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susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 1287
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 10:22 pm: | 
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I really want to be green, but am having a hard time with this one. Our elderly train station car just died, and we need to pick our next vehicle.
Here are the specifics:
- Two adults, one 10 mile driving commute, one train station commute. With the uphill climb home and irregular commute hours, not having a second car is not an option for us (we lived without a parking pass for quite a while, and now that we have one, we use it!).
- We like to keep our cars a long time, so the new car will become the main family travel car, and our 6 year old sedan becomes the train car. Because of this, we need something comfortable, probably mid-sized, with decent luggage room.
- Thanks to the magic of AMT, we don't get to take advantage of tax credits for purchasing a hybrid, so need to make a decision based on the actual price.
Has anybody done the research on this? Any suggestions? Thanks |
Eats Shoots & Leaves
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 2878
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 11:09 pm: |
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We bought two where I work--a Prius and a Highlander Hybrid. The Prius is underpowered for driving around New York City if you are used to quickly accelerating, and you sit very low where all those SUV's can't see you when they abruptly shift lanes. The Highlander has better pep, but with the added horsepower and weight of an SUV, the trade off in mileage is so drastic as to almost make it not worth it financially. We purchased both mainly because as a company we have green goals, but the jury is still out on them.
Following is a really nice website that explains hybrids--it is pretty pro-hybrid, but also has clear explanations. We relied on this site, among others, to grasp the initial concept before comitting.
The key thing is that if you are willing to get rid of some of that need for acceleration, and can keep the car running mainly on the electric side of the house (gas usually kicks in for sustained highway driving, with the electric providing a boost for passing acceleration), it likely will use lots less gas and generate correspondingly less emissions. But if you drive a larger car with a heavy foot in and around town, it probably is not as efficient as they say. Hmmm, that is about the same for driving a 100% gas-powered car, come to think of it.....
Oh yeah, it is weird to turn on the car and not hear anything--they do not have starters; it is like turning on a light switch. When you test drive one, the car salespeople have kittens if you keep cranking on the key.
Good luck
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-car1.htm
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darrensager
Citizen
Username: Darrensager
Post Number: 218
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 11:41 pm: |
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Most of the car magazines have come out to say that they cannot justify the additional expense of a hybrid at this point. Maybe sometime in the future when the technology has come down in price. At this point, you'd be better off getting a Toyota Corrola that can get between 30-40 MPG and save yourself ten grand. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 3657
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 12:28 am: |
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What about the Honda Civic Hybird? How are they? |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 10323
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 7:37 am: |
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Susan, since it appears you keep cars for ten plus years I would be concerned with the durability of hybrids, especially the batteries, which are expensive to replace. If you decide to go this route read the warranty very carefully.
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darrensager
Citizen
Username: Darrensager
Post Number: 221
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 9:00 am: |
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If you want to know about the Honda Civic Hybrid pick up the latest issue of Popular Mechanics and read it. It compares the Civic Hybrid against the Civic LX, and the Toyota Highlander Hybrid against the gas version as well. The test is eye-opening for Hybrid cars.
I would agree with Bob K. There is no long term tests on how the batteries will last and what the cost to replace them will be. Chances are they will be very very expensive, almost as much as replacing an engine on a car. The cost benefits of hybrids just aren't there until the product becomes mainstream which drives down production costs. Hybrids I believe only represent about 1% of the vehicles purchased right now.
I would wait at least 5-7 years to see what happens with the batteries on these vehicles. If you are trying to be "green", there are plenty of vehicles out there today that are U-LEV (ultra low emissions vehicle) or SU-LEV (super low emissions vehicle) that will help make a difference.
If you want to be less dependent upon foreign oil, consider purchasing a diesel car, like a VW, and convert it to a vehicle that burns used vegtable oil. www.greasecar.com
Hybrids right now are still just political statements, not real world applications. Proof of this is that the Toyota Prius sells well because of its unique styling that screams "HYBRID", yet the Honda Accord Hybrid which looks just like a regular Accord sits on dealers lots getting dusty. |
wnb
Citizen
Username: Wnb
Post Number: 313
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 11:14 am: |
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If you care purely about mileage, look at the VW TDI engine. The TDI New Beetle for instance can easily and consistently get in the 70MPG range, and these are clean-running diesels. The kind of driving you're talking about, you could probably go three months between visits to the gas station!
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Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 10331
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 11:18 am: |
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Yeah Darren, but I heard the exhaust smells like french fries.  |
Grrrrrrrrrrr
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 199
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 12:07 pm: |
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Good one Bob,
I think the used veggie oil idea is a cool angle, but can't you see the headline now? "Local citizen found dead in alley behing Blue Moon Cafe" Seems to have been stabbed in a dispute with another diesel car owner over the vat of used vegatable oil kept there by the restaraunt...
As far as the hybrids go, I can't justify the total cost of ownership yet...the price needs to come down. It is overall less expensive at this point to get a Corolla or a Jetta Diesel. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 11989
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 1:00 pm: |
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which means that the desire to buy a hybrid has to come from a sense of duty to the environment rather than one's own pocketbook.
The advantage of a hybrid is slightly higher (or maybe I should say the disadvantage is lower) if you use it for short trips in town, because its fuel efficiency increases there, whereas fuel efficiency goes down with conventional motors.
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C Bataille
Citizen
Username: Nakaille
Post Number: 2411
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 1:03 pm: |
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If we all wait until the situation is perfect the car companies will give up the effort. If you're inclined to go green, do it. There are lots of happy hybrid drivers out there, many of them waiting for backorders on second cars.
I'm planning to make my next car a hybrid but since I buy cars with the expectation that I will drive them at least 10 years I hope I won't have missed the phase, or that something even better has been developed. Sure, changing batteries is costly, but so is getting a new transmission or the myriad other things you may need to do to maintain a standard car. |
mrmaplewood
Citizen
Username: Mrmaplewood
Post Number: 285
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 1:22 pm: |
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And a hybrid will be cheaper to maintain than a standard? Is a hybrid transmission cheaper than a conventional one?
I'm sure you will be able to pick up a cheap hybrid in a few years when the present owners consider whether to replace the battery or sell. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 10336
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 1:44 pm: |
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To bad Ashear is gone and Notehead doesn't seem to be around today. Both are happy Prius owners. There may be some sort of battery warrenty, but it is several thousand dollars to replace them.
The Prius has what is called a continous variable transmission (CVT) that is basically a series of belts and pullys. This system has been in use in Europe for maybe 20 years, but is new here. |
kmk
Supporter
Username: Kmk
Post Number: 922
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 2:31 pm: |
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I am a happy Highlander Hybrid owner!
I should qualify a few things however:
1) My husband's office pays for the lease.
2) We drove Volvo station wagons for the last 10 years.
3) We live in Maplewood with only one car (and three kids 11, 8 and 5)
4) We are a VERY tall family and we simply outgrew the second row of the Volvo.
5) We like to be "green" when given the chance.
6) I pay for gas.
All that said...we needed to replace our Volvo wagon with something with more legroom. I refused to pay more on gas. (And - I should add - my husband insisted on a sunroof.)
The Highlander fit the bill and I am enjoying using it.
It is peppy enough that I forget I am driving a hybrid. During those moments (when I am flooring it)I am sucking down the gasoline like a regular SUV.
I am pleased with it because it is "teaching" me how to drive more efficiently and my fuel expenses are just slightly less than what I spent on the Volvo (it had high-octane gas requirements.) The dashboard display of your gas consumption is much like a bio-feedback! You become far more attuned to your own driving habits.
By being early-adopters I hope to help send a message to Detroit. |
darrensager
Citizen
Username: Darrensager
Post Number: 223
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 2:46 pm: |
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Maybe I'll drive a VW TDI around town with the greasecar conversion after filling up at McDonalds and have everyone start to get hungry for french fries....
That or fill up the tank with used oil from Bill & Harry's and have them get hungry for egg rolls... |
peteglider
Citizen
Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 1714
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 4:39 pm: |
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A hybrid gets much better gas mileage, for sure.
BUT not so much better that, even at the current $$ for gas rate, that it will pay back in any decent amount of time.
That said, hybrids are far more complex mechanicllay, and the battery pack's are very expensive to replace ($3000 - $6000). Of course, since its new technology, no one really knows the impact of this on long term reliability. (but the battery pack will likely need to be replaced at about 6 - 8 years).
I have driven the Highlander and Lexus hybrids, and the Ford Escape hybrid. The Highlander and Lexus were great to drive -- I just thought the premium for the Lexus hybrid was obscene. The Ford, on the other hand, had so little "engine breaking" that I was not comfortable in it, and I would rule that out for a new driver (like my 17 yo daughter!).
I think the turbo diesels are great -- but the VW's are hard to get, the Mercedes (which I've also driven - and is wonderful) -- quite expensive.
My 2 cents -- buy the smallest car you can reasonably get away with for day to day use, and skip the "hemi" V-8 option! (and wait to buy a hybrid)
Pete
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susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 1294
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 11:56 pm: |
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Tom and C Battaille, you point at the reasons that I'd like to consider a hybrid. I would indeed pay a bit of a premium and consider taking on the battery life risk, if there is a car out there that meets my family's needs.
But if I buy a small car with a diminished trunk, then our 6 year old sedan has to keep being the car for long road trips for years to come, or we end up replacing it years sooner than anticipated, further running up the cost of the hybrid purchase. I'm doubting that the Prius is large enough to be the care for the occasional road trip. Also, of course, if we buy something too small to be a preferred family car, then we drive fewer miles in it, and give less benefit to the economy! (once we get the big SUVs off the road, I'll be more willing to consider small cars for family travel!)
So, here are the follow-up questions for those who have already researched this...are there any mid-sized/larger sedans (as opposed to SUVs) that are using hybrid technology to effectively improve gas milage? We probably aren't willing to wait for the 2007 cars to come out, given we are short a car now.
Thanks to those of you willing to educate me a bit...we are trying to accelerate this decision and appreciate the help. |
Grrrrrrrrrrr
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 201
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, January 20, 2006 - 3:17 am: |
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CVT has been around since the late 50's early 60's if IIRC. When I went with my family on a Vacation to Europe in the mid 70's, these friends of theirs had a DAF that was a belt drive, and it was really old then. I still remember riding in it and the man explaining to me how the belt drive technology worked. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 10343
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 20, 2006 - 4:45 am: |
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Honda has a hybrid version of the Accord for sale. It is very expensive because it is very lavishly equipted as well as because of the hybrid technology.
I would look at the Highlander,even if I was adverse to SUVs. It is basically a tall station wagon built on the Camry chasis with all wheel drive, not a true SUV.
Other than the Prius, many hybrid vehicles sacrifice gas mileage for performance. Both the Accord and Ford Escape hybrids are faster than the gasoline versions.
As far as the Prius is concerned the Guv'mint classifies it for interior room as an intermendiate car, the same as the Accord. That ovoid shape seems to work. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 11995
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 20, 2006 - 7:30 am: |
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The Prius isn't really that small. And it has a hatch rather than a trunk, which makes the space more useful than with a trunk. Take a close look.
I have owned three Saab hatchbacks, which seemed bigger on the insides than on the outsides. I would always blow people away when I showed how much I could fit in there.
The Honda Accord hybrid seems like a total loser to me. Rather than getting better gas mileage than the gas version, it just gives more power for the same mileage!
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kmk
Supporter
Username: Kmk
Post Number: 923
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 20, 2006 - 9:00 am: |
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FWIW:
The Highlander is really a modern-day station wagon. As far as SUV's go - it is very, very small.
It has a third row "way back" that seats 2 extra kids (something the Lexus does not have) and it happens to have 4 wheel drive.
My gas consumption has dropped slightly from when I was driving a Volvo wagon. It also comes with the built in navigation system....as a result we have come to rely on it! When we were in Texas over the holidays we missed our nav system desperately.
Maybe the new hybrid could become your primary car now. |
xavier67
Citizen
Username: Xavier67
Post Number: 618
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 8:53 am: |
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We had concerns about the cargo space of Prius, too, so we actually brought many of our luggage to the Toyota dealer (Route 22) and piled them in the back of the car. And it met our need. Now we're very happy with our Prius.
Prius comes with 8 year/100,000 miles warranty on its hybrid system including the batteries. |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 1302
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 11:16 am: |
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Just to be clear...is the cargo space of the Prius covered, or is what you are carrying visible?
Thanks |
peteglider
Citizen
Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 1725
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 7:44 pm: |
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BTW -- there is a max to the number of cars per model that qualify for the federal rebate -- 60,000.
I read in the past few days that Prius will hit that mark very shortly (next month, I believe).
After that, no more federal tax subsidies on that car.
I'm sure that's part of the reason all manufacturers are expanding their hybrid models.
/p |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 1304
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 12:50 pm: |
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No subsidies for us anyway, thanks to AMT issues, but I believe you are right. |
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