| Author |
Message |
    
IShep
Citizen
Username: Twinsmom
Post Number: 151
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 10:43 am: | 
|
Hi--I've seen such wonderful advice and support on this board, I thought I might give it a try. Even my husband who makes fun of me for going on MOL as frequently as I do even after we moved to PA suggested I do so.
Some background: I have 6 1/2 year-old b/g twins and an almost 3 year-old boy. We moved here last summer, and the twins repeated Kindergarten here as they missed the cut off by a couple of weeks. So, though I'm sure they miss SO and their friends there and that the move was emotionally difficult, keep in mind that they started with a classroom of all new kids. That is, they didn't have to "fit in" to an existing classroom of kids. In addition, our move was about restructuring our lives. I work from home but have to travel and my husband and I decided that he should be Stay At Home Dad at least until our youngest is in 1st grade--so that there is always a parent at home.
That said, my daughter has always been intense, "spirited", happy, extroverted, focused, driven, hard on herself, smart, etc. In addition, she has never had trouble making friends. She also tends to be secretive, bossy, melodramatic and nervous.
Recently, like in the past month or two she has been incredibily defiant, disrespectful, and downright rude to my husband and I. She whines, stomps her feet, yells, cries, even made a half-hearted attempt to kick my husband yesterday, when she doesn't get what she wants. She has a difficult time with transitions and if her expectations are not met (such as a last minute playdate cancellation) she goes ballistic.
We've tried taking privileges away, taking her to have a very "nice" talk with the guidance counselor at school, Mom spending more alone time with her, etc. and nothing has worked.
I suspect that part of this must have to do with the fact that my almost 3 year-old is also intense, spirited, prone to tantrums, willful, etc. and that she must feel that he gets away with it because of course we handle him very differently in these situations.
We were initially approaching her poor behavior with "losing privileges" and that wasn't working. Now, we have turned that around and she must "earn" her privileges: which includes everything from playdates, new CDs, storytime with Mom and Dad, to fun days out, trips to the library, to special treats, etc. It's too early to see if that will work.
Do any of you have any other possible solutions? My daughter has never been purposely disrespectful and rude before these last few months--and for such a stretch of time.
I also must tell you that I've talked to the teacher and she tells me that my daughter is "a dream" in class and gets along well with others.
Thoughts? |
WendyP
Citizen
Username: Meandtheboys
Post Number: 3270
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 10:57 am: |
|
It sounds like you've tried every reasonable approach there is to this behavior. Could be it's just another "phase" she needs to get through and you'll just have to wait it out until she does. Could be your best course of action now is a "tough love" approach. I'm thinking specifically of the attempt to kick her dad. Were that me and my child, the child would have been removed to his room immediately. I think 6 1/2 years old is old enough to understand the certain behavior is absolutely unacceptable, regardless of the reason or motivation behind the behavior. And I think 6 1/2 is old enough to understand--and have explained to her--that 3-year-olds get treated differently than 6-year-olds, in both positive and negative ways. So, if the little one maybe gets away with tantrums while the older one does not, you can point out there are a lot of fun things the older one gets to do simply because she is older that the little one does not get to do.
I think you can be understanding of the reasons why she gets upset, but still be firm in making clear what behavior is acceptable and what is not.
Then again, that's just my 2 cents. Take it for what it's worth. Good luck. The fact that you are concerned about how to handle this situation is a good indicator that you are trying to do right by her. That, in itself, is more than a lot of parents would do. |
doulamomma
Citizen
Username: Doulamomma
Post Number: 1231
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 10:58 am: |
|
Without knowing your family, but reading the background you provide, it sounds like you have dealt with tranitions in a way that would cause the least issue for your kids.
I'll just say that 6.5/7 is a big time of transformation/self expression. There was recently a thread on how the half birthday is perhaps the time of most intense issues...and I believe/have read that 7 is generally a watershed age...my oldest is 8 & looking back I know it was true for him.
As I'm sure you know, our children generally act out against those to whom they feel closest, as this is a safe way to test boundaries. But man is it frustrating and hard to be the parents at those times!
So again, it sounds like a time to keep repeating "This, too, shall pass".
Good luck! |
CageyD
Citizen
Username: Cageyd
Post Number: 659
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 11:00 am: |
|
Ishep,
I had a similar thing happen to me with one of mine. While it was going on I confided to a coworker who had been a child psychologist in Europe and was waiting for he liscencing to go through here so she could practice. After listening to my situation she said spending more time with the child one on one would make a difference. Further, she said to let my kid know that this spending time together was intentional and designed to bring us closer. I was skeptical but set aside two afternoons a week for mommy and me time at the play ground or somewhere else out of the house where I couldn't be distracted by the responsibilities of the home.
It really made a big difference in my child's attitude. He began to feel quite special about his mommy and me time and he really looked forward to it. It sounds like you've tried it too, hopefully after a while it will help to calm things down. Good luck |
IShep
Citizen
Username: Twinsmom
Post Number: 152
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 11:13 am: |
|
You know, I've heard that this might be a phase, and I pray that is true. My daughter often uses the line: "I don't know why I act this way, I can't help it" obviously not taking responsibility for her actions. I personally suffer from similar personality traits (namely, my intensity and impulsive tendencies in addition to being prone to anger easily) so I share with her that it is not acceptable to express her anger in that way, that she must breathe, count to ten, and use her words to express her anger. I work on myself all the time and she needs to do the same.
My own mother often dismissed my feelings (that was her approach to minimize the situation) which made me even angrier. Thus, I don't take the same approach with my daughter. I really try to validate her feelings but to show her how to express them more productively. Honestly, though, the energy this has been taking with her is sometimes too much for my husband and I and we often find ourselves needing to take turns with her! This is exhausting.
I guess, I am trying so hard to identify the "issue" that is causing this behavior, but perhaps there is no "one issue". It would be so much easier to resolve it if it were.
I do indeed hope this is a phase and that it passes SOON!
Oh, and by the way, my daughter was sent to her room IMMEDIATELY after kicking my husband...not at ALL acceptable, I agree.
Thanks again. Keep it coming. These responses are really helping! |
kmk
Supporter
Username: Kmk
Post Number: 1083
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 11:15 am: |
|
I have the same "your kid is a dream at school" and in reality she is a beast at home time with my kid now. She is 5 1/2 and in Kindergarten. The teacher and I are very communicative and I swear the two behaviors are directly proportional! The more well behaved and controlled she is at school (on library days, recital days etc.) the more out of control she is at home.
Just this morning she was sobbing that she did not want to go to school. After 45 minutes of trying toget to the root of the problem she finally blurted out - "I want to spend some fun time with you without the sisters!".
I decided just this morning that we need to do exactly what CageyD just described.
Perhaps you should have at least one "given" time together to discuss all things good and bad - even without her having to earn it. A sort of unconditional love moment!
Hang in there. |
Bettina
Citizen
Username: Bettina
Post Number: 125
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 11:16 am: |
|
I think the advice you got from all of the above is so excellent. I have a similar temperamented little boy, granted he's only 4 and 1/2, but he has challenged me so much in the past three years. I often just cried in frustration. I also felt so conflicted between two positions: as a psychologist, I wanted to understand his behavior and empathize with him, and also not hurt his self-esteem by making so many interactions with him negative. I think CageyD's advice to spend time alone with your little girl is so great in terms of addressing that aspect of your relationship. But I have also seen that empathizing/understanding attitude taken too far, in parents with challenging children and in myself at times, where the child really needs to know very firm limits. I read a good book that described kids like these as having the job of pushing the limits - that is their nature, and they need to know the limits are always there, more clearly than other more compliant kids. I know I'm mostly just repeating what others said, but raising my son, (especially after my incredibly easy-going older daughter) has been on of the most challenging experiences of my life. So I sympathize. Good luck! |
IShep
Citizen
Username: Twinsmom
Post Number: 153
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 11:27 am: |
|
Bettina...I feel like you really understand my daughter's personality. The one on one time I've been spending with her...well it just doesn't seem to help, though I so want it to. However, maybe I haven't done it long enough so I will keep trying that out.
The truth is, she is really always pushing the limits, testing the boundaries etc. And, my efforts to address the issues at hand never seem strong enough, I guess because we haven't seen any changes.
Let me give you an example of something that floored me with her. When I took her to the guidance counselor at school (whom my daughter just adores) and had our nice chat, she was asked to draw a picture of what made her angry. She drew a picture of her twin brother and told us he often annoyed her and how it isn't fair that he gets to go to school in the afternoon and she has to wake up early to go in the morning, etc. You know, the old, "it's not fair" thing.
Then I took her out to lunch...one on one. I brought up her brother and the fairness issue, and she says: "You know, I didn't mean any of that. Mrs. Yackel was just trying to get something out of me and it's the first thing I thought of. [My brother] isn't really the problem."
Intense, huh? |
IShep
Citizen
Username: Twinsmom
Post Number: 154
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 11:28 am: |
|
By the way, Bettina, what is the title of the book you mention? |
kmk
Supporter
Username: Kmk
Post Number: 1084
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 11:36 am: |
|
My husband has seen me indulge our daughter, on occasion, with silly things like letting her be carried and drink out of a sippy cup. Yet he is always still shocked when I just as easily (if not more so) march her up to her room during dinner if she is acting innappropriately!
I love setting limits and I just try (and it's hard) not to apply them to every aspect of my challenging kid's life!
One of our favorite stories was when we overheard this same child at age 3 playing "This little piggy" in the back seat of the car with her own toes. She of course had taken off her shoes and socks...(We learned early on to ask for the shoes because they would sometimes come flying into the front seat "by accident.")
Her words to the nursery rhyme cracked us up and gave us some insight into her world:
For the first four toes she said, "This little piggy gets a time out!", "And this little piggy gets a time out!", "And this little piggy gets a time out!", etc. For the fifth toe she said, "And this little piggy went, wee wee wee all the way home!" We were all laughing our pants off. |
Wendyn
Supporter
Username: Wendyn
Post Number: 2797
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 11:38 am: |
|
I'm going through this right now too.
First I want to recommend (if you haven't read them already) these books:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exa ct=Adele%20Faber&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/102-3267972-98889 15
Particularly "How to Talk..." and "Liberated Parents...". Whenever we have an especially bad day I pull one out before bedtime and it helps get through the rest of the week.
One thing that seems to be working with my kid (just over 5) is giving her more responsibility and independence. We recently started having her collect the bedroom garbage. She helps empty the dishwasher and make dinner. She helps fold clothes. I told her I would stop nagging her to go potty (and bite my tongue when she starts dancing around). I let her wear whatever (weather appropriate) she wants (today it was long sleeve shirt & pants with a short sleeve shirt & shorts on top).
She is still a handful, but I think my treating her like a responsible child makes her want to be more responsible.
Good luck! |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12990
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 11:49 am: |
|
I feel you have to approach these problems from two directions. One is discipline and the other with feeding, so to speak.
The discipline side is meting out consequences swiftly, firmly, and surely, to give the message that a certain behavior is not acceptable.
The feeding side is finding out what needs are not being met (attention, whatever), and taking care of them. It could be a stressful situation at school that she needs to talk about.
The Faber and Mazlish books will help you do both.
The "Liberated Parents..." book starts out with explaining that we should not aim to make our kids be happy. Rather, the most important goals is to teach them to be compassionate and strong. Compassion is feeling others' feelings as if they are own, which will lead to understanding the consequences of our actions. Strength is being able to endure the unpleasant aspects of life.
|
Former Cowgirl
Citizen
Username: Formercowgirl
Post Number: 15
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 11:59 am: |
|
I recommend Raising the Spirited Child. I bought my copy on ebay and while I'm only 2/3 the way through, already I have so much insight into my spirited and active and opinionated 3 yo child. |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 2483
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 12:58 pm: |
|
Plus, from the sounds of it, you're a girl and your daughter's a girl and the rest of the family is boys! And you sound like you're the parent away from the house more frequently than your husband. I've not read lately much on mothers and daughters, and I only have one female child, but I can tell you that some things get intense between mom/daughter at various times and the parental gender seems to matter. My kid is the "spirited child" thing and now 12-1/2. We've had periods of intense identification where she worshipped me, and times of intense combat as she figures herself out as a person and as a female. Guess who's the backboard for much of that? It's wholly different for her with her dad, and always has been.
I've always been the primary worker, and my husband freelance and often at home. Somewhere around 6, as I recollect, the whole development of gender role thing started to kick in and we had some MASSIVE fights. I have not solution to offer, simply the idea that some issues may be different between you and her as opposed to you and the boys because you're both girls. |
breal
Citizen
Username: Breal
Post Number: 761
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 1:16 pm: |
|
To me, it's significant that things have ramped up to where she's not acting like herself over a couple of months.
Check what's going on at school again. Any bad breakdown with another child? Could she be having a sinking spell about some learning issue? |
WendyP
Citizen
Username: Meandtheboys
Post Number: 3272
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 1:35 pm: |
|
Something I'd like to add along the lines of positive reinforcement, which I tried with success with my oldest two when my oldest was in kindergarten and we were having issues. I adapted it from something someone suggested to me here.
I got each kid a bag of big pompoms in the color of thier choice and named them "Warm Fuzzies." Whenever the kids did something nice, well, quickly, thoughtful, they got a warm fuzzy. I would say "That was very nice the way you shared the candy in the goody bag you got at the birthday party with your brother, go get yourself a warm fuzzy." Or "Thank you for turning the T.V. off the first time I asked, I appreciate it, go get yourself a warm fuzzy." Or "Thanks so much for helping your brother reach that toy on the top shelf, you're a nice brother, go get yourself a warm fuzzy." And "Wow, I can't believe you ate all of your broccoli, without my having to ask, give me a big hug and then go get yourself two warm fuzzies."
I chose not to assign specific "warm fuzzy" values to any particular task, but I did give extras for particularly wonderful behavior, and they quickly understood what they needed to do to earn the warm fuzzies. Even strategized about ways to earn more.
They put the warm fuzzies in a small glass (any other container will do, but make sure they can fill the cup in a few days with a few warm fuzzies a day), and once the glass was filled they got a special treat. But the treat was never a toy or candy, rather a trip to the movies with Dad, breakfast at the Mapleleaf with mom or whatever you decide. Then we emptied the cup and started all over again.
In this way they were rewarded for doing "good" things, and not "punished" in a general sense by having to earn each privilege. If your daughter is the way you say she is, I wonder if you run the risk of making her more angry and rebellious by making her earn every day privileges? If she's allowed her normal every day privileges (and only loses them when her behavior is very bad) and her "good" behavior is rewarded in a very real, immediate, tangible way, she will see the benifits of good behavior and strive for more?
Again, just my 2 cents. |
IShep
Citizen
Username: Twinsmom
Post Number: 156
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 1:36 pm: |
|
I suspect that some of this may be due to not having made a real connection with any other kids yet. If she is anything like me...and I think she is, she needs deep, intimate relationships. I have always struggled, and this applies to me to this day, with supeficial relationships with friends.
Yes, she has some buddies at school, and yes we schedule playdates with them...but one big difference where we live is that besides the homes being further apart from one another, families here seem much more guarded and rigid than we are, and compared to families we knew in SO/MA. It's funny, I learned that some parents at the school assumed I was an artist...possibly because I dress a bit more on the hippie side, wear little to no make-up, etc. Plus, I'm from Mexico, my husband is a Jewish New Yorker and stay at home Dad...perhaps we're a bit outside the norm for this area and though we've made a few friends with our kids' friends parents, maybe they see us with a "what's up with that family" eye and that transfers to the kids at school. Then again, this may not have ANYTHING to do with this and I'm just struggling to have this make sense!
My daughter has come home saying things like...
"Ava at school says it's weird that Dad doesn't go to work. Daddy should go to work." (!!!!????)
and...(more background: my daughter loves to sing and is actually quite good at it):
"The kids on the bus told me to shut up, that I have no talent."
"Someone called me fat and ugly on the bus." (It doesn't matter that she is neither...this one made me cry...but clearly the intent here was just to hurt her. WHY?)
We've always figured that kids should learn to navigate through these situations and that this is all part of growing up. On the one hand we've started taking her to school more often than not (versus taking the big bus) per her request...but we struggle because I can't shelter her entirely and she needs to learn to handle these situations. Right?
I don't know how I'm going to figure out if anything is really going on at school. We've tried multiple ways of talking to her about it.
I'm going to order some of the books recommended here. I already had 2 of them...but more reading always helps me.
THANKS AGAIN!
|
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 2484
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 1:51 pm: |
|
YIKES! We had a mess of those problems when we moved here. Kid was in Spring of 4th grade, and she took a LOT of razzing, harrassing etc. And some stuff in the bullying zone that caused my husband to go down to the school a few times.
I will say that once my husband and I made some acquaintances, at least, with parents of kids at school it helped a lot. We were a little different than them, but not that much. It was mostly about being unknown -- and the fact that most kids had known each other for a few grades. The other thing that helped was stuff like joining Girl Scouts, ballet/sports and similar -- different turf. We're not church/synagogue goers but I suspect that kind of thing would help. I joined the PTA (odd for me) and helped at some functions. All of this helped the other parents know who I was, which did transfer to our kid. I'm not into greatly altering myself (!) but when her birthday came up, I hosted a party and did it in the expected way (even if it bugs you buy the matching Disney crap and serve sugary cupcakes even if you're inclined to the homemade and granola). All of that helped a lot, but there was definitely a place for school intervention when it went beyond the pale.
Good, good luck. |
Bettina
Citizen
Username: Bettina
Post Number: 128
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 6:52 pm: |
|
Ishep,
I think the book is called How to Set Limits with Your uh oh, I'm blanking. Something child. I'll look it up and get back to you.
Your child sounds very smart. I love that story about the guidance counselor. What a setup - draw something that makes you angry. It's hard to tell if she really made it up, like she said, or took it back when you asked her about it. The hard thing for me with my son is how big his feelings are. All kids have things they struggle with, so I thought, well with my son, it's how to manage his feelings. That's my job. Not to explore and inquire and empathize all over the place, that's more for a kid who has a hard time accessing/expressing his feelings. It's to help him manage them, keep them under some kind of control (age-appropriately, obviously). Sometimes also with kids that are really verbally sophisticated, I think it's easy to get pulled into discussions with them and even treating them like you can reason them into some deeper understanding that they're really not ready to have. I think it sounds like you are doing a terrific job with a kid who will be an incredible adult if you can all survive into her adulthood! Same for me, too.
I'll check that book. |
IShep
Citizen
Username: Twinsmom
Post Number: 159
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 1:19 pm: |
|
Thank you all. You've all been so helpful and supportive. Great collective advice.
We had a good day yesterday--my daughter is so conscious of the issues/her behavior. She told me before bed that she's "working on herself."
I'll post in a month or two about what I learn. |
sac
Supporter
Username: Sac
Post Number: 3231
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 8:14 pm: |
|
One of my children was very stubborn and difficult from about age 15 months when the terrible twos set in until sometime during 2nd grade. Mostly with me and her father and the babysitter, occasionally with her teachers. Her very wise nursery school teacher told me that "these children make incredible adults". My response was that I didn't know if I could survive that long. Since about age 8, she has mellowed considerably. Although we occasionally see flashes of the former behavior, she is usually a joy to have around, so we didn't have to wait so long after all.
However, puberty is in progress and middle school comes next fall, so we are waiting for the next shoe to drop.
 |
|
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page