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Message |
    
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 1182
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 1:45 pm: | 
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What is the reasonable response time for a knee-jerk reaction without all the facts? |
Howard Levison
Citizen
Username: Levisonh
Post Number: 371
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 1:48 pm: |
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Yes... I tried to contact him but is out of office until 8/23 but left a message. I am also looking at the 911 call process and CENCOM who should have a log of all calls as well possible statistics on response times.
What is enlightening is the quoted national average of 8 minutes. |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 833
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 3:21 pm: |
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F.B.A. |
mary brenner
Citizen
Username: Marybrenner
Post Number: 54
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 4:27 pm: |
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HOWARD LEVISON Joe Acciavatti says the information is false. He says after checking into the response time he found they responded in less time then the national average which is 8 min. ARE YOU STILL STANDING BEHIND YOUR ORIGINAL COMMENT THAT IT TOOK 30 MIN? |
Old and Gray
Citizen
Username: Pastmyprime
Post Number: 187
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 4:41 pm: |
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Mary...you sound like one of those politcal ads...you only forgot to add VOTE FOR___________.
at the end of your statement. You don't like Howard we all get it...Move on. |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 838
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 5:00 pm: |
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It may have in fact taken 30 minutes between the time the 9-1-1 call was made and the time an ambulance arrived. That doesn't mean that there is no explanation. A police officer was there within 5 minutes- they are trained in first-aid and have portable defibrillators. The pool staff was present and they are trained as well.
There is no indication that this child needed more advanced treatment than she was getting or that the designated ambulance corps was not otherwise engaged.
Is it uncomfortable and nerve-wracking to wait for an ambulance? Yes, minutes seem like hours. That doesn't mean that this kid didn't receive competent care and adequate treament. People in N.Y.C wait as long as an hour with heart symptoms.
Again, these are important issues worth discussing, but it helps nobody to rush to judgment.
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mary brenner
Citizen
Username: Marybrenner
Post Number: 55
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 6:43 pm: |
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Old anf Gray you just do not get it. I thought MOL was to discuss topics with your fellow residents. Howard made a very serious statement in my opinion. He said we have a problem in town as it relates to the response time not me!
he is the one that seems to be still on the campaign trail. How dare he or anyone make such statements about such a critical topic unless they are 100% accurate. We are not talking about how much time it takes dominos to deliver the pizza we are not talking about how long it takes to get a project done in town we are talking about people at risk! I for one feel that if in fact Joe Acciavatti is correct in his statement that the response time was less than the national average of 8 minutes Dave should not allow Mr. Levison to post on MOL again. My son uses the pool every day and I do not need to be worrying about this if it is not true.
And to add insult to injury Mr. Levisons remark that he found it enlightening that the national average was 8 min. He never remarked about mr Acciavatti saying the response that day was better than that! And not the 30 min he claims it took. |
Old and Gray
Citizen
Username: Pastmyprime
Post Number: 189
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 9:03 pm: |
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I have to agree with Howard a bit...we called an ambulance and the police officer and I stood around sort of uncomfortable for sometime...the whole time he was apologizing to me for not being able to do more...I think there is something going on here it might not be as dramatic as Howard stated, but I don't think the Ambulance's company is going to admit any wrong doing either...come on they are in a high liability field with malpractice lawyers waiting to sue them.
Maybe the town needs to come up with a better plan, because this isn't the first time I have heard of this issue on this message board or around the Village. |
red_alert
Citizen
Username: Red_alert
Post Number: 161
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 8:11 am: |
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Brett, do you know for a fact that the Pool staff are trained - I assume you meant EMT's?
Is it a fact that the Police have portable defibrillators?
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Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 839
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 9:06 am: |
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Lifeguards usually have CPR training, and S.O.P.D. definitely has defibrillators- my neighbor was successfully saved by them. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2175
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 10:33 am: |
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Old and Gray: This was the first time I heard there was a problem with the response time (assuming there was and we still do not know). You suggest that the town needs to come up with a better plan, but that assumes there is a problem. I certainly think we need to make sure that the response times are as good as can be reasonably expected.
It is unfortunate that volunteer rescue squads everywhere are unable to attract enough volunteers that we now have to seek other solutions. However, that is a fact of life in the suburbs and we need to deal with them, not create a panic situation.
Instead of Howard starting a "sky is falling" scenario, he could have gotten the facts before posting his casual observation.
In the end, clearly money will be an issue and one likes to think we can't put a cost of our health (Certainly not life threatening situations) but obviously that could be an issue in finding those other solutions (if they are in fact needed).
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Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 7142
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 10:41 am: |
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The response time to the pedestrian lying in the crosswalk on Sloan St. last night seemed a bit slow, too. The area was filled with police, though. I'd say the police were on the scene about 15 minutes before EMS. However, not knowing when it was called in, it's difficult to judge actual response time. |
Old and Gray
Citizen
Username: Pastmyprime
Post Number: 192
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 12:10 pm: |
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MROSNER,
Im not saying the system is completely broken...but there seems to be flaws when people cannot get an ambulance quickly, and the police are telling you it should be anytime now anytime now...I understand the dilemma of a volunteer squad, I would volunteer but I think I would just slow them down more. Something or things are delaying responses, and I have heard several people talking about it around town, not just on MOL, I cannot say that my experience was entirely too slow, but it was an eye opener to realize I could have just gotten up and over the reservation to Barnabas a lot quicker myself. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2179
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 12:52 pm: |
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O & G: Again, it is fine to say we should evealuate the service we are getting and see if they meet our requirements. I think the point that some made is that H Levison's first post was not an appropiate way to start the dialogue.
By the way, I did not remember seeing this on MOL before although maybe it was in a different area since I usually only look at S. Orange Specific.
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mary brenner
Citizen
Username: Marybrenner
Post Number: 56
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 12:59 pm: |
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After all this it is quite obvious to me why Howard levison lost the election. |
Pizzaz
Supporter
Username: Pizzaz
Post Number: 2274
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 1:02 pm: |
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At least he has balls and doesn't hide behind a woman's name...  |
mary brenner
Citizen
Username: Marybrenner
Post Number: 57
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 1:08 pm: |
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Excuse me Mr. Pizzaz how dare you make such a crude statement. I am a woman. I am a resident of South Orange and you are an absolute discrace to this board. Dave should remove you for good! |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 9192
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 1:09 pm: |
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The question here is, when is an ambulance dispatched? When someone calls in a medical emergency to 911 is an ambulance dispatched immediately or is this held up until the police respond and evaluate the situation?
Howard posted his observations and I don't know how he can be lambasted for doing that. Does everyone who posts here do a research paper before posting? Didn't think so. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 2180
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 1:44 pm: |
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Bobk: this is how Howie started this thread:
"When will we recognize that daytime volunteer or subcontracted ambulance service does not meet our expectations? "
That did not read like an observation to me, it read like someone who wanted to stir the pot....
It was like he determined the outcome without facts or dialogue. One story without facts did nothing to back up his initial statement.
How about starting the thread like this:
I am concerned about emergency response time. Has anyone had any experiences to relate. It might not be a problem but there was one incident to which I have very little information but figured it would be good to have a dialogue about emergency responses and 911 calls.
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cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 1188
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 1:46 pm: |
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Look, someone posted saying a girl was laying for 30 mins and no one would help her. I said this sounded a bit, I don't know, peculiar, and maybe there was more to the story. No, Howard, said, I'm telling you, a cop came but didn't do anything, and it took THIRTY MINUTES for an ambulance to come. Again, I said, maybe there's more to the story. No, people kept jumping in, saying it doesn't matter, there's no more to tell, bottom line the ambulance should have been there faster, we don't need to know any more to the story, case closed.
There's always more to the story. I didn't believe, and still don't believe, that someone called 911, said "a little girl isn't breathing and is bleeding," hung up the phone, and -- with no further interaction -- 30 minutes went by before an ambulance arrived at the South Orange pool. All I suggested was that we try to find out what else was going on before we start talking about training other people and overhauling the emergency responders, which is what Howard was talking about in his VERY VERY FIRST POST.
Someone else has since posted suggesting teh ambulance in fact responded in less than 8 minutes. Which takes me back to my very first post, which was simply saying.... maybe we need more information.
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Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 841
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 1:52 pm: |
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Point, Set and Match Cmonty- we don't know the facts and we shouldn't believe the worst based upon suppositions. |
Howard Levison
Citizen
Username: Levisonh
Post Number: 372
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 3:03 pm: |
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The reason I post is to create an open dialogue on issues that seems to be lacking in our government. Yes, it is one of the many campaign issues but it still exists.
Mary, as I stated I observed a one half hour response and asked the question if this is something that the community is aware of and is this the level of service they expect.
Are you in anyway curious on how "such a critical topic" is handled by our government - I do. The "enlightenment" is that we now have a statement of expectation for this "critical" service. Mary, we are interested in your opinion on this, and would welcome your feedback..
In a discussion with Joe Acciavatti the Regional Director for MONOC (Contracted Ambulance Service) he stated that what he recalled that on this incident (he is currently on vacation and did not have access to the details) the response to the call took six (6) minutes – that is from the time the call came into MONOC’s call center to the time of arrival of the ambulance on the scene.
From my personal observation the incident occurred at 3:30 pm and the ambulance arrived at 4:00 pm. What one can postulate is that there was some 20-25 minutes of delay in dispatching an ambulance. Further detail to the dispatch process and what occurred specifically to this incident needs additional detail.
With respect to response time to a call I feel it is reasonable. I also confirmed that the EMT/ambulance is stationed at the Newstead firehouse.
I asked Joe Acciavatti that when he returned from vacation if he would provide historical response time statistics which he has agreed he would provide.
BTW Mark, we had a telephone conversation about this topic so I do not understand why you are saying it is the first time you heard about the problem. As Chair of the Public Safety committee maybe you could provide what are the expectations and describe the 911 process from a call to dispatch (triage?) to tracking the incident. Also, what management practices is in place that track actual performance against objectives.
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Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 843
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 3:41 pm: |
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"Are you in any way curious on how 'such a critical topic' is handled by our government- I do(sic)."
Howard, if you were truly curious why didn't start there instead of posting here within 30 minutes of the event? |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 7154
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 3:49 pm: |
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Because the sooner the alleged problem is solved the less chance someone would suffer long-term consequences from, say, a stroke? 30 minutes seems too long. Heck, last night it seemed painfully long for the 2 block trip to Sloan St. (yes, I was there). Sounds like there's a communication problem with dispatch and it needs fixin. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 9195
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 3:49 pm: |
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I doubt that Howard would have much success going down to the police station and asking to review the 911 logs on the day in question. As I said earlier a lot depends on when the 911 center notified MONOC to roll the ambulance.
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cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 1189
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 3:52 pm: |
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So, again, just so I'm clear:
A girl got hurt at the pool, someone picked up a phone and dialed 911. From the moment they hung up until the time the ambulance came was 30 minutes, that's right?
Is that the version of the events from the ambulance company, or from Howard, or what?
And, again: The girl received no medical care whatsoever in the interim? No lifeguards, nothing from police, nothing from parents, nothing from Howard himself.... |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 7156
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 4:21 pm: |
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Regarding the timeframe, I think that's Howard's POV.
Ambuance POV is: "In reviewing the response time I found that the EMS response was below the national average of 8 minutes. We calculate our response time from the first phone ring in the MONOC dispatch center to the time the ambulance signs on location."
Possible explanations:
1) Police were dispatched initially and then the police called for ambulance.
2) At the moment of the accident, Howard was abducted by aliens for 25 minutes and given a drug to cleanse his memory of the experience and put back in place using their time travel machine a few minutes later, but it seemed longer to him.
3) Some people have faulty time pieces.
4) MONOC dispatch center is in a different time zone |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 2689
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 4:24 pm: |
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I have not really been following this thread, but I see the News Wretched has the story online:
http://localsource.com/articles/2005/08/18/news_-_record/news/local/doc4304d147a f6ed709006075.txt |
Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 844
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 4:26 pm: |
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Facts Before Acts. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 2139
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 11:24 pm: |
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Once again everyone, we need to remember things are not always as they appear!!! If you look toward the beginning of this thread you will find my post about when my nephew's broke his nose at the pool a couple of years ago.
After jumping off the high dive, my nephew somehow succeeded in breaking his nose, knocking himself out in the process. He was pulled from the pool, covered in blood, by the life guards. To anyone watching from the other end of the pool, it might have seem once the guards pulled him from the pool they stood around for twenty minutes doing nothing. It might also seem it took the squad a long time to get to the pool. But that wasn't the case.
Despite the pool staff wanting to call the squad, it was my decision to refuse medical treatment on my nephew's behalf. He was 16 at the time and he wanted no part of being brought to the hospital by the first aid squad. I had no problem with the staff holding back from doing anything once he was pulled from the pool because they did not have gloves; and I knew enough about first aid to know he needed to keep his head down by his knees. A lifeguard with gloves was there within a minute.
Not for nothing, but from what I was told about the incident last week, the girl's father was there when this happened. He did not feel it was necessary to call the squad; but a trained EMT at the pool convinced him the squad needed to be called.
Another bit of information, the girl was not actually a guest. From what I was told she was a resident who happened not to have her badge yet; so she came in on a guest pass. I know there is the very real chance this can be true because I did this myself at the beginning of the summer.
The first week the pool opened a friend asked if I'd take her child to the pool. I didn't feel like taking the time to go to the community center to get my picture taken for a new pool badge. Instead I used one of my friend's guest passes.
I hope once the father sees the story in the Snooze Wrecked he calls them to set the record straight.
If it turns out what I was told is incorrect information I will apologize. I will also out the person who fed me this information as I don't appreciate being lied to. |
Dust Buster
Citizen
Username: Coyote
Post Number: 38
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 9:45 am: |
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Bottom Line: If someone falls from the high dive ladder and is bleeding from the head area an ambulance should be called immediately. And, it should come immediately. There could be scull damage; neck injury; etc. that the lifeguards could not see. Even if the father does not want the ambulance, it should be called. If not for the sake of the girl, for the sake of not having future lawsuits against the town for not acting reasonably in a reasonable amount of time.
Also, a guest is a guest whether or not they are a resident and did not have their badge yet. She should not have been diving in the first place. |
Dust Buster
Citizen
Username: Coyote
Post Number: 39
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 9:47 am: |
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Bottom Line: If someone falls from the high dive ladder and is bleeding from the head area an ambulance should be called immediately. And, it should come immediately. There could be scull damage; neck injury; etc. that the lifeguards could not see. Even if the father does not want the ambulance, it should be called. If not for the sake of the girl, for the sake of not having future lawsuits against the town for not acting reasonably in a reasonable amount of time.
Also, a guest is a guest whether or not they are a resident and did not have their badge yet. She should not have been diving in the first place. |
Crazy_quilter
Citizen
Username: Crazy_quilter
Post Number: 31
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 9:02 pm: |
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i was at the pool that day. From the time we had to get out of the water until the ambulance came was at least 1/2 hour. The stepmother Ii'm pretty sure) was there because she was immediately telling her young sons, "so & so is hurt and an ambulance is coming. I'm calling daddy." (she is young looking so was maybe mistaken for an au pair).
when the ambulance did arrive, they were almost comical in their ambling up the hill. Equipment fell off the stretcher twice and i wondered why they didn't have a better way of carrying things. Maybe they arrived 8 minutes after they received a call, and maybe they knew it wasn't an emergency, but from what the stepmother was saying, she expected them from the very beginning of the incident. I'm glad the girl is okay (I guess she is because she was released same day).
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Brett Weir
Citizen
Username: Brett_weir
Post Number: 847
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 11:45 am: |
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After many days and posts, it seems likely that the timespan it took between calling the police and the arrival of the ambulance took @ 30 minutes. I still feel that this response was A) not typical, and; B) not inordinate given the risk factors to the injured child. At no time was she abandoned or uncared for. She was surrounded by trained personnel and had a parent present, and the lengthy response of an ambulance, while annoying, was not health-threatening. I stated at the beginning that this was an issue worth discussing and it is.
I disagree, however, with Howard's decision to post it immediately without any facts and without first seeking an authoratative answer for the delay. And I am sure that if he had successfully gained a seat on the BOT he would not enjoy seeing others do so before offering him the chance to investigate and explain.
Why did it take 30 minutes? Why don't the trained firemen perform this function? What happens when two or more medical emergencies occur simultaneously? All good questions- someone with answers may wish to share them. But I stll believe that our ambulance coverage, particularly during off-hours when the S.O. Rescue Squad handles it, is better than average. In over fifty years, my family has had many occasions to call for medical assistance and we have never been disappointed. Two sub-standard incidents do not obscure an overall record of fine service. |
SO Refugee
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 810
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 12:33 pm: |
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8 minutes |
Dan Cohen
Citizen
Username: Fitzhume
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 8:51 pm: |
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I was a member of the South Orange rescue Squad for over 10 years, and have responded to thousands of calls in South Orange. I currently live in New York and I'm on auxiliary status, (not actively working on the squad) but in reading all of these posts, I feel, a few things seem to be getting mixed up:
1) The South Orange (volunteer) Rescue Squad currently is on call weekday nights and 24 hours a day on weekends... so this incident has nothing to do with the Rescue Squad or volunteers.
2) Week day emergencies are covered by MONOC. Although that stands for Monmouth-Ocean County... don't think that's where they have to respond from. They respond from within South Orange.
3) From all accounts, this seems like an isolated incident that was due to some sort of dispatching problem.
From reading the posts on here, one would think that it takes a half an hour to get an ambulance in South Orange. Wee that to be the case, there would obviously be a major problem, and I think nobody would argue with that. But that is not the case. It seems that this particular time, for a reason that nobody seems to know for sure yet (but authorities say is being investigated), there was a major lag from 911 call to ambulance dispatch. Before everyone gets worried and starts going around saying that it takes 30 minutes to get an ambulance in South Orange, lets take this as the isolated incident it is and investigate why it happened without throwing MONOC (and the volunteers for that matter... who weren't even involved) down the stairs.
4) MONOC says the call was responded to within 8 minutes for their getting it, and it seems like the call was via a cell phone routed through the state police, which can certainly explain why there might have been a major delay in the 911 call getting routed to the right place.
5) Due to concerns about response times, the South Orange Rescue Squad switched over to a sleep-in squad. This means requiring all on-call members to be either in the ambulance or the building during their shift. Obviously response-times are something that is being looked at and improved upon, and I would hate to have one incident (where the child is apparently fine, thank god), taint an entire system and group of people who are dedicated to saving and protecting South Orange residents.
Lets find out what happened here without giving the impression that it takes a half hour to get an ambulance in South Orange-- because it doesn't. |
Vertifly
Citizen
Username: Vertifly
Post Number: 70
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 10:11 pm: |
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Knew a Dan Cohen... Have you ever worked in the exchange place area of Jersey City? |
Dan Cohen
Citizen
Username: Fitzhume
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 12:04 am: |
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Nope. But there are a lot of us out there. |
pan
Citizen
Username: Pan
Post Number: 105
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 9:06 pm: |
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Excellent post Dan Cohen. Thank you. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 9208
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 9:07 am: |
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The News Record article indicated that the SO Chief of Police was investigating the incident. Has he completed the investigation? The article also mentions that when you dial 911 on a cell phone the call is routed to the State Police who transfer it to the local juristiction. This is another possible area for a delay, or a misunderstanding (ever play "telephone" when you were a kid?).
A few years ago a when I was working a soccer tournament the SO police told us it was quicker to call the regular police number than 911 when using a cell phone. Things may have improved, or maybe not. I don't really know. |
Daniel Koenemund
Citizen
Username: 0614911
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 9:12 pm: |
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As Captain of the South Orange Rescue Squad I have been watching this thread and feel that although the call being discussed is serious I ask people to understand that this is an abnormal situation.
As Emergency Personel we have to assume that every call is serious because lets face facts one person may interperate emergencies differently. For instance I have dispatched on chest pains and arrived to find a case of indegestion. We have to assume the worst in every dispatch.
Also since August first my crews have to remain in the Rescue Squad building or with their crew for their entire shift. We took this step to shorten our response times to emergencies.
I hope to shortly start a thread specificly for the Rescue Squad to answere questions from the public.
I beg the public not to lose faith in the Emergency system or the South Orange Rescue Squad |
longfellow
Citizen
Username: Longfellow
Post Number: 41
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 10:14 pm: |
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It seems to be quieting down, this [at times] vituperative thread.
There was enough corroboration to suggest that it DID INDEED take 30 min for the ambulance to arrive.
Now whether or not that was "unusual" -- whether or not it meant the call was routed in such a way that MONOC notification was 22-23 minutes late -- the plain fact remains that it TOOK TOO LONG.
To attack Howard Levison for raising the red flag on this potential issue, or to accuse him of being uninformed (even after others agreed with his basic information) -- is blatantly unfair. And it misses the point by a wide margin.
Maybe there isn't a problem. And maybe there is. Maybe next time the "delay" -- for whatever reason -- will have more serious consequences. Or maybe there won't be a delay...
But at core values, we should now be alert to the fact that there MAY be a problem, and vigilance will determine if that is so or not.
Howard Levison, if you follow his posts and his recent campaign, is the best kind of public citizen: concerned, passionate, aware, and capable of follow-through rather than ranting and random attacks. This is not his only concern (or even his primary one).
I think we need to stick to the issue, and the determination as to whether or not it is serious, and lay off the killing of the messenger.
(And if you REALLY want to get Mr. Levison going, ask him about the financials underlying SOPAC...) |
Howard Levison
Citizen
Username: Levisonh
Post Number: 375
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 7:47 am: |
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Longfellow, thank you for your support and understanding. I have asked that the question of describing the process of handling an emergency call be a topic for the next Public Safety Meeting and what measures are in place to validate that we meet these objectives (such as average response time reporting and review).
I have also raised the question based on an OPRA request why the Township does not currently have a contract for daytime service as indicated in previous posts (currently only a draft for EMTAC and nothing for MONOC) or if one is needed. |
red_alert
Citizen
Username: Red_alert
Post Number: 164
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 2:37 pm: |
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As Daniel said: "We have to assume the worst in every dispatch."
I posted that in the early in the thread and got a firm disagreement.
Every call should be regarded as worst case until the medical professionals can determine otherwise.
I think this is why Howard initiated this thread. |
Daniel Koenemund
Citizen
Username: 0614911
Post Number: 3
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 4:39 pm: |
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Howard: MONOC bought EMTAC and accepted the responsibility for the daytime coverage of the township.
Red Alert, I agree with you to a point. We do assume the worst however most people still live under the assumption that if you arrive at the hospital in an ambulance you will get treated faster. This could not be further from the truth. You would have a hard time beliving some of the things we get called for. I think a police officer should have the ability, like the old days, to cancel the Ambulance if it is not needed. Situations like this tie up a rig for what basicly amounts to a free ride. This delay could possibly cause us a long response to a real emergency.
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Howard Levison
Citizen
Username: Levisonh
Post Number: 377
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 9:21 am: |
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Daniel, I understand that MONOC bought EMTAC but my point was that you had indicated ("My comments are in no way reflective of the SORS or the daytime contracted ambulance service MONOC (formally covered by EMTAC)" that there was a contract - that implies certain definitions of responsibility such as response time, liability, crew qualifications etc. But there is NO contract.
What are the implications of "accepted the responsibility" - from whom, what are the parameters...? |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 1207
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 9:27 am: |
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So again: The girl was laying on the ground, and no one was helping her for 30 minutes? No lifeguards, no parents, no police officer, no one at the pool... Howard, where were you? Did you offer her a band aid? Cool drink? Sleeve of your shirt?
Any update on the condition of the girl, or exactly what happened to her? She wasn't breathing, or she was? She was bloody? Does that mean she was bleeding, or had a scrape, or a bloody nose, or what? Did this girl have a medical emergency?
I know we're bout 130 posts into this, and the facts don't matter, but color me curious.
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jeep
Citizen
Username: Jeep
Post Number: 8
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 11:14 am: |
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I thought it was posted somehwhere (maybe in the paper) that the girl was fine and back at the pool before the end of the day.
I don't feel any more or less safe based on what has been posted in this thread. It seems like next time there is an emergency, try not to use a cell phone and if you do, call the local police station, not 911. And if it is my kid on the ground, I would hope people would be helping and not just standing aroung talking or rushing home to gossip on MOL. |
Howard Levison
Citizen
Username: Levisonh
Post Number: 378
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 12:31 pm: |
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cmontyburns, spin as you will but I said in my first post:
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"I was at the pool today and at 3:30 pm a young girl fell backwards off the diving board ladder onto the concrete. She had lost her breath and was bleeding slightly. The response by the pool staff seemed that we do not have trained EMT's at the pool.
The police responded within the first five minutes but just stood by waiting for the EMT's.
At 4:00pm an ambulance arrived - one half hour to response!"
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Now, how do you come to the statement:
"No lifeguards, no parents, no police officer, no one at the pool... Howard, where were you? Did you offer her a band aid? Cool drink? Sleeve of your shirt?"
I am not qualified to provide aid but my expectation is that there should be personnel who should - Pool attendants & police and without interference.
Also, if you have called the Police to find out how she is you get "no comment this case is under investigation".
So let's get to the real question - How does this town provide medical emergency services?
Can either of you provide some insight on what are your expectations.
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jeep
Citizen
Username: Jeep
Post Number: 11
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 1:58 pm: |
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Mr. Levison wrote in his first post
"The police responded within the first five minutes but just stood by waiting for the EMT's.
"
It sounds like your problem is with the police, not the response time. The police did not do anything other than stand around. Perhaps, the Police did not see it as an emergency. Do you think if the situation was serious they would have done more or are you saying the police in S. Orange are useless? |
Old and Gray
Citizen
Username: Pastmyprime
Post Number: 199
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 3:33 pm: |
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Jeep,
I think its already been addressed that the police responded quickly and could not do much more then stand around and wait for the EMS.
Our police are not EMT's and it has been stated regularly that unless the girl needed CPR or was bleeding profusely, there is very little a cop can do but wait for the ambulance to arrive. |
Michael S. Koenemund
Citizen
Username: Kb1ckf_981
Post Number: 52
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 4:37 pm: |
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Howard,
I believe that you have mixed up posts, I wrote " My comments are in no way reflective of the SORS or the daytime contracted ambulance service MONOC (formally covered by EMTAC)" not my Brother Dan. And yes there is a contact involved with the daytime EMS coverage of the village.
I am a past Captain (2002, 2003) of the Rescue Squad and made an initial comment before all the facts were recieved for everyones review, I was not defending nor accusing anyone of anything.
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Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 9237
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 5:59 pm: |
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The News Record has a story about the Village investigation. John Gross is quoted as saying that the delay was a result of a "glitch" in the dispatch system and the "glitch" has been corrected and will not happen again.
He did not elaborate on exactly what the "glitch" was.
It looks like, strangely, most of the posts here were correct; there was a delay, Monoc probably responded promptly once they were notified, etc. The only discrepancy reported here was blood in the victims ears, which appears not to have been confirmed by the medical reports.
I would also add that if this subject hadn't been discussed on MOL I doubt that the News Record would have picked up the story and that an investigation would have taken place.
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KG525
Citizen
Username: Kg525
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 8:58 pm: |
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I was impressed with both Dan Cohen's and Daniel Koenemund's posts on this thread. It seems to me that while the South Orange Volunteer Rescue Squad was not involved in the incident, they are taking steps to improve their response time anyway.
With so many concerned citizens online here, the Rescue Squad should not be in need of members.
I HAVE SUBMITTED MY APPLICATION TO THEM. I BELIEVE THAT GIVING A BIT OF MY PRECIOUS NIGHT OR WEEKEND TIME IS WELL WORTH HELPING TO MAKE SURE MY FAMILY AND FRIENDS ARE AIDED IN THEIR MEDICAL EMERGENCY. I URGE ANY AND ALL OF MY FELLOW CITIZENS TO SHOW THEIR ALTRUISTIC SIDE, AND OFFER THEIR TIME AS I INTEND TO.
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Howard Levison
Citizen
Username: Levisonh
Post Number: 379
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 10:29 pm: |
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Michael, thanks for the clarification on names.
My information was obtained through submission of an OPRA request for a copy of the contract. The response was there are no contracts with either MONOC or EMTAC.
I was given a copy of a draft contract for EMTAC dated a few years ago but never executed. I would be interested in any details you may have about the contract. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 2197
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 10:48 pm: |
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Howard-
I owe you an apology. It seems like some of the information I was given by the other person was not correct. You were right, it did take 30 minutes for a squad to arrive. It seems as if the information I was given by the other person. (regarding the father not wanting the squad called so it only seemed like it took a half hour between the time the squad was called and it got there because the squad wasn't called right away).
Anyway, I'm sorry Howard.   |
Howard Levison
Citizen
Username: Levisonh
Post Number: 382
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 4:03 pm: |
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Thanks..... |
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