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Richard
Citizen
Username: Rikky
Post Number: 7
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 12:51 am: | 
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Well it's nice to see I've spurred such healthy dialogue on this topic!
What continues to trouble me is you have a town with very high property taxes, housing which is pretty much past affordability for step-ups from condos and first time buyers, too many empty storefronts and no acknowledgement by the BOT that there might be something wrong with this picture. I spoke with Mark the parking commissioner when first inquiring about the town before moving here. He says, and I quote 'Our biggest challenge is giving people a reason to come to the village, particularly the people on the hill'. Maybe he's onto something?
In regards to the property appreciation being a shining example of why people moved here. For the last few years all boats have risen. The only places that haven't seen significant appreciation is a few midwestern towns. What you're also seeing is an influx of Manhattanites who are selling their 2-bedroom 800 sq ft apartments for $900k and 'trading up' into houses in SO and Maplewood. They're playing with house money so no skin off their backs. I've spoken to a few new residents and this seems to be the common story. Location location location is the main attraction because of the train into NYC. Heck you have to work in NYC to afford today's prices! A few mentioned liking the South Mountain reservation (which I also think is great by the way).
I don't think anyone is saying turn South Orange into Millburn/Summit/Westfield. Just fill those empty stores up with useful things and give people more of a reason to 'come down off the hill' and spend time in town and get to know your community and your neighbors. |
Debra Davidson
Citizen
Username: Peanutslady
Post Number: 29
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 3:14 am: |
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I wish there more boutique type of stores in South Orange. I have lived here for about 17 years. South Orange has way to many nail places, there are more beauty shops in this town then one town needs. There to many chines and pizza place in town that at one time me and parents were calling South Orange Chinese and pizza town. What South Orange needs is more divers shops and restaurants. The best store in South Orange is Commuter Comic at 60 West South Orange Ave. It is such a welcoming place to go into. The service is impeccable. South Orange needs to have stores like a book store, a CD store, a crafts store, a supermarket, a gift store, a card store, a shoe store and more diverse restaurants. What ever happened to the South Orange downtown Arts show held on South Orange Ave and Slone Street? It always brought more people SO. I would love to see South Orange bring back the art show. I would love to see South Orange have more stores like the great Commuter Comics. |
Pdg
Citizen
Username: Pdg
Post Number: 88
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 8:50 am: |
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I know of two cute little boutiquey stores that would have moved into town if the rents were affordable. One was this adorable kids clothing line, Keedo, from S. Africa. Pricey stuff, but so unique and comfortable and cute!
Too bad that some of us, who so badly want to enjoy shopping in S.O. more than is currently possible, don't have the bucks to buy some of the buildings and rent them out reasonably to the tenants we talk about on MOL. The landlords can't seem to see the big picture, or they see it, but simply don't care.
Main Street South Orange (which always needs volunteers!) has worked for years to help out with this problem and actually encourage new desirable businesses to try S. Orange. Though they've had some successes, the bottom line is you can't force a landlord to accept a tenant they don't want or to lower their rents to something nice little shops could manage.
We wouldn't even have a great little toy store in town if he didn't have another retailer to share the space with! Excellent owner - great toy selection for the size of his space, great free gift wrapping, very friendly owner - he is struggling, so if you like that type of store, go SHOP there! (I'm having a brain cramp and can't think of the name and can't find it on google and sadly, www.southorangevillage.com has no business listings...but its next to the Hot Bagels store on S.O. Ave. Can't miss the cute toys in his half of the window display!)
If we don't make a point of SHOPPING in the stores that we DO like being in our town, they will close. Remember the boutique baby clothing/toy store that used to be where the Goat is now? Sure, I enjoy the Goat better, but if you do too, we need to go there and buy coffee, lunch, snacks or who knows what will be there in two years?
Think about shopping S.O. Village FIRST, even if it isn't as convenient as it would be in a perfect world. Show the businesses there that we CARE that they succeed and that we appreciate their struggle to make it (and the taxes they pay through their rent).
It's basic supply and demand. Retailers want shoppers, so if you want to make a difference in town, shop South Orange! The more businesses that truly succeed, the more businesses will be attracted to S.O. and its eager shoppers - hopefully the landlords will stop raising the rents for a minute...
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Pdg
Citizen
Username: Pdg
Post Number: 89
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 8:55 am: |
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Hey Dave, why no businesses listing on the SouthOrangeVillage.com site? I know I'd use it! |
Daniel M. Jacobs, PP, AICP
Supporter
Username: Conrail
Post Number: 56
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 9:14 am: |
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The toy store (which is very, very good) is called Joggin' Your Noggin' or something close to that . . . |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2151
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 10:33 am: |
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PDG: Well said.
Debra: We had all those stores and they all left because they were not supported for a variety of reasons, but the one cited most often was people preferred to go to a mall for more choices and lower prices.
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jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 127
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 10:56 am: |
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Its the old adgage of build a better mousetrip and they will buy it. Downtown retail shops cannot afford to be "ho-hum". They MUST provide a superior shopping experience if they hope to draw from the malls. If they can't, they are toast. They cannot rely on the good intentions of the populace to support them. They have got to figure it out. Sometimes its about convenience, sometimes about courtesy and helpfulness of the staff, sometimes its about the look of the place. But don't expect to get my business because I feel charitable. My charity dollars go elsewhere. |
Pdg
Citizen
Username: Pdg
Post Number: 95
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 11:40 am: |
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Yes, Jayjay, but if it's the town you LIVE in and complain about, then it's not really charity to use the stores that have taken a huge financial gamble in your town. If you don't like specifics about their store, offer suggestions before running to the mall. The retailers do their best homework and guess what is needed in a location before they commit and put themselves out there.
With the cost of gas, parking VERY far from the entrance (unless you're handicapped) and all the walking you do to get around once inside the mall, South Orange is really not that bad. Fresh air, a little walk, maybe see some neighbors while you're there, and a little good feeling of civic pride may even creep in. Sure you may have to circle 2 times to find a spot, but it is rare that there is not a single spot anywhere. And start to finish, you probably spend less time (and less money, frankly) than a trip to the malls takes!
And if you shop primarily the internet for a couple bucks savings, then you really can't complain about the empty store fronts in your town, can you?
I don't buy something I don't want just to help out a S.O. store, but I usually try those stores FIRST, and I will make suggestions if I don't see what I'm looking for. How can the stores know what they are doing right/wrong if they have to guess? |
jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 128
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 12:32 pm: |
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I feel like a broken record, but restaurants work in downtowns because they are convenient and offer better eating than at most of the malls, and have an ambience that's unique. Banks in a downtown are more convenient than going to a mall. That's why you see mostly banks and restaurants in the downtown. I admit its a harder road for stores which directly compete with the mall, but few, if any, of the stores in town are targetting the demographics of the residents including the students of Seton Hall. Take a walk in Madison and see what stores are there and how they work for residents and students.
In our town, you get stores like South Mountain Jean who are out to make a quick buck, but don't care about appearance of the place one iota. I should support them to buy clothes? You've got to be kidding. |
Pdg
Citizen
Username: Pdg
Post Number: 99
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 12:56 pm: |
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Did Madison happen overnight? I'm not familar with the evolution and don't shop there (I actually only go there for the awesome, huge playground we parents call "castle park".)
Also don't you think people around here would completely freak out if traffic moved as slowly on S.O. Avenue as it does on Main St. through Chatham and Madison.
Glad you enjoy our great restaurants - several years ago you would have been able to complain about that as well. The evolution of a downtown takes time AND the deliberate support of the town's residents. Don't like S.Mountain Jean (never heard of them - Dave that businesses listing would be really helpful right about now!), tell the owner why he/she doesn't get your business - make a positive suggestion.
But are there any S.O. retail establishments that sell things you DO want/like, and that seem to be TRYING to succeed (read "make a buck" -- why do YOU work JJ?) Why not do your town a service by patronizing the local stores.
Call it charity if you must, but it beats a dead downtown full of banks and empty storefronts! Even restaurant patrons would enjoy strolling a street window-shopping while waiting for a table.
Off to the P.O. to mail packages and then a quick stop at Hot Bagels for lunch - my daughter loves the freshwater fish tank they have for the pleasure of their customers! Then to the Farmer's Market at the Duck Pond! |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2159
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 2:11 pm: |
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Main Street keeps a business listing on their website: http://www.mainstreetsouthorange.org/
Just click on the shoppers tab. |
Pdg
Citizen
Username: Pdg
Post Number: 105
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 2:40 pm: |
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Yes, but sadly it's neither complete, nor up to date. (no Voro, no Niecy, no toy store, Town Hall Deli is still listed, NorCrown bank is still listed...that's just what I notice & I sure don't know all the businesses in town!)
MSSO does a tremendous lot of good for this town, and I support them and thank them tremendously, but I think they are really strapped volunteer-wise and buget-wise. |
Sheena Collum SHU
Citizen
Username: Sheena_collum
Post Number: 355
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 2:57 pm: |
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The only reason I use to go to "the mall" instead of our wonderful businesses was parking and parking only.
But since I met a lot of the business owners, it's worth a couple trips around town to go support them & I hope everyone else does the same.
SIDE NOTE: With the new Bike Plan, it really should help with the problems we have seen downtown.
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jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 129
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 3:58 pm: |
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Pdg-
I don't think 15 years is waiting too long for something positive in the downtown. Its not about "deliberate support" of the residents. Its about professional development people who know what they're doing, landlords who see value beyond the tax breaks of keeping empty store fronts, and business people who know about the principles of good business. The shopper is the last person in the chain. The other elements have to be there first.
I think you should go into South Mountain Jean store and then weigh in on this. Compare it to the outerwear store in Madison, whose name escapes me at the moment, the next time you visit the park in Madison. |
Richard
Citizen
Username: Rikky
Post Number: 9
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 5:06 pm: |
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jayjay, i agree with you. it seems much of this is about getting a professional developer in here to come up with an achievable plan broken into phases and success criteria. does anyone know if this has been tried before or is it all piecemeal? |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 8993
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 5:10 pm: |
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I believe your board of trustees made an active decision not to hire professional developers. |
Pizzaz
Supporter
Username: Pizzaz
Post Number: 2227
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 6:52 pm: |
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active decision, no such thing ... 
It's one way or no way. And yes, it's coming soon. |
Pdg
Citizen
Username: Pdg
Post Number: 112
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 10:03 am: |
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JayJay - you've truly seen nothing positive in our downtown in 15 years? Is that fair?
What about everything Main Street South Orange has done and is still doing? What about Sloan Street? (See before and after pictures on MSSO website.) What about the great new restaurants and businesses people are talking about here on MOL?
And as any retailer will tell you, the shopper is THE KEY to a retailer's success. NOT the "last person in the chain" as you stated. Just check out that new nail place in Maplewood - I think it's Leo's. They have a great location, they made a major capital improvements inside and the place looks clean and very nice. But people are boycotting it - Maplewood's residents simply did not WANT another nail salon and are speaking with their wallets. The manicurists are sitting around with nothing to do most of the day, at least that I've noticed, and I have friends who refuse to go there and would rather wait in line at Lee Nails.
My point is, the opposite can happen just as deliberately, especially with a town that is struggling to get started, like ours. So, speak to the stores/businesses that you do like having in town with your own wallet. Even if they are a little inconvenient and even if they cost a few dollars more. Isn't the success of YOUR town worth it?
Most of the redevelopment certainly could have been done more efficiently, more effectively and smarter. No one would dispute that and we all have fun with the "coming soon" jokes.
But I don't understand how a professional development consultant could force our local landlords to rent their properties at price levels that the cool little retailers we all wish for could afford. Or how you can force the landlords to see a big picture if they just don't get that they will ultimately do better if the entire town does better, which includes renting to tenants that might not be as top-notch as another bank. Should the town condemn every empty store front, and every building that leases to a tenant that we don't want? Should our town be in the business of being a landlord? Of course not.
It seems to me that they (BOT) are trying with the DMC. But it is expensive and not easy to get a business owner to see the wisdom in taxing themselves further to help the business of their neighbor and/or competitor.
I bet Pizzaz would have a much more educated grasp of what I'm trying to say - I believe he is experienced in more than one way on this topic.
Have a nice day. |
jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 132
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 10:17 am: |
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PDG-
I said it once and will again. If you want the end result that we all want, then you've got to get professionals involved. If it is that much of a priority, you put your money where your mouth is. You don't go piddling money on removing gazebos just recently installed to make room for some scultpure, no matter how grand. You make business recruitment number one, hire a pro and get going. Such a pro would know what tools are best utilized to get it off the ground and in a strategic direction. Other towns have done this. There are models out there. It CAN'T be some ad hoc approach which is what we have now.
I agree that the town looks better in by the train station. But frankly there were some shady sweetheart deals that got that going. I am sick of "secret negotiations" as the modus operandi this town utilizes. Let's get a pro, get things out in the open and use all tools at the towns disposal to make it happen.
PS. I noticed you ducked the question of whether you would go into South Mountain Jeans to buy clothes. I hear its owned by 2 guys from Milburn who wouldn't dare open such a store in that town! |
Pdg
Citizen
Username: Pdg
Post Number: 113
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 10:48 am: |
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Jay Jay, not ducking, just not in the market for jeans at the moment. But, I promise the next time I notice them while in town, I will go in. And you know what? If I wouldn't shop there, I will TELL them and will tell them WHY in the hopes that they are not just in business to torment YOU and actually would prefer to succeed!
You, on the other hand, refuse to acknowledge that I've agreed with you about the better prospects of redevelopment w/professionals. You also ignore the efforts and progress that HAVE been made.
You are nothing but negative  and seem quite unwilling to do anything to help the situation, including simply agreeing to shop the stores you DO appreciate in town.
Frankly, it seems you are unhappy living in S. Orange and might want to consider trading places with those clamoring to move in to town, and pushing our housing values through the roof! 15 years is a LONG time for anyone to be so miserable - your house must be worth many times what you paid 15 years ago.
If you're not part of the solution...
Enjoy the day!  |
Pdg
Citizen
Username: Pdg
Post Number: 114
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 10:59 am: |
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And JJ, thanks (really!!) for mentioning the gazebo/fountain thing!
I am very much opposed to the "gift" of a MONSTER sculpture (yes, folks, 20 FEET by 25 FEET!) that Bill C. and friends are quietly trying to get installed in place of the fountain/gazebo - right across from our firehouse - for a mere $440K total! (The gift has been defined as something like the right to build the design only.) The sculpture is called "Tao" which as you know is a Greek letter. This one is a very large, metal, 3 dimensional, black letter.
Gifts should cost the recipient nothing, recently built and plumbed gazebos and fountains should NOT be torn down as if they cost us nothing, and the bottom line is the public should be informed and encouraged to participate in dialogue before this is a done deal!
Interested? See the thread about Art in Public Places (including pictures in the archived threads of an actual sculpture of Tao in front of a Hunter college building)
"Coming Soon" Sheena will be circulating a petition! We need to act sooner than later, b/c this is already a done deal in some minds! |
jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 133
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 1:02 pm: |
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PDG-
May I relate a situation to you? Many years ago, there was a store called Cuozzo's MArket in town which looked awful. Even had iron roll down gates in front. I went in to talk to the store owner about ways he could improve his business. He wanted to hear nothing of it, and told me to move out of town. (Muck like you said, PDG!) I realized then, that that approach is futile. A business owner either gets it or doesn't, and nothing I could offer would change things. So now I vote with my wallet.
This is my town too. And, I want it to improve. If my methods are not in sync with what you believe, I can't help that. But, better government, which is out in the open, that is professionally run, is what I'm lobbying for. I am sick of "closed door" politics, sweet heart deals, and 30 yr pilots as the means to downtown improvement.
I will not support businesses who do not improve the town, but diminsh it. But I also will not move because you say so. I'll keep fighting the good fight.
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Pdg
Citizen
Username: Pdg
Post Number: 115
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 3:46 pm: |
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There's just no getting through to you JJ, so fight on.
(look carefully, no one told you to move.)
Hey, Dave! Any way to get a cool emoticon with a head being repeatedly banged against a brick wall? |
Richard
Citizen
Username: Rikky
Post Number: 11
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 11:19 pm: |
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you can shop in some of the existing stores AND hire a professional so you're both right. this town NEEDS a professional. the old adage you get what you pay for is true in all cases, even this. you want to do a hack job at building a multi-year development effort to save a few bucks? not worth it in the end. i've never heard the word developer come up anywhere connected to the BOT. |
Debra Davidson
Citizen
Username: Peanutslady
Post Number: 31
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 7:25 pm: |
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If South Orange dose not have a developer then who is developing the places in town that I hear about all the time that under development? For all the projects I keep hearing about you must have a developer. If you do not you most likely 99% will end up with buildings that never meat the code requirements and ultimately can never be used do to all the code violations and the very, very high cost of money that must be spent to fix those violations. I'm 99% sure that South Orange dose not have that kind of money that it will cost the town by not using developer. A developer knows how to get the job done safely and with minimal to no code violations. The most important thing is a developer knows how to build safe buildings Without a developer there could be fare to many law suits if people get hurt or possibly getting killed in these new South Orange buildings. That is something the town cannot afford at all. |
jayjay
Citizen
Username: Jayjayp
Post Number: 144
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 7:53 pm: |
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Debra-
You are missing the point. The board of trustees has not engaged the services of professional people who know how to "develop" a downtown. Instead, people come to them with intentions to "develop" particular parcels. They negotiate with the BOT, often in secrecy, and often emerge with sweetheart deals, like 30 year tax abatements. Most of these people have not developed properties before, and we wind up with vacant sites until they get their ducks in a row. Please, don't confuse the person developing the property with the role of a professional development person working for the town.
If the town had a professional whose job it was to strategically seek out and work with private developers, we might have a shot at a better outcome, than what we've got now. For example, are 30 year tax abatements a common practice or not? Did Englewood or RedBank use them? Are first time developers the best people for projects which are the centerpiece of the downtown? These things could be better handled by a pro, not by the BOT on an ad hoc basis. |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 924
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 10:27 pm: |
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In theory, a developer to oversee downtown redevelopment could be a fine idea.
I'm just not sure that I trust our BOT to hire the right developer, as opposed to another sweetheart deal...done wrong, hiring a town developer sounds like a way to piss away a lot of money.
I love South Orange, but am becoming a cynic about local politics, as well as national. |
Richard
Citizen
Username: Rikky
Post Number: 15
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 12:04 am: |
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as they say, the proof is in the pudding. look at the downtown, see how long it's been that way and ask yourself the question. has the party responsible for the village (aka BOT) done a good job? if there are reasons why they haven't sufficiently addressed this, please lets hear them.
me thinks the BOT is old school politics, plain and simple. the old timers have a grasp on power, and they're not about to let things get too crazy. the only people that can do anything about this are the residents with your vote. |
Sheena Collum SHU
Citizen
Username: Sheena_collum
Post Number: 371
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 3:36 am: |
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I think it comes down to one simple thing and that is having "professionals" working in conjunction with the BOT.
Check out Maplewood's redevelopment plans on their website. They are out of this world. I've never seen a document like that come out of South Orange.
(PLEASE NOTE: GO READ THE SID THREAD TO SEE MORE BENEFITS OF HAVING AN INDEPENDENT PROFESSIONAL...)
And I don't think it has to be so drastic as having to "vote" people out in order to make change. Didn't work this year & no one can wait another 2 years to see progress.
People need to go to the BOT meetings... write letters, CALL, etc. that's all I hafta say about that. |
Debra Davidson
Citizen
Username: Peanutslady
Post Number: 33
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 4:27 pm: |
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Jayjay,
I know the town dose not have a professional developer and that is why it is taking so long for the town to get things done. Thank you so very much for answering my question about who is doing the developing if the town is not using a professional developer. The only reason I can come up with as to why South Orange is not using a professional developer is money. But in the long run the town is going to lose more money by not using a professional developer. Look how long it is taking to get things done that we were primmest be started or near completion. Doesn't the town realize that it is loosing more money by not hiring a professional developer to do the job? I wish the town would get it's act together and hire a professional developer, so we can get the things that are primmest to us without have to weight years for them. |
Vertifly
Citizen
Username: Vertifly
Post Number: 87
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 11:20 pm: |
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Is it possible that the property tax on commercial buildings are also a bit high?
This could have a direct affect on the cost of running a business in the downtown area. I am only speculating on the cost being high, but if it is anything comparable to housing tax, and relatively more expensive than residential (which is normally the case) then it must be a challenge.
The cost of most items in town is more expensive...from the sushi, to coffee, to water, or a sandwich, etc. Everything seems about 15% overpriced. Perhaps that is just what these businesses need to do to keep running.
The cost of running a business coupled with a lack of customer-volume must make it difficult. We need more investors to come in. More residences in town. Build more more more! |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 7192
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 11:28 pm: |
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Actually, more residential development increases the school population and the school budget, which make up the bulk of property taxes. |
Vertifly
Citizen
Username: Vertifly
Post Number: 88
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 11:32 pm: |
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True, but relatively speaking (that is - per capita), they are high. |
Debra Davidson
Citizen
Username: Peanutslady
Post Number: 37
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 12:17 am: |
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I have an idea, but I do not know if the town will go for it. How about letting a new business not have to pay taxes or have them pay redused taxs to the town for one year, so they can build up a regular cliental instead of being price out of business. I also think that the landlords should give the new business brake in there rent for the first year of there rental agreement. I feel this will also help the new business be able to build up a regular cliental. I strongly think if these things are done it will help a new business to be able to afford to stay in business here in South Orange. |
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