| Author | Message | ||
     Stuart0628 Citizen Username: Stuart0628 Post Number: 117 Registered: 2-2003 |
Very interesting op-ed piece in this week's News-Wrecked by David Schechner (who knows a thing or two about local history!) about growing up in Tony Smith's neighborhood. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2691 Registered: 5-2001  |
Susan, Sure...let's buy Max Weinberg's drumsticks, Lauryn Hill's Grammys and Kevin Spacey's Oscars, too. While, we're at it, a Picasso a couple of Rembrandt's and a Michelangelo would be nice. Let's also pick up the Hope Diamond. People on this thread seem to have unlimited funds, so why not? I challenge anyone who supports this "project" to also state their annual Property Tax Bill and whether they think their taxes are "reasonable". Then state those answers to anyone elsewhere in the country and watch how hard they laugh at you. | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 934 Registered: 3-2002 |
MHD, As I've said before, I think that SOPAC should have a display case in the lobby with momentos from the wide variety of performing artists who have lived here over the years. Probably could be done by donation rather than purchase. Picasso, Rembrandt, Michelangelo and the Hope Diamond have nothing to do with South Orange, so lets leave them to the Met and Smithsonian. My property tax bill is fairly high, mainly because I live in a town with very few ratables, and because I live in a county with some substantial poverty. My home purchase cost was much lower for value received than in some of the nearby towns with lower tax rates, so it averages out, as we knew it would when we moved here. We did our research. Let's not take out all of our anger at the town, or the state, or the BOT on this one piece of sculpture. As I said before, I'm for a strictly limited subsidy (25% or so), a pause until funding is clear, and a rethinking of the site, uncontaminated by discussions about redevelopment grant rules. | ||
| talk-it-up Citizen Username: Talkitup Post Number: 174 Registered: 3-2004 |
The artwork cannot be endorsed without knowing the location. I strongly feel that the artwork should not be placed on the side of the firehouse it is not appropriate in that location. If it were proposed for the SOPAC side it would be much more appropriate. I also do not agree with the undoing of the gazebo and fountain. Money well spent and it should not be undone. It would then be money wasted. I am for five steps forward and no steps backward. There is a project presently underconstruction and the sculpture should be incorporated in that location of the SOPAC development. It is my understanding that the artist's wife is providing the gift with a string attached and that is the location. This is at least what I was able to understand from the Trustee's Meetings. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2692 Registered: 5-2001 |
I also got the impression that another "string attached" was the consultant hired for the site review(?), as well as who will be doing the construction of this replica. So, not only are taxpayers getting stuck with the bill, there are no options for sending the work out to bid to lessen the impact. | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 177 Registered: 5-2004  |
Wouldn't it be nice if we all didn't have to rely on other posters' impressions, speculation, and the occasional fact provided by MRosner? All of South Orange's residents should be fully informed about this project, including any "strings" attached to receiving this gift, and should be asked for their input as soon as possible. We can write our frustrations all day long on this message board - it may be a form of therapy, but likely will do little toward changing the way this has been handled to date! Please consider taking your writing to the next, more concrete level! Last week I sent a letter to Mr. Calabrese urging that they publish the complete details of this potential project in the News-Record, The Gas Light and on the township’s website. I also asked that interested residents be asked to submit their feedback, as was done with the proposed big orange on a pole years ago. I encourage all the posters on this thread to send a letter expressing your views on the Tony Smith Sculpture to VP Calabrese and copy the BOT members. They were elected to represent all of us - make sure they know what you want. Good night all!  | ||
| Stevef Citizen Username: Stevef Post Number: 92 Registered: 5-2005  |
I high-5'd Bill Calabrese, and whispered in his ear that Tony Smith is THE best. Beats writing any day! | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 178 Registered: 5-2004 |
Yes, Stevef. There seems to have been a lot of whispering going on, and there is the trouble. I'd guess 90% of the posts in this thread wouldn't exist at all if South Orange's residents had been included and informed from the start. | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 158 Registered: 6-2005 |
There are a few issues which keep getting intertwined in this thread, but upon which people may differ: 1. Should our tax dollars go towards the purchase of public art? (My opinion is that there are too many other needs which should be addressed first which are not being funded. Its like Maslow's hierarchy. We're not at the top of the pyramid yet. Let's take proper care of basics first. Things like infrastructure repairs, lowering car theft, restoring the pieces of "art" we already have like Baird and Village Hall, etc.) 2. In detail, what is the financial obligation of the town if it has already decided to accept this "gift" of art? (This is very murky, to me at least. There's talk of grant money, fund raisers, shifting money from here to there. Let's have the straight answer, please, BOT, somewhere in writing so we can all work off the same information. ) 3. Where should such art be placed in the village? (There needs to be some sort of consensus here and right now there is not. Personally, I am against the proposed location because it involves additional expenditure and ripping out improvements made just a few years ago.) Maybe each deserves its own thread. I'm not sure. | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 180 Registered: 5-2004 |
This is not the place to officially communicate with your elected representatives! Mail a letter! (Or hand-deliver if you prefer, just get it to the Man!) | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 181 Registered: 5-2004 |
Village President William Calabrese South Orange Village Town Hall 101 South Orange Avenue South Orange, NJ 07079 And ask him to please circulate a copy to the BOT | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 182 Registered: 5-2004 |
Good morning, Dave! I'm still looking forward to reading all the facts supporting your Petition Drive's claimed one-time $30 fee (and that is per taxpaying household, not per person, right?). (And look what I finally learned how to do from the handy Help/Instructions link! I'm so proud  )
I'm confident you wouldn't mislead the art-loving community of South Orange with unsupported facts, so please share with those of us who are craving solid information. I still wish our local government would publish the facts for the entire community, but morsels from the few on this thread who are part of the inner circle are most welcome! Thank you so much! | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2695 Registered: 5-2001 |
jayjay, GREAT post!! I think that sums it up for me. | ||
| The Oracle of MOL Supporter Username: Oracle_of_mol Post Number: 52 Registered: 2-2005  |
Ars longa, vita brevis. http://movies2.nytimes.com/2005/08/19/arts/design/19kimm.html?8hpib Go in peace. --The Oracle of MOL | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 183 Registered: 5-2004 |
I just learned that our Administrator, Mr. John Gross, is the Village employee responsible for making a recommendation to the VP & BOT as to whether a press release or other publication about a project should be made to the residents. I encourage everyone who agrees that the residents of South Orange would benefit from accurate information about the Tony Smith sculpture, to please contact Mr. Gross! Tell him you would appreciate detailed information being published in the News-Record and township website, and at least summarized in the Gas Light so that all South Orange residents have access to the facts and circumstances surrounding this project, instead of gossip and online speculation. Everyone would benefit. Those that support the sculpture would gain publicity, possibly renewing fund raising efforts and finding a very generous donor who was previously completely unaware of the project. (And then the tax-sensitive residents would benefit by having the public funding load reduced...) Those that oppose the sculpture would at least know the facts surrounding the finances, timing (we could learn "why now"), "strings" attached to the gift portion (if indeed there are any), reasons for location choice and whether another location is even an option at this point. If public art is truly for the public, the public should be made aware of all the pros/cons and choices. We need accurate and thorough information before we can reasonably determine whether we really want to be "active" enough to send a letter or stand up and speak on the official record at a BOT meeting. Imagine the effort and energy that would be wasted for someone to attend a BOT meeting, garner the courage to speak publically, on television etc. to then be told the information the point was based on was not correct. "Never mind." (ala Rosanna Rosanna Dana) If we are provided all the facts we may discover we don't have anything to be worked up about in some cases. It'd be good for everyone's blood pressure and would do a service for the unsuspecting residents who don't read these threads. Call John Gross at (973) 378-7715, then press 2 to get the Administrator's office. Or send an email to jgross@southorange.org Let's get the details out in the open and then act accordingly. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2696 Registered: 5-2001 |
It's Roseanne Roseannadanna  | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 7163 Registered: 4-1997  |
Heck, while people are at it they can ask for additional information about the recent $3,000,000 bond and other expenditures that make the budget for public art pale in significance. Great catch on the story, Oracle! How's your brother in Delphi these days? | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2697 Registered: 5-2001 |
Dave, I agree totally about the $3,000,000 bond, as well. It seems they issued a $3,000,000 bond "in case" they decide to spend it. How many of us can walk into a bank and request a $3,000,000 loan with no specific purpose just "in case" we need it? Add this "excessive spending" to the long list (subsidizing the quarry developer, Trustees paying themselves, making John Gross Administrator for life, etc etc etc etc etc etc) and you start to realize why the taxes in South Orange are one of the highest in the State. Meanwhile, many of our roads need paving, curbs need repairing, Village Hall needs maintenance, the Baird Center needs maintenance, our downtown needs a DRMC etc etc and the Village is spending a quarter of a million dollars on a statue. Saying "hey...it's just another $30" doesn't help. | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 388 Registered: 4-2005  |
Oh Spitzzzzz -- very nice catch. Change is made  | ||
| Pizzaz Supporter Username: Pizzaz Post Number: 2285 Registered: 11-2001  |
Spitz for Village Attorney! | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 185 Registered: 5-2004 |
MHD - thanks for the SNL correction - I learn so much on this website!  Seriously though, do you know where I can find a current ranking of property taxes by NJ city? I'd even take by county.
Everything I find on the internet is either regarding state taxes or is some sort of article highlighting the unfairness of NJ's property taxes as compared to other states. It seems to be "common knowledge" that Essex county is the highest taxed county in NJ, but I'd be very interested to see the complete ranking if it exists! Thanks! | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2699 Registered: 5-2001 |
PDG, There are a number of PDF's here, if you are inspired to wade through them to validate: http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/index.html?lpt/localtax.htm~mainFrame (Click on General Tax Rates by County and Municipality) | ||
| The Oracle of MOL Supporter Username: Oracle_of_mol Post Number: 53 Registered: 2-2005 |
Dave: You are entirely welcome. However, you are also somewhat confused. My brother Murray, Oracle of Melrose (who, unlike the mildly illogical but quite jocose title of a certain volume by the late American humorist Jack Douglas, is, as are all real Oracles, in fact, an only child), resides (alike to me in semi-retirement) blissfully in a modest hillside cave adjacent to the "HOLLYWOOD" sign in Los Angeles, California. We usually get together for the High Holidays, but that is another matter... The original oraclular entity of whom you speak has been completely retired since (roughly) the 4th Century, A.D., and is also female. Her name is Pythia, and until her thriving little business at the foot of Mt. Parnassus was closed down by Theodosius the Great (not so great, really...), she was busy "24/7" (a lamentable but crudely descriptive term you mortals have lately coined), so much so that she actually found it necessary to employ her two younger sisters, Forsythia and Ethel, to act in her place during her much-needed naps. Please understand: In those days, mortals believed even in things they did not see, and so naturally they found beauty in almost everything which they did see. Perhaps some of the more spiritually impoverished denizens of your benighted little online community should recall -- and perhaps attempt to embrace -- one of those qualities which made the Greeks so great in their time: a respect and reverence for public art... Go in peace. --The Oracle of MOL | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 187 Registered: 5-2004 |
MHD, Thank you so much!  Wow. There is sometimes a BIG gap between the "General Tax Rates" and the "Effective Tax Rates". I assume that the effective rate is what matters. If anyone else cares - 2004 South Orange 3.08 West Orange 3.09 Orange 3.89 East Orange 4.87 (highest in county) Maplewood 2.96 Millburn 1.8 Fairfield 1.73 (lowest in county) The highest in the state is Winfield Township at 12.6. The next highest is Audubon Park Bor. at 5.15. Most seem to be below 3, and very rarely 4+. I apologize for the slight thread drift! | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 392 Registered: 4-2005 |
Oracle - How old are you in mortal years? | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 191 Registered: 5-2004 |
Sheena - The Oracle must surely exist in such an exotic dimension that his being cannot be measured in 'time' as we mortals understand it! | ||
| The Oracle of MOL Supporter Username: Oracle_of_mol Post Number: 54 Registered: 2-2005 |
Ms. Sheena: Although most recent definitions of Fame (as known by earthly mortals within the last century or so) seem sadly lacking in serious standards of quality or real attainment, they do somewhat seem to apply to you these days. We of cosmic view, however, entertain the hope that despite your youth and (clearly) unflinching enjoyment of such public acclaim and attention as your recent exposure has granted you, you will strive to achieve recognition for achievement greater than the removal of felonious appellations from building facades. Libraries and other edifices come and go (ask the former LibraryLadies of Alexandria), as they are but dust. Fame is nothing. Knowledge is all and ageless, and from it alone comes power. Seek your future in The Good, and cleave to the sooth inscribed on the pillars at Delphi: "Know Thyself"... Now, as to your query, I shall reveal only what will not send you and your townsfolk running in blind panic down South Orange Avenue:  Go in peace, child. And go Pirates. --The Oracle of MOL | ||
| Parkingsux Citizen Username: Parkingsux Post Number: 89 Registered: 6-2005 |
Your personal quote says it all. | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 394 Registered: 4-2005 |
Oracle - Thanks for the answer. Not quite sure why you enjoy those subtle jabs at me but if they make you happy... well then continue on. | ||
| Lucy Supporter Username: Lucy Post Number: 558 Registered: 5-2005  |
Mr. Oracle.....BORING.... | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 196 Registered: 5-2004 |
Sheena, don't take it personally. Perhaps the 'Oracle' is just trying to bring you down a notch b/c so many on MOL just love you to pieces. Probably It would prefer we were unquestioningly and obediently offering sacrifices in his honor - something like $30 a head...(or is it $90? I just can't keep this straight!) | ||
| sac Supporter Username: Sac Post Number: 2555 Registered: 5-2001 |
Thread drift ... I can't find that discussion about misreading thread titles, but this thread keeps reminding me of it because somehow I always read "Pubic Art" instead of "Public Art". | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 200 Registered: 5-2004 |
Dave chose the name. It used to be called "Trustee Rosen is ON the Ball..." and I requested it be changed to more accurately reflect the discussion so others who might be interested would be able to tell from the title. Dave obliged after some coaxing and took the opportunity to slant the new title to reflect his very strong support for the 'once in a lifetime, get it now while we can opportunity' to obtain only this sculpture - not "public art" in general - regardless of cost, or anyone else's apparently unworthy thoughts on the matter. SAC, if you review the archives in this thread, I hope you will agree that South Orange's residents are clearly in need of accurate information about this project. And if so, I urge you to contact John Gross and request that he recommend to the BOT and Bill Calabrese that the details be made available to the public in the newspaper, the Gas Light newsletter and the village's official website. Have a great weekend! | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 202 Registered: 5-2004 |
Dave, I'll reply to your more than slight thread drift in a different thread, here.
First of all, I hope you won't continue to pursue me in all my posts on MOL. What does the, as you concede, paper-value of my house have to do with whether or not I want my taxes to go up so you can have your preferred choice of sculpture displayed? Don't you understand that there are at least two sides to this? For instance, you have yet to answer me as to whether or not YOU wanted the last contemplated S.O. "public art" - the big, giant, lighted orange (as in South Orange, get it?) that would glow nightly atop a very tall pole in the middle of S.O. Avenue. It's the same thing in MY opinion and I am just as entitled to an opinion as you are. And, as I've stated many, many times already - IF the residents of S.O. are appropriately informed of all the details in the newspaper, etc., and IF they are provided an opportunity to have their opinions considered and IF the majority of tax payers agree with you, that they will benefit greatly by doing this project exactly where it is currently contemplated, THEN, I will accept the will of my neighbors and move forward. I am not the one mocking others for not agreeing with me. I am not demanding my way or the highway and I am not proclaiming that you and everyone else in town will be better off if only you do what I want. It seems to me that you are, Dave, and it is not becoming - especially of a "moderator". I feel that I have learned a LOT from this thread and am convinced that most S.O. residents do NOT read MOL and do NOT have the degree of information that I now have. I believe the town is being inconsistent when you compare this proposed public art to the lighted orange. I think it is WRONG for the town to procede with this project, without informing the taxpayers in advance, when it involves such a significant number of tax dollars. The fact that I was lucky enough to move into S.O. when I did and all the houses around me now go for so much isn't "real" until we move. We don't plan on going anywhere for a long time, so yes, although it's none of your business, I do watch our money and almost every decision is carefully thought through. But you know what Dave? We found a Spanish painter whose work we really liked. We saved, and this year we hung one of his original oil paintings over our fireplace. I just love it. We had high-hat lights installed in the ceiling to better light the art we have collected. We use a dimmer switch to get just the right light. Every evening when I look at my paintings and lithographs my heart soars - I never stop loving them and actually find more to marvel at almost daily. You do not know me. Please stop with the insults. I won't try to force you to like what I like, and I'd appreciate the same courtesy. Let's agree to disagree. But one thing I think we should both agree on, is that the rest of South Orange residents deserve the common courtesy of knowledge of this pending expenditure. Because no matter how much you and Mr. Calabrese and the "large group of artists" involved (several of whom I'm told, are not even S.O. residents!) think you know what's best for all of us, we are not your children. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 7171 Registered: 4-1997 |
They weren't insults. I'm calling your bluff because I can't believe for a second anyone can make a campaign out of fighting a gift of public art to the Village that will result in a tiny incremental one-time gain in your taxes while providing a priceless gift to all the residents of, and visitors to, South Orange. I'm thinking you're simply Andy Kauffman coming back for a laugh. In case you haven't heard back from John Gross yet, the estimate for construction of the sculpture is $80k, the ongoing maintenance $200k. It's nice to hear you have a budget for art in your home for a Spansih artist. Tony Smith is from South Orange. Go in peace. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2702 Registered: 5-2001 |
Dave, I really am trying to figure out what "excites" you so much about this? Is it the idea of honoring a native son? Is it the "deal" we are getting on a piece of "art"? Is it this particular statue? Is it Tony Smith himself? Let's take the word "gift" out of the equation, because we all know the only gift is the tax break to the Tony Smith Estate. Do you really suggest that purchasing a 1/4 million dollar statue is the wisest use of our tax dollars? Do you really think the amount you already pay in taxes today is reasonable? What if another group now proposes we purchase a set of Max Weinberg's drumsticks, another group proposes we purchase Kevin Spacey's Oscar and another group proposes we purchase Lauryn Hill's Grammy? Would you support the use of tax dollars for all of those projects, as well? If not, why not? | ||
| noracoombs Citizen Username: Noracoombs Post Number: 106 Registered: 8-2002 |
I can't imaging that the "ongoing maintenance $200K" is an annual amount. For how many years is that amount estimated to provide maintenance for the sculpture? | ||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 793 Registered: 5-2003 |
I wrote a long rant a while ago, but was knocked off the internet before I could post it. MHD says it better than I did. We can't afford it! | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 401 Registered: 4-2005 |
Noracoombs - it's not "ongoing maintenance" it's the cost of tearing down what's already in place and constructing that entire area. The total cost is 440k (250k has come from a grant), the "rights" of the statue were donated (equivalent to 500k I believe) and then constructing the statue is about 80k. Oh yeah... and then there's the engineering company/consultants or whatever to do whatever it is they're needed to do which is big bucks again... It does DEFINITELY add up... MHD brings up the best point and that is a "slippery slope" that we will see. Dave - it's not just a "we'll pay $30 this one time for the statue". There's a lot of "principles" involved with this. There's transparency, there's priorities, there's communitcation and public input, and of course the spending of tax dollars (which I don't pay... I know... I know). If we were seeing positive redevelopment, if there weren't so many setbacks, if everything is where it should be... I don't think there would be a lot of fuss about a one time fee of $30. But that's not the reality right now... BTW Dave - you have been so outspoken about the other issues across the board that deals with mismanagement. Why is THIS issue so important to you? I'm not trying to rag on you in the least bit but you're normally so consistent with what you have to say and you've taken the other side on this one. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2703 Registered: 5-2001 |
I have decided to donate a "gift" to the town: my ebay login, so the town can have "the World's Largest Seri Indian Handmade all natural basket" http://cgi.ebay.com/Seri-Indian-hand-woven-basket-limberbush-worlds-largest_W0QQ itemZ7706554090QQcategoryZ4005QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Considering the Indians used to live here, I think we should honor them, by accepting this "gift". Think of the busloads of tourists that will descend upon our town to view the "world's largest" of something. I can't imagine anyone will mind spending the $300,000 of taxpayer money to use this gift. Right? |
