| Author | Message | |||
     Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 6990 Registered: 4-1997  |
What if we use it as a traffic slowing device? Then it may be covered under a DOT grant. | |||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 780 Registered: 4-2004  |
It is a pretentious, overpriced eyesore. This Village is hardly lacking in those. | |||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 856 Registered: 3-2002 |
South Orange is different from the town where I grew up, and people like Tony Smith are part of the reason. While my hometown was giving us Gordon Jump (of WKRP in Cincinnati), South Orange was giving us a world-renowned and provocative sculptor, as well as a wide variety of entertainers. I think that we need to very seriously consider accepting a Tony Smith sculpture, even if the town shoulders a modest portion of the cost. However, it does seem like this is another project rushing forward in advance of a fund-raising plan. I do wonder if the sculpture would have more impact (albeit fewer daily viewers) in a different location. What about the top of the stairs from the train lot to the arches (adjacent to SOPAC, rather than blocking sightlines in the traffic circle)? What about over by Flood's Hill? Has an artist been involved in thinking about sites, or only the BOT? Im not so concerned about preserving the Gazebo, which I think of as the bird-guano Hilton based on my last visit there -- cute, but a bit of a place-holder -- however, I'm not sure the site is scaled to the sculpture. I'm also concerned about ramping up fund raising for this at the same time that we are likely to be kicking off real fund raising for SOPAC. I wonder if it wouldn't be prudent to ask the Smith family for a delay in their gift (and it is a gift, since that is an edition that cannot be sold to anyone else), until this other major project is in place? However, I definitely need to understand why we are moving to spend tax dollars on site planning before we are sure we can raise the funds for acquisition! Finally, to those of you who want to put up statues of our most famous high school graduates, a total YUCK. Very Disneyland, very lowbrow. Let's absolutely create display cases in SOPAC, solicit donations of momentos, and create a tribute to the many artists who have been long-term residents. But statues of the Shues on a public plaza????? Personally, I'd like to think that we will manage to acquire this sculpture, by a major local figure, but with only limited investment to the town. I'd like to think we site it thoughtfully, to the place that best suits it. I'd like to think that, in high school, my daughter will be visiting it as part of her attempt to understand the many forms that 20th century art has taken, and what they meant in the context of the artists and the time. There are two issues here. One is the sculpture (and I blush to think that Tony Smith's family might read some of what is posted here!). The other is the BOT process. Both are obviously contentious, and in need of thoughtful discussion. | |||
| Nicholas Holmes Citizen Username: Downthedoor Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2005 |
Maybe the town should sell naming rights to the Sculpture. It would raise some money, and I hear Koslowski will soon be looking for something to put his name on in town. Dennis Koslowski presents an original copy of Tony Smith's world-renowned sculpture 'Not in My Town.' | |||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 782 Registered: 4-2004 |
Take a poll of Village residents and see how many have even heard of Tony Smith. I've spent nearly 50 years here and first encountered the name on this thread. I confess to being uninformed in matters of art, but I would think the name would have cropped up at some point nonetheless. I don't seriously advocate a statue of anybody, but unless this piece of art is paid for by the private donations referred to above it is an extravagant purchase of a reproduction, and nothing more. South Orange is attemping to erect a theater with no clear vision of its operation or how to pay for it. Let's figure that out before we sortie into the realm of collecting "important" artwork that we can't afford. One ill-conceived aesthetic venture at a time... | |||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 765 Registered: 5-2003 |
I just drove by the gazebo tonight after dinner in town. People were sitting on the benches around the gazebo, and the fountains were playing. It was a lovely, peaceful sight. It would be a shame to tear it down to make way for a minimalst monolith (is that an oxymoron?), as well as an unjustifiable expense. | |||
| Dust Buster Citizen Username: Coyote Post Number: 29 Registered: 4-2005 |
The sculpture should should be made 5 feet x 5 feet and put it in the circle in front of the theater. I am sure that the town used public grant monies to build the gazebo and the surroundings. The grant people might get very upset if we squander their money. Has the location of the statue gotten approval from the New Jersey State Historic Preservation Organization? | |||
| Taylor M Citizen Username: Anotherusername Post Number: 499 Registered: 8-2004 |
What a waste of money. If this is a true 'gift' it shouldn't cost the taxpayers ANYTHING! Why is the town spending money on this when we could use the money to hire more police? Or what about using the money to fix the air-conditioning in the library? I'm sure there is no shortage of things the money could be used for. | |||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 301 Registered: 4-2005  |
Lizziecat - agree, I was there last night and there was about 5-10 people. I think a lot of people are very proud to say South Orange is the home to this artist but maybe it's just not the time (unless there's a lot of money sitting around somewhere) or appropriate location (NOT Sloan Street). What do you guys think of Grove Park? I was there this weekend and it was beautiful and I think the statue would look beautiful there. | |||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 331 Registered: 1-2004  |
Problem solved by the BOT by hiring "professionals". 1. Resolution to Engage the Professional Services of SESI Consulting Engineers to Perform Engineering and Landscape Architecture Services for the Design of Site Improvements for the Tony Smith Sculpture. | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2630 Registered: 5-2001  |
What will this cost TAXPAYERS? If it is more than 10 cents, I hope the BOT has the common sense to VOTE THIS DOWN | |||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 678 Registered: 10-2004 |
The close minded have spoken. Long live the close minded. | |||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 303 Registered: 4-2005 |
It's not close- minded AlleyGater. It's simply another opinion. If you could find a way to finance this piece as well as give a reasonable place to put it - the "close-minded" would be a lot more open minded. There's several projects currently going on that are in dire need of funding and you need to set priorities. Art IS very subject, but I think residents are more worried about the finances of it than anything else. I worry about that and where the piece best fits in. It's great to recognize an artist who's from S.O. - that's truly an honor but there is a lot to take into consideration. | |||
| AntoninaKC Citizen Username: Antoninakc Post Number: 60 Registered: 5-2005  |
Brett Weir-- I have never heard of Tony Smith either..... Sheena-- I agree Sloan street is definitely not the best location for this piece Taylor M-- you said it best: a gift should be a gift and not cost the residents any money | |||
| Stuart0628 Citizen Username: Stuart0628 Post Number: 92 Registered: 2-2003 |
Can we keep separate the issues of (a) the aesthetics of this sculpture; (b) how are we going to pay for it. | |||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 61 Registered: 5-2004 |
OK, finally found this thread - thanks for the link Dave! MRosner, what is the latest on this topic? I'm on a learning curve very late in the discussion and am very interested, especially in what is a done deal, what involvement will be asked of the citizens of S.Orange regarding any further decisions and, most important, exactly what the costs are to the taxpayers: *What was the cost to erect the gazebo and fountain originally, including plumbing? * What will be the cost to remove them? * What are all the costs involved in the planning of removal and planning for the sculpture? * And last, but not least, what will be the cost to the taxpayers, of getting such a sculpture in place? Thanks so much for the update! | |||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2138 Registered: 4-2002 |
The hope is to have grant money and private funds pay for most of the statue. I don't have the original costs of the Gazebo and fountain. The gazebo will be placed in a different location (yet to be determined). Total cost of the project is $440,000. The actual cost to taxpayers will depend on how much money is raised, but I am guesstimating it will be about $150,000 (Bill Calabrese says it will be less). | |||
| Parkingsux Citizen Username: Parkingsux Post Number: 73 Registered: 6-2005 |
Why not incorporate it into Floods Hill (Meade Street side). Let it be able to be viewed from a distance. The art takes on different perceptions from different angles of view. It needs more open space to be viewed, IMHO. | |||
| peteglider Citizen Username: Peteglider Post Number: 1352 Registered: 8-2002 |
I really think the placement on Sloan Street is a HUGE mistake. Sloan Street is one of the few/only "downtown" places where people walk, congregate, stop for coffee/ ice cream/ bite to eat. Weekend nights its really nice to see people sitting and lingering in that area. I can't imagine that a statue vs a fountain would add to the ambiance. How big is this Smith sculpture going to be? A *much* better spot (IMO) would be next to the Dunkin DOnuts -- where that absurd metal and concrete thing is sitting (also a sculpture possibly?). Otherwise -- in front of SOPAC = much better. Pete ($440k?!?!? OUCH!) | |||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 7080 Registered: 4-1997 |
The gazebo is hideous. The fountains are mindless. Rather than relocate them, let's pretend they never happened. Pop them up on eBay with no reserve. Floods Hill might work. Just don't put it at the where snowboarders might hit it. Ouch! | |||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 343 Registered: 4-2005 |
Pete - 25 X 20 Pdg - I agree with your location assessment. But - the claim from Village Hall is this is a "done deal" because there was a "contract" anddddddd the money was approved for this two years ago... | |||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 62 Registered: 5-2004 |
MRosner, is there a contract? Is it possible to obtain a copy, if so? Is there any way to stop this project from happening at this point? Dave, I tend to agree regarding the unattractive gazebo and fountain, but nobody asked me. Also, those tax dollars were already spent and the space is filled. What's done is done. As a heavily taxed citizen, I just can't fathom knocking down something less than 5 years old to put in something else that IMO is also not appealing to me and many others on MOL. AND that costs $440K and counting! (Is the $440 just the art construction, or does it include the "consultants" etc.?) Golly, I'd really enjoy having an original Degas sculpture in my living room. Guess what? I cannot afford it. And it would be irresponsible for me to buy it anyway! (I wonder if it is even legal for the township to use our tax dollars for art? Is that really the job of our local government?) | |||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 7082 Registered: 4-1997 |
Many people consider public subsidies of the arts appropriate for many reasons, but the best is because we're a democracy. If you want to go after unworthy government spending, start with farm subsidies or the Shuttle program or SDI. | |||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 63 Registered: 5-2004 |
That's federal Dave, not fair to compare. Every elected federal official has their pork. (And btw, a LOT of everyday things taken for granted today are b/c of space exploration, as I'm sure you know.) Call me crazy, but I'd hope to have more of a realistic, accountable and responsible expectation from our tiny local government. (I guess you live in Maplewood, right Dave? Ain't it easy to spend S.Orange tax dollars.) | |||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2139 Registered: 4-2002 |
Pdg: $440,000 was the total cost including everything. Grant money of $250,000 has already been set aside for the project. As someone else once said... it ain't over till it's over... As for the Gazebo, the village president suggested putting it in Grove Park. I asked that we look for suggestions and keep an open mind but personally, I would like to see the statue put somewhere else and to leave the gazebo right where it stands. (PDG: Dave lives in S. Orange). | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2656 Registered: 5-2001 |
PDG, Well said. However in South Orange, pork and Corruption are a way of life. Ever look at your tax bill? The Trustees love to say our obscene taxes are because of the "services", then they buy expensive art, vote to pay themselves a "stipend" and a pension, vote to increase bonding before they know what the money will be used for and they subsidize developers (PILOTs for Beifus and the Supermarket and $1.2 million directly for the quarry). Services? No. Corruption? Yes! | |||
| Josh Holtz Citizen Username: Jholtz Post Number: 59 Registered: 4-2004 |
Mark, I was under the impression that the MPHDA was raising money to build their own gazebo in Grove Park. | |||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2140 Registered: 4-2002 |
Josh: You are correct, but the village presidend did suggest moving the gazebo from sloan street to Grove Park. The one what the MPHDA is proposing is more substantial and is why I think we should be looking for other locations to move the gazebo to (assuming the statue will be replacing it). | |||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 64 Registered: 5-2004 |
Dave, didn't know you lived in S. Orange - my apologies (and as a fellow tax-payer, my sympathies as well!). I assumed, b/c MOL is your baby (right??) = "Maplewood online". I should know better than to Assume. MRosner - OH! So it'll cost us "only" $190K, less funds raised from "private sources"...and plus all those little over-budget items that always crop up. Please - just keep us informed if/when it is possible to possible to influence these decisions in a meaningful way! (Sounds like you might be hinting that it can be un-done after your last assumption to Josh! Dare we hope?) | |||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 346 Registered: 4-2005 |
Pdg - Board of Trustee meeting tonight!!! MHD - You can claim mismanagement and bad decisions if you wish to do so, but using the term "corrupt" is a little harsh... don't you think? | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2657 Registered: 5-2001 |
Sorry, Shenna, but pissing away taxpayer dollars (as in the examples above) is corruption in my book. | |||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 67 Registered: 5-2004 |
A few more questions about the sculpture. - Is what is contemplated for S.Orange the same exact size as the one pictured in Dave's post on July 22, 2005 - 3:22 pm in an archived post on this thread? - Have funds been set aside, or even contemplated, for ongoing maintenance of this thing? The one in Dave's picture looks sorta rusted and dirty (from birds?). Industrial eyesore-like. Last, will this item be on the agenda, or up for discussion at tonight's BOT meeting? | |||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2141 Registered: 4-2002 |
PDG: Maintenance is an issue that has been raised and we do not have a real handle on how much it costs to clean (as you point out - mostly from Birds). The item is not on the agenda tonight. Of course if anyone wants to talk about it during remonstratives, they can feel free. | |||
| bets Supporter Username: Bets Post Number: 2214 Registered: 6-2001  |
Is there an agenda for tonight's meeting? My inquiry in another thread has gone unanswered. | |||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2142 Registered: 4-2002 |
There is an agenda. I do not know why it has not been posted. I just don't remember seeing the statue on the agenda. (If I had a copy here at the office, I would post). | |||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 68 Registered: 5-2004 |
I just reread the original post by Sheena and it finally sunk in - the proposed sculpture is 20 feet by 25 feet! My, oh my! Let's see, my living room is 23 feet by 13 feet, but only 9 feet high. I guess I can visualize it if I stand my living room on end... Hmmm, sounds like it might just about be big enough to entice young dare-devils to try jumping from the train platform onto it. (Oh, the liability.) You're right Sheena, that truly would conflict with the historic look of the poor firehouse! (Which, thankfully, is once again FINALLY under renovation! At least the $3K per month rental expense for the trailers the firefighters have been staying in for years may stop in the foreseeable future! (MRosner, any details about a signed contract would be appreciated. I really would like to get a copy.) | |||
| Josh Holtz Citizen Username: Jholtz Post Number: 60 Registered: 4-2004 |
Can we create a petition with regard to the purchase and/or location of this sculpture, as tax payers of the Village of South Orange? | |||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 7085 Registered: 4-1997 |
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| Josh Holtz Citizen Username: Jholtz Post Number: 61 Registered: 4-2004 |
Sorry Dave ... unfortunate lapse of optimism ... I'll ask my doctor to adjust my medication. | |||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 783 Registered: 5-2003 |
Well Pdg has found a sculpture solution. We can use it as a skate park! Yes, a 20 by 25 foot piece of metal, 9 feet high will be perfect for the kids to practice their moves! Wonderful! I'm so glad that my tax dollars are going to purchase this wonderful skate park! Thank you, Trustees! Perhaps you'd like to advise me on my portfolio.... |
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