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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12090
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 9:57 am: | 
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They are safe topics, like the weather. In the city, we complained about the subway, etc. Neither is more shallow. They're just different.
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Handygirl
Citizen
Username: Handygirl
Post Number: 536
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 10:25 am: |
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And, honestly, if I don't know somebody very well, or I'm just tired (which I am a lot lately), I won't want to get into a discussion about politics or religion. Sometimes I'd rather talk about schools and real estate, which is what occupies a majority of my time nowadays anyway. But maybe that makes me part of the problem 
Handygirl
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Neen
Citizen
Username: Neen
Post Number: 215
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 11:29 am: |
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The thing is, an interesting topic doesn't have to be polarizing like politics or religion where you have either a total meeting of the minds or a heated argument, but you could discuss art, music, literature, architecture, theatre... I know that those topics often require a bit more of a time investment, but I also think it comes from the lack of local stimulus in these areas. |
Handygirl
Citizen
Username: Handygirl
Post Number: 537
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 11:47 am: |
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You see Neeen, that's the problem. To intelligently discuss art, music, literature, theatre etc. you really have to have some time to invest in those particular areas on an ongoing basis. Now, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but with a baby and a three year old, and a full time++ job, and three or four home improvement projects going at any one time I do not have time to keep up with the latest art exhibit, concert or broadway show. In fact, it's been ages since I've even seen a movie or been out to dinner with my husband, let alone gone to anything in the city. Eventually, I expect that I will have time to devote to these interests, but not now. I don't even have time to read my weekly copy of TONY anymore. I can barely manage as it is. So, that may make me a pleasant but uninteresting conversationalist for the time being, but I'm OK with that. As for local stimulus, even if there were events in SO every night of the week, I doubt, at the present time, I would even have the wherewithall to take advantage.
Handygirl
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Neen
Citizen
Username: Neen
Post Number: 216
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 1:26 pm: |
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Handygirl,
I didn't mean to criticize. I totally understand where you are coming from. |
Handygirl
Citizen
Username: Handygirl
Post Number: 538
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 1:33 pm: |
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Neen - I really didn't take it as a criticim. I'm just venting in general I think. I look forward to a time when I have interesting things to talk about again
Handygirl
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Wendyn
Supporter
Username: Wendyn
Post Number: 2664
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 1:41 pm: |
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Handy, we are basically the same person (except my kids are 5 (today!) and 2).
I went to see Brokeback Mountain a couple of weeks ago with some friends. Am dying to talk about it with other friends but they always say "oh I so want to see that! Don't tell me what happens!". It is funny how whenever any of my friends gets to go out (to dinner/movie/theater/whatever) it becomes the big topic of conversation because we all so rarely get a chance to do anything!
But hey, I'm seeing Disney Princesses on Ice on Sunday (bday present for 5 year old). That must count for something, right? |
Handygirl
Citizen
Username: Handygirl
Post Number: 539
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 2:08 pm: |
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Happy birthday to your 5 year old Wendyn!
So, Neen, does Disney Princesses on Ice count? I think that it is more theater than theatre
Handygirl
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doulamomma
Citizen
Username: Doulamomma
Post Number: 873
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 6:21 pm: |
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Wendyn,
I saw Brokeback...would love to chat about it too
happy bday to little wendyn from doula son #2! |
Smarty Jones
Citizen
Username: Birdstone
Post Number: 238
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 7:13 pm: |
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Since so many people move to the suburbs when they first have kids, I wonder how much of missing the city revolves around missing the life without kids? Is it possible that we might be reminiscing about advantages of life without kids, and not sure how to distinguish between the two? Does the city take on a glamorous memory because the time you spent there was either as a single person, or with your spouse eating out (or ordering in) 7 nights a week?
I just re-read the article, and one of the things that struck me was the family highlighted had a multi-million dollar house in Pound Ridge, and all the while kept the mortgage on their Million dollar loft (1800 sq foot) in Tribeca. I don't know about most of you, but I couldn't afford two Multi-million dollar mortgages.
My feeling was that you can live on the cheap in the city w/out kids (dual incomes, small apt), but things changed once you had kids, and you really needed big money to continue to enjoy yourself as much as you were used to.
My $12,000 tax bill is annoying, but no where NEAR annoying as a $20,000 pre-school/kindergarten bill.
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taam
Citizen
Username: Taam
Post Number: 30
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 7:17 pm: |
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smarty, you make a very good point & i think you might be right...at least w/ me. |
algebra2
Supporter
Username: Algebra2
Post Number: 3955
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 7:25 pm: |
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I don't miss city living ONE BIT. I thought I would, but I don't. My life is in now way centerered around lawn work, home fix-it projects or talking about kid stuff. I enjoy my neighbors. |
gretchen
Citizen
Username: Gretchen
Post Number: 199
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 9:04 pm: |
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I browse the real estate listings regularly and am constantly calculating how much apartment we will be able to afford when the kids are out of the house. I love Maplewood, but I don't really know why I'd be here if we didn't have kids.
Of course, since daughter number one (age 7) tells me that she's going to Seton Hall so she can live at home and that I'll have to drive her there because she's never going to drive alone, I could be here awhile... |
Jersey Boy
Citizen
Username: Jersey_boy
Post Number: 63
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 9:31 pm: |
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I'm jersey boy for a reason. I've never lived in NYC. I've done upstate New York, Boston, Maine. Some short stints in San Francisco. I've been thinking about this thread a lot lately.
I never compared the different places I've lived. I don't want to get all preachy, but I thought about this old country parable.
An old man who lives near the town border is sitting on his porch and a car pulls up. The people in the car ask, "We're thinking of moving to this town what are the people here like?"
Old man says, "Well what were the people like were you came from?"
People say, "Awful back-biting good for nothing gossips."
Old man says, "Yep that's what the people here are like too."
Car drives off. Man lights his pipe. Another car drives up. The people in the car say, "We're thinking of moving to this town. What are the people here like?"
Old man says, "Well," takes a puff on the pipe, "what were the people like where you came from."
People in car say, "Oh, they were wonderful neighbors. We had many close friends. We felt safe and when we were in trouble we only had to go to the nearest house to find help."
Old man puffs on his pipe and says, "Yep, that's what people here are like too."
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Mtam
Citizen
Username: Mtam
Post Number: 31
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 10:52 pm: |
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I think it's different when you liked a place, but had to move because it really wasn't possible to stay (i.e., too difficult/expensive) to have kids there. You look back over your shoulder because you don't feel you completely made the choice on your own accord.
I thought for sure I'd get flamed on my comments about conversation and subjects! I have two young children and a very pressured career and I have to say, it still matters to me to keep up with an adult life. I'm not parading myself or criticizing others, but it then makes it hard to be in a community where that might not be so for others (and yes, I think M/SO is not uniformly this way). I'm as interested in the recent elections in Israel, the Van Gogh show at the Met, Brokeback Mountain, what's happening in New Orleans-and what's the street fashion in NY this year. I don't stop being a thinking adult just because I have kids and a porch. That's why, though, I have no garden to speak of and mudholes in my lawn. And it isn't about being a good conversationalist. It's just, to me, what the world's about.
I do have a lot of friends who are raising their kids in the city. Some make do and use the public schools. Some have enough money to use private schools. So I guess I always have points of comparison. Most of the time, I enjoy what my kids are getting here, and that helps. The description of apartment hallways, etc. I just don't feel like living with right now. And I really like the idea of my kids going to a neighborhood school, growing up with local kids and a real community. I don't feel my friends in the city have that. What I've come to realize is that just because my children may be more defined locally doesn't mean I have to be too. Too, when my kids are older, I could see living in the city again.
Someone asked me how SO/M seems better. Well, I guess I'm beginning to see some of the businesses that have the kind of flair and personality that I miss from the city--be it Pen and Jen's, or The Goat, or Abode or Milk Money. I love the new yoga studio, something that was a big part of my life in the city. And I suppose the longer you live in a place you get to know those with whom you might have more of an affinity, and you also have a deeper sense of the strata of a community. I know I'm showing my stripes--an UPW/Brooklyn/Village person. But that's my point of comparison, not other suburbs. I didn't grow up in the suburbs, and I spent a lot of my childhood traveling abroad, so I can't be grateful that I'm not in a McMansion outer ring--that was never an option. |
Mtam
Citizen
Username: Mtam
Post Number: 32
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 10:56 pm: |
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Oh, also--I too was struck by the couple who kept their 1800 foot loft and went back to it. Well, that's hardly an option for the rest of us! That's a kind of shopping for lifestyle that most can't do.
But I did identify with those who talked about seeing their girlfriends or friends after work, and it wasn't a big deal. Yes, some of that is a pre-kid nostaliga. But even after my first child was born, I remember putting him down by 8 and then occasionally going for a neighborhood drink with a girlfriend, maybe even a movie. It was exhiliarating. That's what I miss. |
algebra2
Supporter
Username: Algebra2
Post Number: 3957
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 11:00 pm: |
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I find I socialize more here a bit more than I did in the city. After I put kid to sleep I sometimes walk to a friends and have a few glasses of wine. My city friends are my college friends -- I really didn't meet many new friends in the city. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12096
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 11:22 pm: |
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Some scattered thoughts:
Why do so many people find the suburbs better suited to raising kids? I find it striking to hear it from people who prefer to live in the city. I lived on the upper west side. We were middle income. My sister is still there, raising a son. I am not sure, but I don't think her family is rich. They're very happy there and wouldn't think of moving out. I can see the money argument, but are there other compelling arguments?
Safe topics for conversation are safe for many reasons. One is that you can jump into and out of them easily. You need not only experience with the arts or whatever, but you need a rapport with the other person.
If you keep an apartment in the city for when the kids move out, can't you rent it out and break even on it until you move back into it?
My ex-wife and I (when we were recently married) moved from NYC to Edison, NJ. We have kids together, and the kids live with me. I can't legally leave NJ, so my task was to find a town that I like. That's why my new wife and I chose Maplewood. We considered moving to NYC but it seemed hard in many respects, and the legal hurdle may have been insurmountable. Having moved here from Edison makes me feel like I'm in heaven. In the Edison area, people are interested in spectator sports and pop culture. I remember an ad on the local radio for a local paper which asked why you would want to read a paper about non-local events. The slogan was, "Who cay-uhs! Ya don' live day-uh!" Ahem. Maybe I care. I'm glad to have left that area. Except oops, my current workplace is there. I do like the Indian culture there, however.
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Smarty Jones
Citizen
Username: Birdstone
Post Number: 249
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 8:01 am: |
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I don't think it's fair to suggest that the people/conversation/intellectual factor is different in SO/M vs. what you were accustomed to in the city, for the very fact that so many in this town are from the city. (4/6 immediate neighbors moved out from NYC)....this board is CHOCK full of us....I guess thats why I am starting to think it's more of a glamorization of the past that takes place.
One thing that REALLY REALLY helped, was when we hired all of our house-services (House cleaning, Lawn care, etc.) I started off, like everyone else, trying to do my own little lawn and gardening, and I utterly hated it. I suppose I was going to embrace the suburban culture whole-heartedly. Now that it all gets done without thinking about it, my life is so much less consumed by these meaningless tasks.
I'd recommend this approach as terrific therapy for anyone missing their apartment lifestlyes! Weekends are for enjoying the town/area, not for slaving in your yard. |
Carla
Citizen
Username: Elbowroom
Post Number: 33
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 8:45 am: |
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This talk about intellectual factor and conversation is arrogant and meaningless. You can have an interesting and satisfying conversation with just about anybody if both parties are willing to be open and honest. Great conversation can happen anywhere. |
Mtam
Citizen
Username: Mtam
Post Number: 33
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 8:53 am: |
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I'm with you, Smarty Jones, about weekends. That was the breakthrough for me. I'm just not much on the yard thing, but I'm up for a walk in Central Park on Sunday. I've been putting off my Home Depot runs for over a year now.
I don't think you can suggest that my experience about conversations is invalid, however. This isn't about fairness. That is and was my experience, and I think it comes from any environment where one of the prime reasons for living here is children and space and houses. So that becomes the focus, even if people might have those other interests, or once did. I also think it comes from the fact that in a city, it's a more heterogeneous experience--people who are not just doing what you're doing. They might or might not have children, for instance. It's not as dominant. I don't think it's about safety or level of comfort--if you're in a culture where someone automatically starts talking about politics or the arts, rather than a play space, or an issue with a child, that's just what it is.
That said, there's something I really think Maplewood has that the city does not--in fact, if we send our children to the public schools, I'm convinced they get a wider, more heterogeneous range of expoerience than in the city, interacting with children of different backgrounds. I think the middle and especially the upper middle class in the city can be more cosseted. The schools or programs my friends send their kids to are not as integrated, for sure. So in that sense, even if my experience as an adult is narrowing to parents, I believe my children's experiences are widening. That means a huge amount to me.
I also wonder if there's an element of gendered experience. I notice men are much more able to immediately start talking about their work or events (or sports, I suppose--I've been told that's the 'safe' topic) I find women find their safe ground is children, and perhaps this is because when you first meet someone you're not sure if they are a stay at home or a working mother, and there's a nervousness about saying the wrong thing, etc. But frankly my work is what's on my mind a lot, and it takes some pushing for that to crop up, unless it's among acquaintances/friends wtih whom I share that occupation, etc. I do think women, unconsciously, and maybe with the prod of living in the suburbs, are more willing to subsume themselves into childrearing. I've had hour-long conversations with female acquaintances about what pre-school to send a child to. (And I'm someone who can gab about that for quite a while, too.) However, I don't think any of my male acquaintances would last that long on the subject. |
Mtam
Citizen
Username: Mtam
Post Number: 34
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 8:56 am: |
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No, Carla, it is not arrogant and meaningless. It's arrogant and meaningless to not mull over or probe cultural differences that can exist even in the subtlest of ways. Perhaps your idea of a great conversation is not mine. |
Handygirl
Citizen
Username: Handygirl
Post Number: 541
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 11:27 am: |
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Mtam, I don't think that you were "flamed" yesterday about your comments regarding your lack of interesting conversations since moving to M/SO. However, I feel a bit like flaming you for your post last night at 10:52pm - but I won't, well I will try not to, I'll try to stick to the facts
You said:
"it still matters to me to keep up with an adult life. I'm not parading myself or criticizing others, but it then makes it hard to be in a community where that might not be so for others"
Yes, you are criticizing others - directly even. I read your post as a direct criticim of all of us who might not currently (or generally) have the same interests as you. Also, you categorize a show at the Met and Brokeback Mountain as "adult interests", while implying that adding a patio or renovating an old 1920s colonial (i.e. topics related to houses) is, what? toddler-speak?
Not everyone (adult or otherwise) has the same interests as you (not in NYC and not in M/SO), and people's interests change and evolve over time as well. So, just because someone hasn't seen Brokeback Mountain or doesn't feel getting into a discussion about the recent elections in Israel (see my previous post about discussing politics) doesn't mean that they are not keeping up with "an adult life". And it is insulting and arrogant to imply or state otherwise.
You also said:
"I don't stop being a thinking adult just because I have kids and a porch. That's why, though, I have no garden to speak of and mudholes in my lawn. And it isn't about being a good conversationalist. It's just, to me, what the world's about."
Yet another pompous statement. To say that anyone who doesn't have similar interests as you has ceased to be a "thinking adult" is just, arrogant and judgmental. Also, apparently, to you I'm not down with what the "world is about" because I do not necessarily want to talk about the Met or NY fashions or politics or any other topic that YOU find interesting. I don't agree. I think that the "world is about" different things to different people.
You may rather spend your time analyzing "street fashion in NY this year", which I, personally, find somewhat inane, but go for it if it makes you happy. I would rather pass on that, particular activity (as well as others that you mentioned) and go to home depot and renovate my house. That's just what I am interested in right now. And given my time constraints due to family, job and home, that's what I can do at the present time. I've prioritized and you have prioritized. Just differently. It doesn't make me any less of an adult than you.
OK, some flaming, but I think deserved. If I am wrong and it isn't deserved, than I apologize - sort of. ;)
Handygirl
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Handygirl
Citizen
Username: Handygirl
Post Number: 542
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 11:30 am: |
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Smarty,
Your post from last night was insightful and, I think, on the money. You nailed it - at least for me. Thanks man.
Handygirl
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Wendyn
Supporter
Username: Wendyn
Post Number: 2669
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:09 pm: |
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I go out at least once a month with different groups of friends, usually after I help put the kids to bed.
So I recently got together with some local women friends who all have kids and discussed:
- Family issues (including kids)
- Politics
- Religion
- Work (be it outside or inside the home)
- Laundry
- Diet/exercise
- Home renovations/decorating
- Gardening
Got together with a couple of single friends in NYC and discussed:
- Family issues (including kids)
- Politics
- Dating
- Home renovations/decorating
- Diet/exercise
- Work
- Hair (styling of and removal of)
- Clothes/fashion
I didn't really feel like either conversation was intellectually superior to the other. Both groups are comprised of well educated, thoughtful, interesting women.
But then maybe I and my friends are all stupid and uninteresting and we need to move to NYC to become better conversationalists. |
Meandtheboys
Citizen
Username: Meandtheboys
Post Number: 2791
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:39 pm: |
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Handygirl and Wendyn said it better than I could have.
So......what they said! |
Shanabana
Citizen
Username: Shanabana
Post Number: 148
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 1:48 pm: |
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I do the same things here I did there. I work in the same place (NYC), stay home a lot with my famil, go see art (NYC), and see friends in both places. We're sooooo close to NYC!! I really don't understand the complaint. And the concept that NYC is full of sophistocated intelligent people makes me laugh. Seems there is a MUCH higher average educational level here in Maplewood-South Orange. Maybe the real nostalgia I'm reading about is popping out for a drink in a hip bar, rather than intelligent conversation? |
Urbanretreat
Citizen
Username: Urbanretreat
Post Number: 19
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 2:44 pm: |
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Yeah, I don't get the "lack of conversation" thing. If I am feeling banter deprived, I just look in the mirror and dialogue as follows:
Me: "Who is sexy?"
Me: "You are."
Me: "Who is brilliant?"
Me: "You are."
Me: "Who is going to eat those potato chips"
Me: "You are."
That keeps me going for a while. You should try it. |
Handygirl
Citizen
Username: Handygirl
Post Number: 543
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 3:02 pm: |
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Handygirl
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Joe
Citizen
Username: Gonets
Post Number: 1146
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 3:20 pm: |
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I have just the opposite situation. I had a blue-collar job for 13 years, graduating to the so-called “professional”arena not quite 10 years ago. I find myself missing the guys I worked with and the stuff we used to talk about. There was a lot more freedom to say what was on your mind. If you thought someone was acting like an a-hole, you said exactly that. You never had to glean a subtext or agenda. You pretty much knew where people stood on things. I also admire scatological skill, as opposed to simple vulgarity. Some people had a way with invective that really left me in stitches. I’m a fan of curmudgeons, and blue-collar curmudgeons are my favorites.
Don’t get me wrong I love a good deep, philosophical conversation too. And we had plenty of those as well. In fact I think we had deeper conversations than I typically enjoy among my professional “colleagues” (at what level do your co-workers become colleagues? Do coal miners have colleagues?)--mainly because of the greater freedom in our conversations. None of this is to say that I have regrets about where I live now. I love this town and there are plenty of colorful people for me to talk to. Nor do I have regrets about abandoning blue-collar work. It’s no fun getting hurt on a Monday and realizing you’ll just have to deal with it the rest of the week. But I do miss telling a particularly whiny colleague to “Quit your f---in b---in, you f---in crybaby.” Ah those were the days.
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Urbanretreat
Citizen
Username: Urbanretreat
Post Number: 20
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 3:50 pm: |
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Joe,
I think the "professional" workplace may be changing for the better. Maybe candor is next.
http://www.satirewire.com/news/032700/satire-slaphappy.shtml |
sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 2291
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 4:21 pm: |
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Handygirl - I thought the same as you about Mtam's comments. I hate that "I'm from the city and I'm oh so cosmopolitan" attitude. Joe I'm with you. I had just as many interesting coversations with the guys I worked with when I had my blue collar summer jobs as I do now with the "professionals." I could care less if you've never been to the Met or to a Broadway show. I've been to all of them many times and I'd much rather discuss my son or installing crown moulding than art or theater any day. But hey if that's what you like, more power to you.
I lived in the city and I hated it. Still try to avoid the city when I can. I hated living there and I hated working there, especially commuting and riding the subways in a suit on a hot, muggy August afternoon. I could care less about being able to walk everywhere or the fact that there were so many cultural events. I couldn't wait to get out of the city on weekends. You can keep the city - give me the burbs any day or rather give me a nice 20 acre plot of land somewhere far away from all these pseudo-intellectuals. |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 8499
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 5:25 pm: |
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I wonder if that's a gendered experience. |
Shanabana
Citizen
Username: Shanabana
Post Number: 155
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 12:29 pm: |
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Dave, what? |
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