expand offerings for local businesses. It just amazes me that something like this has never been done. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 2034
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 6:23 pm: |
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You are joking. Right? I thought a hotel was going to part of PAC? |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 1372
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 11:05 pm: |
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The hotel will be a part of the Casino, directly above the new home of the Jets. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 2038
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 1:20 am: |
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So that's why this guy's running around town... |
SO Refugee
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 710
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 9:42 am: |
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A hotel would be a great asset to the village. At the very least, we need some B&Bs. |
jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 116
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 10:24 am: |
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A hotel was frequently mentioned in years goneby by our Village President in talk of revitalizing the downtown. As I recall, a hotel was supposed to be built on the Beifus site. Then there was talk of a hotel on the Gulf station parcel on Valley. I don't know what, if anything, was behind this talk. And I certainly wouldn't want the town to build one and run it on the taxpayers back. However, it does talk to the need of having professional development people involved in the downtown revitalization...people who know how to recruit businesses against a strategic vision for the town and can paint an economically viable picture, and hopefully do so without having to resort to 30 year tax abatements. |
Irvington Pirate
Citizen
Username: Irvingtonpirate
Post Number: 32
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 10:49 am: |
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jayjay you said "And I certainly wouldn't want the town to build one and run it on the taxpayers back."
Could you explain what you mean by that? I know nothing about what goes into building and/or maintaining a hotel. Why would it fall on the taxpayers? I would think that "hotel taxes" and those other additional fees that are tacked on when staying at such an establishment would actually benefit the town. If a Hilton, Days Inn or whatever were to open a hotel in town, I would think that they would be responsible for the operation just like any other business in town.
From your statement I'm thinking I'm missing something. I just think having a hotel in the village would be a win-win for all concerned. |
Irvington Pirate
Citizen
Username: Irvingtonpirate
Post Number: 33
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 10:52 am: |
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Not joking JTA. I know there was talk of a hotel as part of SOPAC at one time but I thought that, as well as other things originally planned, were ultimately scrapped. |
Pdg
Citizen
Username: Pdg
Post Number: 45
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 11:04 am: |
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Not that I'm a pro, but it seems to me that to be successful a hotel should be situated conveniently close to a major highway. We are smack in the middle of 78, 280 and Rt. 10 where there are plenty of hotels already.
And who would STAY at a hotel in S. Orange? Visiting college parents? Or prospective college students? If so, then perhaps SHU should build and run a hotel.
Even a B&B would probably not succeed - it's not like SO/M is some sort of cute little tourist destination. (Love living here, don't get me wrong, but again who would stay at a B&B?)
Any RE developers out there with professional opinions? |
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 459
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 11:14 am: |
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In my person non-professional opinion, I think a hotel would be a great idea. I think the town should operate it. Maybe they can take away more parking and put another hole in the ground. Those holes and dirts patches are getting to be a big draw for the town. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2135
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 11:39 am: |
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A hotel was looked into by developers on more than one occasion. They all felt there would not be enough business to justify one that met their needs. The developers included one has built several in NJ for Marriot.
PDG: More than one study was done regarding who would stay. St. Barnabas seems to have more potential guests than SHU, but still not enough to justify a hotel.
A B & B is a totally different issue. A prospective owner would have to go before the board of adjustment to get a variance. With current housing prices fairly high and our tax structure, it would be more of a labor of love than one for operating profits (that is my opinion based on a discussion with one B & B operator who I met with about opening one). The planning and zoning committee discussed potential requirements for B & B owners just in case someone really wanted to open one.
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Irvington Pirate
Citizen
Username: Irvingtonpirate
Post Number: 35
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 11:57 am: |
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pdg, I would think that people not associated with the university would also use the hotel. Would there be business because of Seton Hall? Certainly, but I'm sure others would be inclined to stay in South Orange. Someone mentioned St. Barnabas, there's also SOPAC, plus with NJ Transit you are just a train ride away from other places you may be doing business that don't offer such accomodations. |
jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 118
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 12:03 pm: |
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Irvington pirate-
I thought you were suggesting that the Village buiild the hotel. Maybe I did not understand what you meant. |
Irvington Pirate
Citizen
Username: Irvingtonpirate
Post Number: 36
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 12:12 pm: |
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No jayjay, not suggesting that at all, the village isn't in that business. What I meant was allowing a hotel to come into the village. I know all towns have rules about what they will and will not allow. Didn't know if South Orange had anything on the books about allowing hotels. I'm under the impression that fast food places (ie Burger King, McDonald's, etc) and chain stores (ie Gap, Barnes & Noble, Victoria's Secret, etc.) apparently aren't allowed in the village. Either that or there are a lot of restrictions on what they can do. Doesn't seem to be any restrictions on the number of beauty supply places in the area though...lol!
Hopefully all of the current dirt piles, craters and 'Coming Soon' signs will quickly turn into viable businesses that benefit everyone in the Village. |
Pdg
Citizen
Username: Pdg
Post Number: 48
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 12:29 pm: |
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Irvington Pirate - I am in complete agreement with your last statement, as is most of MOL.
And thanks, MRosner, for sharing your knowledge of the facts! I had a feeling that developers would not be incentivited enough to actually make the investment.
Of course, if Irvington Pirate thinks its such a great investment idea and wants to put his money where his keyboard is, I truly wish him the best of success and lots of regular hotel guests! (We sure could use the ratable!) |
Pdg
Citizen
Username: Pdg
Post Number: 49
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 12:30 pm: |
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Incentivited? Now I'm making up words... I thought I'd typed incentivized - oops. |
Sheena Collum SHU
Citizen
Username: Sheena_collum
Post Number: 330
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 6:48 pm: |
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It would be nice to offer "something" in South Orange for visiting guests.
It doesn't have to be a huge - just something we can offer to visitors so they don't have to stay at the Newark Airport when they come to S.O.
Irvington Pirate - you're correct - SHU's visitors would def. help. Especially with the amount of tours, conferences, camps, visiting parents, etc... But get this (and I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure this is accurate) - when there were discussions about a possible hotel in the past, the developer wanted SHU to GUARANTEE that they would occupy (40% or 60% or something like that) ALL THE TIME...
... so you can imagine where it went from there
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Pdg
Citizen
Username: Pdg
Post Number: 50
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 6:55 pm: |
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Greedy capitalists! |
Irvington Pirate
Citizen
Username: Irvingtonpirate
Post Number: 38
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 9:17 pm: |
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Sheena - How could they make that sort of demand on the university? Granted, things like move-in weekend, move-out weekend and University Day/Family Weekend would certainly help fill the place not to mention all of the business they would get from athletics but how is Seton Hall supposed to guarentee that? Having a football team would fill the place up for at least six weekends a year but unfortunately Seton Hall doesn't have football. Getting SHU's athletic facilities improved would increase their chances at hosting Big East Conference Championships but with 16 teams currently in the conference you'd probably only be able to host one or two of those championships a year, still it would help. You are right about conferences and visiting parents filling up some space too but this shouldn't all be laid at the feet of SHU to make it a success. There are some in the village who blame SHU for all of their problems as it is, they certainly don't need any more ammo.
Also, how would that sort of guarantee guarentee SHU great service and reasonable prices? YIKES!!
Still, I think a hotel in the Village could work. How many major universities reside in a town that doesn't have a single hotel? However, it seems we'll see more "coming soon" signs than any sign of a hotel in the future. |
Irvington Pirate
Citizen
Username: Irvingtonpirate
Post Number: 39
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 9:23 pm: |
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Pdg - Maybe SHU should consider starting a School of Hotel and Restaurant Management or offering it as a major in the School of Business. That way students could intern at the hotel and help keep the costs down. If I had the money I'd consider it. |
Richard
Citizen
Username: Rikky
Post Number: 4
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 9:37 pm: |
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before the town should even think about a hotel, how about filling up some of those empty stores with something useful for the residents? how about a supermarket? how about a book store? how about a convenience store? seems people don't come too often to the village cause there's no reason to. |
Pdg
Citizen
Username: Pdg
Post Number: 54
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 9:50 pm: |
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And as we all know, parking is a b----! |
hariseldon
Citizen
Username: Hariseldon
Post Number: 386
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 9:54 pm: |
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A hotel would be a great business success. So far all of you are talking about the wrong target markets. The big hotel chains turned down the opportunity because they can not think out of their suburban-office-park boxes.
South Orange is 30 minutes from mid-town Manhattan, where hotel room rates are off the charts. Businessmen and especially foreign tourists (who have a penchant for thrift) would be happy to stay here if the service and ambiance are right. The room rates have to be in the range below $150, with a jitney to Newark airport.
I don't see a lot of big conferences, but there should be party facilities for small meetings, weddings, bar mitzvahs, confirmations, etc.
We should approach small, preferably European hotel operators who will understand and can also make connections to European tourist agencies. |
Sheena Collum SHU
Citizen
Username: Sheena_collum
Post Number: 335
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 11:49 pm: |
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IP - Couldn't agree with you more. I imagine if SHU said they'd fill it every single day of the year any owner would want to bring a hotel here, lol.
Hariseldon - Didn't think of it that way - that's a great point. |
Irvington Pirate
Citizen
Username: Irvingtonpirate
Post Number: 40
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 8, 2005 - 1:01 am: |
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People in the Village need a little more vision and can't seem to get out of their own way at times. I like Richard's ideas too. A Barnes and Noble would be pretty cool. What the Village absolutely doesn't need is another beauty supply store or "coming soon" sign...haven't they reached their quotas on those yet? Another thing I'd love to see is a real diner, one that stays open 24/7. A place like that could make a real killing! |
jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 120
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 8, 2005 - 8:13 am: |
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I know I sound like a broken record, but that's where pros in the field of development would make a big difference. We keep getting the BOT's ad hoc approach to the downtown, and this is the result. I personally think that spending money on a professional would gain the town a lot more that the $250,000 for the Tony Smith sculpture. Maybe such a pro would not have to be a permanent employee, but work on a contractual basis for a period of time. Maybe then we would have some vision, strategy, and actions which make real business sense, not this nonsense which is going on now.
Think about this. What kind of vision can be crafted and implemented by a Village President whose own store looks like it does? Then take a look at Westfield, Summit, Red Bank or Englewood and how they came to be. Granted that South Orange may have some unique problems, but not insurmountable ones in the right hands. |
Pdg
Citizen
Username: Pdg
Post Number: 57
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 8, 2005 - 9:37 am: |
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Hi and sorry for my ignorance, but what is this Tony Smith sculpture? Is the town really spending $250K for artwork??? Is this a done deal? It seems like everyone already knows, so sorry for asking for a repeat. Thanks! |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 892
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 8, 2005 - 9:47 am: |
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PDG, do a keyword search and read the thread on it...all the info is there, and yes, it seems to be a done deal. |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 7078
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Monday, August 8, 2005 - 9:48 am: |
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A hotel would be belly-up in a year.
1. You'd have to spend money or cast a magic spell to convince business travellers that South Orange isn't "one of the other Oranges".
2. For NYC-bound travellers, you'd have to convince them that Jersey City and Secaucus don't exist (and they have a view).
3. There are no corporate parks nearby to service. Most business travellers stay within 3 miles of their destination.
4. There's not enough parking for a transient population large enough to make a hotel profitable (+ staff).
5. Taxes are too high, so room rates will be too high.
I'll take the sculpture. We won't have to worry about how to reuse it because it won't fail.
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Grspring
Citizen
Username: Grspring
Post Number: 28
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 8, 2005 - 10:20 am: |
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Here's a thought. How about feasibility studies on major town developments. Make them public. Profit. Loss. Pro. Con.
As far as I know we do not have one fot the SOPAC. Nor has anyone ever seen the plans for the inside. Is it a theater or a performance stage. Big difference.
By this time into development I would expect to see a model of the interior and the drawings, elevations and floor plans displayed somewhere in town.
Studies should be done for any major development being considered by the town. And I mean an outside independant study.
g |
Parkingsux
Citizen
Username: Parkingsux
Post Number: 72
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 8, 2005 - 10:25 am: |
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And where is the parking plan?  |
Pdg
Citizen
Username: Pdg
Post Number: 59
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 8, 2005 - 10:26 am: |
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Susan1014 - just tried your suggestion and found ancient threads going back to 2003. Is there anyone else out there willing to update, or do I really have to spend my morning reading posts from the past two years?
Is S.O. buying a $250K sculpture of a stupid orange on a pole? The one in front of the school is annoying enough, but the trees hide it somewhat. I sort of remember an article years ago about another larger one with lights in it at night, being considered. I HOPE that is not going to be built!!!!
I agree there are better uses of 1/4 million dollars for our township. (There are better uses for $100 for our township - art is so personal, isn't it?)
And Dave, I think one of the old posts was from you, saying that the orange citrus fruit has nothing to do with the name of the oranges. (Which I would agree with given our climate!) Do you know the origin of the names? (Or are you going to tell me to look it up in ancient threads?)
The town's official, official website has the outline of an orange in the header, so I guess the town really believes in the fruit. (Although they seem to want to overlook the ever-so-important "South" which differentiates us from Orange, NJ. Perhaps the huge lighted orange will have a compass on it, pointing South?)
Thanks again to all you regulars who are totally up to date on this topic! Appreciate the help and patience!  |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 7079
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Monday, August 8, 2005 - 10:56 am: |
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recent sculpture debate
/discus/messages/3133/84938.html
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susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 894
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 8, 2005 - 3:36 pm: |
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The short version...
South Orange/private donors are paying a discount price for a major piece of modern art by the most famous visual artist to have practiced his trade in South Orange. Very modern, of a style with many detractors, but nothing to do with oranges on poles. (I'm OK with the sculpture, but not sure that the town chose the right site for it!)
It is supposed to be paid for mainly by fundraising, but I don't have clarity on how the fundraising is going, while the town is going forward with its share of the spending. |
Pdg
Citizen
Username: Pdg
Post Number: 66
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 8, 2005 - 3:49 pm: |
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Thankssusan1014! I actually found the link Dave nicely provided. Appreciate you taking the time to explain - and I apologize for the thread drift.
Back to the hotel topic - and Dave, I completely agree with your succinct belly-up conclusion. |
Parkingsux
Citizen
Username: Parkingsux
Post Number: 74
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 8, 2005 - 4:02 pm: |
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How's the fundraising for SOPAC going? Any news? How about the investment of $100k in the other SOPAC promoter, what happened to him? You would think he would at least raise the amount he was paid, no?  |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 808
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 8, 2005 - 4:08 pm: |
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Hotels must operate at an average of 70-80% occupancy for each night. Even a small hotel in South Orange, say 30 rooms (which is smaller than just about any chain hotel) would find it near impossible to manage such an occupancy rate. The result would be that this hotel would be forced to take in monthly subsidized patrons at government rates. Translation: Welfare Hotel. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 1375
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 8, 2005 - 11:43 pm: |
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I think Dave and Brett have it pegged. I'd like some of whatever those who believe SO could support a hotel are smoking.
I'd love to believe SO could keep a hotel in bueinss. But there is just no way. I've been a business traveler (>1 million miles in 10 years). There's no way I would stay this far outside a city, unelss they moved Las Vegas just outside LA.
College business is too sparse and sporadic throughout the year.
And we're not exactly a tourist spot. |
Debra Davidson
Citizen
Username: Peanutslady
Post Number: 39
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 1:04 am: |
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Hariseldon I agree with you 100% a hotel would be great. How about a small hotel over the new stores that are going up in the Biuffiss site. It is right next to the train station. It would be very convent to those that have to be here on business and or people just visiting familles, friends and Seaten Hall students they can just take a train to NY, Newark, Summit or any place on the train line. They can even take a bus to many deferent places to if they do not drive. The Hotel will also be near major high ways like 22, 10, GSPW, Turn Pike and 78. I'm all for a hotel. I think a hotel will do great business here in South Orange. |
Dust Buster
Citizen
Username: Coyote
Post Number: 45
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 9:37 am: |
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The hotel was planned for the fire department building before the South Orange Historic Preservation Society had it put on the State and National Registers of Historic Places and saved it from Distruction. |
SO1969
Citizen
Username: Bklyn1969
Post Number: 89
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 9:17 am: |
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Anyone looking for accommodations should look for the B&B in Maplewood - forget the name. It is run by Art - one of the owners of Here's to the Arts Cafe in downtown Maplewood.
We stayed a couple nights when we were having some work done at our house. Neat, large old house. We were pleased. I think SHU is probably a significant source of customers for him.
I agree with mrosner, someone looking to start one at today's prices would have a very hard time making it. I don't know how long Art has owned his, but I think a while. It is a large Queen Anne house - much larger than anything in the surrounding neighborhood, so I think he probably got a good deal on it - and that was probably 10, 15 or more years ago. |
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