| Author | Message | ||
     Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 83 Registered: 5-2004 |
Lizziecat, sorry, but it's my living room that is 9 feet high. I'm afraid the sculpture is either 20 feet high or 25 feet high (and then 25 feet wide or 20 feet wide). Unless I'm mistaken, it is quite monstrous. Check out Dave's picture of the same sculpture in NYC in the archived posts in this thread.) | ||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 784 Registered: 5-2003 |
The bigger the better, Pdg. At 25 feet high we could use it as a ski jump in winter and a parachute jump in summer! Maybe we could stick a big plastic orange (or was it a pumpkin?) on top so every one will know that South Orange is a patron of really BIG art! | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 90 Registered: 5-2004 |
I wish Dave would rename this thread something like "Township buying HUGE $440K Sculpture" | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2664 Registered: 5-2001  |
Actually it should be "TAXPAYERS buying HUGE $440K Sculpture" | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 91 Registered: 5-2004 |
Yes MHD, technically that is correct, but it sort of implies that we've been asked and have agreed. At least renaming the thread to disclose precisely what is being discussed here might attract even more SO taxpayers who are at present happy-ish in their ignorance of this situation. Bet the Trustees won't have the courage to publish this pending project in the New-Wretched or the GasLight, complete with picture, actual dimensions, contemplated location and a break-down of the COSTS involved, including the cost to erect/install the gazebo and fountain and then to tear it down a "prepare' the site for this thing called Tao. (Consider that a challenge MRosner and company!!!) | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2665 Registered: 5-2001 |
PDG, Actually, I can almost guarantee they WILL publish the project and how great it is that a sculpture is being "donated". What they WON'T publish is that simply the "rights" to create a replica are being donated and that the construction, installation and maintenace costs are being stuck to the taxpayers at a cost of $250,000. | ||
| gotcha Citizen Username: Gotcha Post Number: 65 Registered: 5-2005 |
What a waste! Of time, of money, of space. Not to mention the destruction of a space that was recently created. Just Say No!!! | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 92 Registered: 5-2004 |
MHD, to be fair, from what I understand from MRosner's previous replies in this thread, the project (not counting the previous installation costs of the fountain and gazebo, or ongoing maintenance of Big Tao) is projected to be a total of 440K, of which $250K is "grant" money. I think Sheena has said that $30K has been raised from private donors, so technically, the taxpayers are stuck with something like $160K plus maintenance, plus the previous cost of fountain/gazebo. Right MRosner? Shouldn't the taxpayers be ASKED if they want to foot that $160K+ expense to receive a "gift"? Is that the best use of taxpayer funds? (After all, don't we pay John Gross to wear many hats in the name of "saving" money?) I say get the entire thing funded by donations and grants and put it in a large open space and THEN I can choose to simply look away without becoming angry and all the lovers of this type of art can sigh with joy... | ||
| Parkingsux Citizen Username: Parkingsux Post Number: 78 Registered: 6-2005 |
Ole fashion activism begins with gathering a number of people to attend a protest rally and inviting the Newark/NY based press/TV to cover. The eye of public scrutiny needs to pierce their armor of we know best, without it we will witness them step into another pile of •••• at taxpayers expense. | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2150 Registered: 4-2002 |
Pdg: You have it right. When the statue was presented to the BOT, there were several persons in the audience who spoke in favor of the statue. Originally, we were told that the total cost to the village (after grants and private fund raising ) would be less than $50,000. In my opinion, we are going to be looking at closer to $150,000. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2666 Registered: 5-2001 |
Since when does "several persons" drive consensus in this town? There were more than "several persons" who spoke out against development of the Quarry. There were more than "several persons" who spoke in favor of a DRMC. There were more than "several persons" who spoke against changing the Village Charter to pay the Trustees. However "several persons" want the Village to buy "art" with taxpayer moeny, so it is done??? Gimme a break. | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2153 Registered: 4-2002 |
MHD: The point was that not one person objected to the statue at the time of the presentation (I don't think anyone has objected at any meeting and I still get emails supporting the statue but on MOL the majority appear to be against). As for the DMC, that was and is still favored by the BOT, but the questions has always remained - how should it be funded (and we are talking about at least $300,000 a year). There has been no agreement either among the trustees or among the DMC members. There were many who spoke in favor of a stipend too but the question was should the public be allowed to vote on the new charter recomendation (as presented by the charter review committee)that included in the changes paying the trustees a stipend (which I ultimately voted against). | ||
| Pizzaz Supporter Username: Pizzaz Post Number: 2218 Registered: 11-2001  |
Speaking about voting, will the issue of paying the trustees be up for vote this November? Has the state assembly approved the motion on the stipulation it be approved by the voters? Status, please. | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2156 Registered: 4-2002 |
No, we have not heard back from the assembly. I figure it will be next year. | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 94 Registered: 5-2004 |
MRosner - I am unable to attend the BOT meetings (babysitters are $10-$15 and hour and we budget what we can for our every-other week "date night") I also have satellite - a choice made 7 years ago after a year of horrible cable reception - now we're invested and financially it doesn't make sense to change back to cable. So, can't yet view the meetings, but I'm looking forward to seeing them on the village website. Even then, I will not be able to voice an opinion from home, unless we also will be allowing resident's to phone in. But I digress. Frankly, if the agenda's were posted for ALL meetings in a timely manner, we could check them for issues that matter to us, and even hire the occassional babysitter to attend and be heard! Of course, our trustees could choose to try to make sure that residents are aware of expensive proposed projects} by publishing notice of the issue in advance in the N-R and/or the Gaslight (for those of us who finally cancelled their NR subscription in disgust!) Do I have to send you an email to formally request that you suggest to the trustees that the public should be made aware of this project, including the tear-down proposal of the gazebo and fountain that we just paid for, and all the funding aspects??? I'm serious, please let me know what I need to do - send me an email if you don't want others to see your reply. And Thanks!!! as always, for representing the trustees on MOL - it's a shame you're the only one. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1149 Registered: 12-2003  |
Isn't anyone free to send letters to the trustees on their own at any time? Why do you need to send an email to Mr. Rosner asking him to suggest something to someone else on your behalf? You can write letters to the trustees and mail them from home. | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2157 Registered: 4-2002 |
Pdg: I have satellite too - because cablevision did not have Yes for a year. Meetings will be available this fall on the internet. We have to work on the agenda and getting a more comprehensive one posted. | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 97 Registered: 5-2004 |
MRosner, just sent you a private message. | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 352 Registered: 4-2005  |
Dave, since I created the thread, feel free to change the name of this thread to "Taxpayers Pick Up the Cost for Expensive Statue!!!!" (I can't post the amount since I'm not sure of it...). Okay... several people spoke in favor of the statue... would that be the people who were on the art committee who recommended the statue and the location, etc? Agenda items are very vague - if it said "Village locating to spend LOTS OF TAXPAYERS DOLLARS on BIG STEELE THING" - I'm sure there would be "several people" who would speak against it... If you guys want - I'll get a petition started --- I'm sure it will do no good at all but I'd love for more people to hear about this and atleast care. Citizen Activists make me happy! Oh unless I'm wrong... the cost of the statue up to date is a lot more than $150k to residents unless the Village has gotten lots of grants for it and it hasn't been on the agenda or they haven't announced it publicly... And the location on Sloan Street needs to be moved! Not next to our historic firehouse!!!! Okay, that's all  | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 98 Registered: 5-2004 |
Sheena - look what you've started!  Yes, please get a petition going - it can't hurt and even if it won't help, you're right -- getting the taxpayers to sign it would at least result in more taxpayers being informed. I've been told this is a "snowball" with a "very large" number of local artists pushing to get it done. But who knows about snowballs in August... | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 840 Registered: 10-2004 |
Sheena, up to now you have only complained about the location of the statue. I am happy to see that your real feelings are revealed. I live in Maplewood so as we already discussed my opinion doesn't matter on this subject. But I like the sculpture and how it makes people who care nothing of visual art suddenly so passionate about art. That to me is very powerful artwork and shows the power of minimal art. If you read up about Minimalism, you will see that this argument has played out hundreds of times all over the country and world. I am so happy to get to witness it first hand here on MOL. Thanks Dave. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 7103 Registered: 4-1997  |
No one makes a peep when money was spent on the awful gazebo and fountain (at least none I heard). Now we have a chance to have a world-class sculpture CREATED BY SOMEONE FROM SOUTH ORANGE and people are "citizen activists" and there are petitions to go around. Many, many towns across the nation invest in public art. It has a cost, but don't pretend it doesn't have value. | ||
| Parkingsux Citizen Username: Parkingsux Post Number: 79 Registered: 6-2005 |
It has value, but really after an investment of $16 million for SOPAC; $3 million for an initial Parking Investment; $1.2 million for the Quarry; $1.5 million for Shop Rite contamination, 600k for Midas; ZERO for the exterior of Village Hall which looks like it's falling apart; ZERO for the old stone house which needs a good kick for it to fall down ..... the care free and inappropriate spending is the concern of the "activist", and not whether the minimalist who resided in South Orange should be honored! | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 101 Registered: 5-2004 |
So, Dave, I guess that means you won't be changing the name of this thread as per Sheena's request? Of course, you're 100% right about the cost of the gazebo/fountain - we weren't asked. Does that mean that method should continue? And again, what about the WASTING of those already spent tax dollars by tearing the fountain/gazebo down to put up another unasked for expensive HUGE thing? AlleyG - this has me passionate about taxpayer money being spent without fully informing the taxpayers. If the majority of taxpayers want it, and want it next to the firehouse, so be it. But they are not being informed or asked. And apparently Bill C. is in agreement with the group of artists who are "actively fighting to make this happen". This seems to be being quietly forced down the taxpayers' throats, which is what I object to the most. | ||
| The Oracle of MOL Supporter Username: Oracle_of_mol Post Number: 46 Registered: 2-2005  |
"A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing." --Oscar Wilde also: "Life is short; art is long." --Hippocrates, Seneca, Chaucer, Goethe, Longfellow, Browning, etc. Go in peace. --The Oracle of MOL | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2667 Registered: 5-2001 |
Dave, First, this will not be "created by Someone from South Orange". This will be a fabrication created by some 3rd party. Second, there are plenty of famous people from South Orange. Personally, I'd rather see a set of Max Weinberg's drumsticks on display. Maybe I should go to Village Hall with "Nohero", "ML1" and some of the other Springsteen fans to lobby for that. I bet it would cost a whole lot less than $250,000, too. Finally, as "Parkingsux" stated, this is just another example in a long string of fiscal irresponsibility by this town - which happens, as no coincidence, to have one of the highest tax rates in the state (and probably the country). | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 7104 Registered: 4-1997 |
Tony Smith's not a minimalist, but that's for another post. Your [Parkingsux] points have merit and if the sculpture were an outright purchase rather than a gift, I would be leaning against acquiring it. However, the gift is too generous to turn down and I think it will draw more people to visit South Orange's business area. | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 102 Registered: 5-2004 |
Dave, please define the "gift". I can't think of a single gift I've ever been presented that required me to spend money. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 7105 Registered: 4-1997 |
Rights of reproduction is a gift. If someone gives you a car, you have to buy gas and insurance. MHD, Do you think Tony Smith personally lifted all those steel pieces into place? The only artist original of a large sculpture like Tau is the plans on paper. (I think he made cardboard models, actually) | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2668 Registered: 5-2001 |
As I recall, Dave wasn't too keen on the last "gift" the town received - the dugouts from Seton Hall.  | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 103 Registered: 5-2004 |
Just because someone gives me a car, doesn't mean I have to accept it if it is something I don't need. And if I want/need it, but can't fit it into my already strapped budget, then I either politely decline a gift that has expensive maintenance, or I gratefully accept and sell it. I never owned a car until I moved to S. Orange just over 8 years ago (and I've been driving for decades). Why? Because I managed just fine with public transportation and the luxury of a car was more than my budget allowed for! Seems to me that this "gift" certainly is an "outright purchase" that so far is funded by $250K (57%) grant money (from where?) and $30K (6.82%) by private fundraising efforts and the rest by unsuspecting tax-payers who already believe their money was spent filling the area across the firehouse entrance. Surely some taxpayers actually LIKE the gazebo and fountain, Dave - they got there somehow. Is it just because you personally prefer the sculpture that justifies hiding this transaction from the public? Change the thread name so readers know what is being discussed here - it has very little to do with Trustee Rosen, except that he reportedly objects to the proposed location. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 297 Registered: 10-2004 |
Pdg - I cant agree with what you just said. For instance - if you get a gift of a plaid shirt you might just want to go out and buy yourself some pants to go with it. If you get a gift of a car - I am sure that you will have to buy the insurance, gas and maintain it yourself. I dont profess to be an art expert, nor do I like the look of the sculpture that Dave has kindly posted here, but I think that if the art draws in people to view it then it will have a good effect on the town as a whole. I am not in favor of tearing down the gazebo as mundane as it is to put up a piece that will notfit the look of the downtown and may in fact dominate the architecture. I do think that there are many other areas in South Orange that can support that art. editted to add the bolded not above | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 7106 Registered: 4-1997 |
 Barnett Newman, Jackson Pollack and Tony Smith (1951)
 (Pdg - if I had to keep renaming topics when they changed subjects I'd go mad) | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 104 Registered: 5-2004 |
Hoops, I agree with everything you said. The problem is the COST of this "gift", the proposed location and the fact that it all seems to be under wraps from the general public. And Dave, I sympathize about threads that change subject driving you mad. But unless I'm missing something, this thread has been about the big Tao since post #1. Too bad Sheena named it what she did, but in the interest of disclosure it might warrant a name change. (You have changed post names before, right? If you never do, I apologize - thought I'd seen similar requests in other threads.) And please don't get me wrong. I really enjoy art and even appreciate art that I'd never put in my own home, but do enjoy viewing. However, even if I liked this Tao (which I don't) I would still object to it being paid for, even partially, with tax dollars that are so desperately needed elsewhere. And even so, if it were a 100% cost free "gift", which I still maintain gifts should be, I'd still object to the proposed location without the BOT encouraging public feedback on the matter (as they did via the Gaslight with the horrible proposed lighted orange-on-a-pole that they contemplated building on SOAve.! You know, the one that the "small" orange on-a-pole in front of the middle school was a model for?) | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 847 Registered: 10-2004 |
Dave, so how would you categorize Smith's work if you think Minimalism is wrong? Monumentalism? | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 353 Registered: 4-2005 |
Art is very subjective folks. To me... it's a steel greek letter... to you it may be "breath taking"... Facts: 1) Funds were approved before there was money to spend. Remember "our children's credit card"? Oh I loved that line. 2) There must have been limited public input on this matter but then again, most people would not show up for a meeting to gripe about something that has been termed a "gift". 3) It's 25 x 20 feet and does not belong on Sloan Street. It just doesn't... please go sit by the fountains and watch the people and pretty firehouse... then imagine sitting behind Mr. Tau.. 4) Lets say for instance that for every 100k the Village has it's a possible 1% cut in your taxes (I know I know... I'm a student and don't pay property taxes but I will in less than 300 days... but in the meantime, I'm looking out for you guys) anyways... this statue potentially cost you or will cost you 2-3% increase.... hmmmm think of it that way (SPITZ - WHERE ARE YOU... THIS IS YOUR THING!!! TAXES) 5) It seems as though enough people have voiced opposition that it needs to be revisited. 6) The petition is on its way folks... if you don't want to sign... you don't have to. Pdg - where you at? You've got my back right? lol | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 354 Registered: 4-2005 |
Oh and Dave - you're a "piece of work" in my eyes... thus "art"... I've seen your blog and know your a fan of "art" so no hard feelings... | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 7107 Registered: 4-1997 |
That Tony Smith is one of the most important sculptors of the 20th century and was born in South Orange are not subjective. Whatever meaning you take away from the art is subjective. The purpose of the investment in public art is to show our values as a community go beyond restaurants and roads. (The average tax increase on $150,000 expenditure is $30. Include that in the petition.) As Tony Smith's grandfather was the designer of the first fire hydrant, the location in front of the fire house may be even more appropriate, but a park setting for it would be just as good. | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 106 Registered: 5-2004 |
I'm here Sheena - and grateful to you for this thread b/c I was clueless until I read it a few days ago! (BTW, Dave kindly posted a link to this thread for me in another thread I was reading, in which someone else mentioned this huge expensive sculpture and I asked about it. I never would have read this thread, which very much interests me, based on the title. Which is why I think a title change would be a service for others who may not realize they have an interest in this topic.) | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 107 Registered: 5-2004 |
The current fountain squirts water, and the firefighters use water to put out most fires, so perhaps it should not be torn down?  |
