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Elizabeth
Citizen
Username: Elizabethann
Post Number: 41
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 4:23 pm: | 
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Any thoughts... words of wisdom? We are serious about adopting a child and we want to be parents but we are already sad/scared about losing our time to "spoil" each other. I am looking for advice from HAPPY couples with children. |
Krista
Citizen
Username: Shortgrrrl
Post Number: 78
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 4:29 pm: |
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My husband and I are extremely happy. Yes, having a baby has changed our lives dramatically...loss of sleep; much, much less "us" time; and even financial stress (to work or not work, nanny or daycare, ect).
But even when we are completely wiped out, we often take the time to remark to eachother how wonderful it is to be parents, and how great it is to have our son in our lives...He is only 9 months old, and it gets better each day. I can't imagine being completely happy without him...and I think I can speak for my husband and say he feels the same way.
It is a huge adjustment...but so worth it.
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las
Citizen
Username: Las
Post Number: 1365
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 4:29 pm: |
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I am a single mom of three and I couldn't imagine life without my little ones. Each morning I wake up to their love and their snuggles and - hmm? oh, I thought you said cats. Well, I can't imagine a child being any harder than a cat. I'm sure you'll do fine.  |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7039
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 4:40 pm: |
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I have no personal experience, but my brother and his wife have been marries for 8.5 years and have had children for 7 of those years. They swear by "date night" and go out alone together every Thursday night, no matter what. Even if only to a cheap burger place to spend a couple hours together. Other times, they go to shows or concerts.
They haven't missed a Thursday night unless my brother has been away on business. |
Virtual It Girl
Citizen
Username: Shh
Post Number: 4190
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 4:41 pm: |
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Ok, so there's screaming in the background as I write this...
We didn't even consider NOT having children in our lives, and had our first just after our first anniversary (though we were young, I was 26, we were together for 9 years already.)
I love my kids and I (still) adore my husband after almost 20 years together. We are very lucky that my parents and siblings are relatively close, and my mom is almost always willing to take the kids overnight. (They are now almost 10, 8 & 4.)
That said, there are certainly times we look at each other and wonder how life may have been had we not had children, but they certainly have enhanced our lives.
If you do decide to adopt, your lives will totally change. You will not have the freedom you may now be accustomed to, but there's something so rewarding about seeing life through a child's eyes. You can be goofy and creative and you will learn so much. Also, your relationship may be tested with a new person to care for, but your bond with each other may end up being stronger. I think ours is!
Plus, if you do have family/extended family, they will certainly fall in love with the child too. Not only my parents, but my siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins, love spending time with my kids whenever they can. It has certainly made our family ties stronger. |
Pippi
Supporter
Username: Pippi
Post Number: 1972
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 5:00 pm: |
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elizabeth -
thanks for posting your concerns. I have the same concerns, not voiced. I look forward to reading more posts
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Soparents
Citizen
Username: Soparents
Post Number: 22
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 5:30 pm: |
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We went through 7 years of marriage NOT wanting kids as it would change our lives, or we didn't have time, or it would cost too much (feel free to insert other reasons here) In 2000 we had out first child and in 2002 our second. Yes, your priorities will change no matter how much you try to keep things the same. Yes, you will find youself shopping for a dress for you and coming out with stuff for the kids instead. Yes, you will find that some things you did with just the two of you can't happen at a drop of a hat anymore, but I will tell you that NONE OF THAT MATTERS, as one simple look from your child, one tear in their eye, or an unexpected hug from them to the singly most important person in their tiny lives, makes everything else pale into insignificance. Take that step, I assure you it's worth it. I hope this helps. |
MHCLyons
Citizen
Username: Hamandeggs
Post Number: 221
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 5:36 pm: |
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Time and money go out the window (or they did for us), but having kids is another wonderful way to know your spouse. Thru decisions you make, you learn more of his childhood and who he was (not to mention his deepest values -- those that often defy words). Thru your child, you can often see your spouse, his habits, gestures a little differently, as your child will imitate unconsciously. Thru the way he acts with the baby, you see his parents and choices he makes that aren't like his parents.
You also have the luxury of being childlike together, really playing, marveling at clouds and splashing in a wading pool. It brings back memories of your own past and may remind him of his. If you have more than one, you will learn more of your husband's sibling past -- and you will learn what parts of him are that middle child (or whatever) still hanging out inside the adult body.
Every one of my friends has moments of saying, "I never thought he'd be so..." whether liberal, strict, permissive, funny...and that's another way to know your spouse better too. I never thought I'd see my uptight, buttoned-down, shy, quiet husband get on all fours and pretend to be a bunny for a tea party (at the public pool), but that kind of thing happens often. It's another way of enjoying him.
"Soon by you," as we say in my family! |
Jenny
Citizen
Username: Jenjen
Post Number: 81
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 5:59 pm: |
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I think the most important thing in making this decision is to talk it out, as it seems you two are doing, and to come to as close as the same decision as possible before making it. It also helps to somehow document this decision so when somewhere down the line when one of you inevitiably says" whose idea was it to have kids," you have record that it WAS indeed both of you.
One of the mistakes we made before having children (we got pregnant before our 1 year anniversary) was not discussing important goals/wishes/childrearing views, etc. And had some hurdles to overcome once we had kids. (ie. Will you both work or will one stay home? will you allow tv? if so how much? candy? toys? etc. etc.)
As long as you know that YES you will lose a lot of ME time (unless you build it in to your lives intentionally), and as long as you know YES your lives WILL change, I think you are as prepared as one can possibly be.
I would never ever go back to not having children as my son is the light of my life. But I would have made better and more informed decisions before getting pregnant had I known then what I know now. (More time and trips with husband before getting pregnant, saved more money, owned big house, etc.) |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13176
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 6:47 pm: |
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Happy is the wrong question. The challenges are tremendous, beyond anyone's imagination. The rewards are somewhat higher than the challenges. The bliss ends some time after they're in school. There are moments of soaring pride, but there's a heck of a lot of humdrum time.
I think I did the right thing by becoming a parent, but I'd like to warn you about how your life will change dramatically and permanently. Unfortunately, it's not possible to give an adequate warning. There's no imagining it. If you're close to having someone with kids, such as siblings, or if you have siblings who are much younger, you may have an inkling. I am the younger child, and I'm the first in my age group in my extended family to have kids, and I'm the first in my peer group to have kids, and I was not prepared. But I muddle along.
My kids are 17 and 14 now. Two girls. My mantra is "never a dull moment." The stuff that goes on is not fit for printing here. But again, the rewards are even bigger than the challenges.
I'm divorced, too, which added to the challenges in a big way. It takes more energy and heartache to have kids when you're divorced, and it hurts the finances, too. I'm lucky in that I'm now remarried, and the kids live with me and my new wife, and she's a good stepmother.
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Lizziecat
Citizen
Username: Lizziecat
Post Number: 1117
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 11:56 pm: |
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If you are sad/scared about losing time to spoil each other, perhaps you should postpone adopting a child. Children are bottomless pits of neediness, as well as endless sources of delight. Emergencies are frequent, plans are upset, mess and chaos and disorder are the rule. Now one should have a child--much less adopt one--if they are unwilling or unready to stop being "spoiled." |
CFA
Citizen
Username: Cfa
Post Number: 1611
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 3:54 am: |
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I agree with Lizzie. If you have to ask, you shouldn't do it. |
red
Citizen
Username: Redy67
Post Number: 5179
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 7:28 am: |
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My husband and I were the same as soparents. We got married with the understanding we would not have children. After five years of marriage I changed my mind. Thankfully hubby was just as excited as I was to start a family.
It is the most wonderful and the most difficult job. There are days when I just want to be by myself, no kiddies, just relax. But of course little red is always there saying "mommy, come play with me. Mommy, I need a snack" So I put that off until.....
I wouldn't change it for the world. I can't imagine my life without these two wonderful little ones. It brought my husband and I closer together than I ever imagined. He is an amazing father and husband. I would have never seen that part of him without children.
Make sure you are ready. If not, it can really put a strain on you and your marriage. When you are ready, there is NOTHING like it!!  |
juju's petals
Citizen
Username: Jujus_petals
Post Number: 238
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 9:23 am: |
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I'm a toe in the water kind of gal but there is no way to test drive parenthood. You just dive right and have faith that you'll float. The first stages of parenting often feel like getting thrown in the deep end of the pool but with enough thrashing around, you'll get the hang of it. Of course, you have to give up any nagging perfectionism. Just do your best, all the time, and it will be enough.
Before we had children I'd ask my mom the "when's the best time" question and she'd always say that there's never a good time. By that she meant, you'll never have ENOUGH money. The RIGHT place in your relationship or career. You just go with it. That was some of the best advice I received.
Last night while my husband was at school, after wrangling and bribing my way through an afterwork doctor visit with two kiddos and subsequent trip to CVS to get medicine that will treat the rash dujour so one child can get permission to go back to school, I enjoyed a brief moment of calm while my children really enjoyed pre-Easter, pre-Dinner, creme eggs in the backseat of the car on the way home. A disaster and a triumph all in the same moment. That's what it's like to me. Call me happy. |
Elizabeth
Citizen
Username: Elizabethann
Post Number: 45
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 9:24 am: |
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hamandeggs and soparents have touched me with their feedback. i can also take the harsh criticism but try to lean towards hope and encouragement rather than criticism. asking questions about fears means (for me) we are willing to walk through them not around them. Regardless, all of the posts are invaluable and i am reading and "listening", so thank you and keep the stories coming.  |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13187
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 9:41 am: |
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Also, we've all forgotten to mention how having kids tests and stresses the marriage, big time.
Sorry you feel criticized, but I don't see anyone criticizing you. I think warnings are fair when you ask this type of question. Warnings and advice are not criticism.
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WendyP
Citizen
Username: Meandtheboys
Post Number: 3396
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 9:46 am: |
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My 2 cents:
If you are in a position where you have time to wait, and enjoy each other and your life together for a while longer, I would do that. Put a little money in the bank, sleep in on the weekends, travel. If, like VIG, you've been together and had a chance to enjoy each other and your life together already, than perhaps you are in a better position to introduce the whole new life, new responsibility, new family aspect of things.
I was married when I was 36 and we had our first not long after our first anniversary. My husband and I were only together a few years before we were married. Had I been younger and had the luxery of doing so, I might have waited another couple of years before diving in.
But it's really all good. I had lots of opportunity to "get my ya-ya's out," as they say, in the years when I was single. I never even wanted children until I hit about 30 anyway. For me, having the kids later was the right thing, even though it wasn't as if I had much choice in the matter. I honestly don't think I would have been up to the task any earlier than this.
You and your husband will probably lose yourselves in the first few years (we've had three, and it's like you start fresh every time), but as the kids get older you settle in to a nice kind of rhythm and your relationship grows and changes in accordance with your new lives.
The decision is a very personal one and the answer is different for everyone. I think when the time is right (to start and stop), you will know it. And I agree that you will never be prepared for the ways in which your life will change. IMHO, you can "discuss" every aspect of it until you're blue in the face (and well you should), but I'm certain even your best laid plans for how you will handle every eventuality will be shot to hell once you're in the day to day reality of bringing home baby! |
Eats Shoots & Leaves
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 3147
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 9:46 am: |
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Like Tom, I am a divorced parent-- three wonderful kids (not cats, like Las--my ex got the cat, rabbits, birds, ferrets, guinea pig, and gerbils; I kept the dog, and get the kids every other weekend).
My kids are all adopted, by the way.
I agree with everything everyone is saying--having kids is the most challenging, demanding, exhilarating, and rewarding experience you can ever have--even more than cats and dogs (and that is saying a lot). I would not trade the role of parent for all the money in the world. This morning on the train my youngest called just to say hello and that he loves me--I am still glowing (but I am also wondering what bad thing he did that I will hear about tonight from his mom).
It will put a strain on your marriage in many ways, as it will also add to it in many ways. Certainly your dynamic will change massively. If your relationship is supple and strong, you will be fine. In my marriage, we did not do a good job of making time for each other, and the stress of parenting exacerbated pre-existing fault lines. Looking back, I am not sure if we could have survived as a couple even without kids; having kids may have sped up the inevitable.
That said, I would not counsel against having kids because you fear it may stress your marriage beyond repair. Simply by your asking the question shows you have great awareness already, and so you will be prepared to adjust and make time for each other. But even if your marriage unfortunately ends in divorce, there will be huge heartache all around, but you will still have the kids, and that is a wonderful miracle indeed.
Yes, divorce is hard on kids (and adults) and should be avoided if at all possible. But it happens, and you cannot predict how your marriage will react to having kids. At the end of the day, I still have the love and joy and challenges of being a parent--and my ex and I actually relate very well together as parents; better than we did when we were married. We are a family still, but in a different format.
One more thing--as Tom says, before you have kids you simply cannot imagine what it will be like, the good and the bad. If you keep waiting for the right time, there may never be a right time. Sometimes you just have to close your eyes and plunge into the pool.
Best of luck whichever way you go.
Mark
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greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7045
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 10:07 am: |
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A different perspective: I never thought that I wanted kids and my partner felt the same. In my late 30s, I started to think about it, before (IMO) it would be too late. I knew that, no matter what, I did not want to start with kids after 40. Just my choice, nothing against those who decide otherwise. I just can't see being 60 and worrying about college, etc.
I think that it's a good thing that you are scared, hesitant and trying to sort it out. People who just have kids because "that's what you do" sometimes end up wondering, years down the road, where their life went. I had this very argument with a good friend a few years ago. She married, had 3 kids & decided to pursue her dream of med school when the youngest was 12 and the oldest was starting college. She said to me, during a time of high frustration, "it's my turn now; I've raised them". I replied "No, you made the decision and they are still at home. You are not done yet".
I feel very strongly that people should truly choose to have kids and be willing to make them the number 1 priority for many, many years. Which, I think is different, from dreading the stress, hard work, etc. that comes with the territory.
I don't think anyone is ever 100% sure; I can't say that I was 100% when I made my decision not to have kids. But I was more than 70% sure that I did not want to give up my freedom and lifestyle. In my case, it would have been unfair to have a child. I do not regret my decision. |
Handygirl
Citizen
Username: Handygirl
Post Number: 633
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 11:18 am: |
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I always knew that I wanted to have kids (as did my husband), but when we actually made the decision to get pregnant I was definitely not 100% sure that I was ready then. Because I was more ready than not ready we went for it. Two fabulous kids later we are nuts about our kids and about eachother. It is so much work (two is harder than one) but so worth it. My advice is to be very open with your partner. Talk about everything relating to childrearing before you take the plunge. Agree on parenting styles (to the extent that you can pre-kid) - i.e. timeouts? TVs in bedrooms? childcare? religion? financial priorities? goals for saving for college? trading alone time? etc. Being on the same page initially goes A LONG way when you have your kid(s).
Once you have kid(s), continue to communicate about everything. And, most importantly, be as objective you can about your own child. Nobody wants to raise a jerk, and I know parents whose kids are jerks and, even though these kids make their parents lives more difficult because of the jerkiness, they just don't see it. And, most importantly, they do nothing to curtail the negative behavior. I'm a big proponent in nipping negative behavior in the bud. But to do so, you have to be able to recognize it. If my friends had recognized the negative behavior in their kids and nipped it in the bud, they would probably be happier now than they currently are (and playdates would certainly be more pleasant). We are huge proponents of cause and effect. You have to be consistent with discipline and parenting techniques, even though it is MUCH EASIER to give in than it is to be firm.
Sorry for the unsolicited parenting advice. My point is that having kids has made my husband and I so happy and we are just as strong, if not stronger as a couple because we share this amazingly rewarding role as parents. There are pitfalls though (as highlighted in the unsolicited advice above), but if you parent with your head, and not just with your heart, you will do well to build a happy and healthy family that will nurture you throughout your life and into your senior years.
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Bettina
Citizen
Username: Bettina
Post Number: 134
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 4:02 pm: |
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I respectfully disagree with the idea that if you're scared about losing time you should wait to have children. Who isn't scared? And you should be scared! It's very very challenging. But I do not think that kids need you to dedicate every moment of your waking life to them. They need their own space too. I look around at parents today and at myself, and I sometimes see a bunch of crazed lunatics trying to create this perfect, flawless environment where you're attuned to their every need and wish! After you have children, you and your husband should continue to spoil eachother in whatever ways you can find and take care of your relationship and of yourselves. The children will benefit as much from this as from anything else you can provide for them. |
red
Citizen
Username: Redy67
Post Number: 5182
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 6:19 pm: |
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Tom, I have to disagree with you. While it does put a stress on a marriage in some ways, it has put my husband and I closer together than ever. I think every couple is different. |
argon_smythe
Citizen
Username: Argon_smythe
Post Number: 798
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 9:31 pm: |
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There are many paths which lead to happiness. There are other paths, too, and some of them lead to even better places.
If you found joy and truth in what I wrote above, you probably ought to wait it out a little longer. If you thought it was a total crock, you're probably ready.
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davidbuckley
Citizen
Username: Davidbuckley
Post Number: 501
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 10:53 pm: |
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I love my wife enormously. I love my 2 kids enormously. I believe that they feel the same way about me and about each other. This adds up to some serious percentage of bliss.
All that said, having kids is the hardest thing you can do if you're committed to doing your best at it. Even if you're not, it's still hard. (Clare, 4 next Thurs., yells out "Daaaad, Daaad, can you give me the animal books?", as if on cue, and it's only 10:25. Of course she's only been in bed an hour and that's my at least semi-bad but, like I said, it ain't easy.)
When you look at them and sniff them and hear them laugh and hear them say new words and see them love something and, and, and, and, it's the most unalloyed joy possible.
I, it must be said, am a very selfish person in many ways and I am not always as loving and giving and forgiving and sweet to those I love most in the world as I should be, would like to be. I however have been able to be a pretty good father and a pretty good husband and that makes me happy. I will try to be better, however, at both.
Elizabeth, my instinct from reading your words is that you are wise to explore and talk and solicit vibes/advice here and elsewhere and that you'll probably do the right thing for you and for your kids or not.
Yes, the difficulty can be numbing but the joy is unsurpassed with any luck and I hope you taste it. Remember to give alone time to spouse in the face of all the challenges to that and talk, talk, talk. We are right now trying to do more of both of those things.
I do believe that if either potential parent is strongly not in favor, DON'T BUCK THAT. If either or certainly both are not fundamentally excited, exhilarated at the thought of children wait and if it doesn't change don't.
All good wishes to you and may you be well, all, parents and kids.
David |
Eric
Citizen
Username: Ericactive
Post Number: 90
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 7:39 am: |
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A word of WARNING: YOU WILL LOVE YOUR CHILD MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE ON EARTH!!! You will not believe the love you feel for your child. It's like no other. You will jump in front of a speeding car to protect your child without thinking about it.
Travel: Though most people prefer not to, you CAN travel with children. Remember, no matter where you go there will be children already there. Kids will not put a damper on your travel plans unless you let them. Obviously it's more difficult but it's not impossible. You can get a babysitter if you want a quiet night out alone. My parents drove me and my brother all over Europe in a VW bug. I was 2 1/2, he was 4. It was the 60's. Today's conveniences were nowhere to be found. I was in cloth diapers!
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Camnol
Citizen
Username: Camnol
Post Number: 288
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 8:57 am: |
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"When you look at them and sniff them and hear them laugh and hear them say new words and see them love something and, and, and, and, it's the most unalloyed joy possible."
Well, my oldest boy will be 15 next week. I highly recommend NOT sniffing him--especially at the end of the day! |
doulamomma
Citizen
Username: Doulamomma
Post Number: 1284
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 9:31 am: |
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As others have said, I think it's wonderful to take a step back & really consider if you want to change your life. That said, most big decisions, for me, come with a certain amount of "leap of faith" after consideration is done...
Having kids is a huge, world-rocking thing...but almost completely, for me, in a good way. Some things we took for granted are harder to come by or take much work now, but if they are really important to us, we have still found a way to do them. We take turns sleeping late occasionally; we go out on dates a lot; we work hard to get everyone in bed early; we have breakfast meetings at the diner to talk family stuff so we don't spend dates on that. We travel, with kids & without (thanks to family help & a trusted sitter). And man do we fight...but that was true before we had kids too.
I think it's also important to remember that it takes about 1.5 years to fully integrate a new member or configuration of a family. Most folks I know, even if they had been together for a long time, had some struggles during their first year of marriage or commitment to be together...most images we see of newlyweds or new parents don't hint that it will take quite a while to get to feeling "normal", whatever that is. Having kids is not all bliss & it's not all work...which is true of most good relatinships, IMO
Not sure if anyone else said this, but I think seeing your partner as a parent gives a whole new thing to love about them - you see how great they are through the eyes of your children.
Good luck, whatever you decide. |
Buzzsaw
Citizen
Username: Buzzsaw
Post Number: 4234
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 10:32 am: |
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When a child that you love gives you a hug or tells you that they love you, there is no way to explain that amazing feeling. It is like no other.
Being a parent is not easy at all. But I wouldn't trade this experience for anything.
My wife and I are happy. We do reflect on the quiet dinners we used to have from time to time.
I really miss the sleep.
Good Luck. Follow your heart.
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Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 2537
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 10:53 am: |
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For me, having a kid was a function of my readiness (which didn't happen till mid-30's) and finding the right partner, which didn't happen till I a little later.
Had two husbands and number of long relationships prior; in each case, even when the relationship was good, I couldn't see the guy as the kind of father I wanted for a kid. And I'd watched a lot of friends go through divorce-with-kids, kids-too-early-before-adults-ready etc. I was really conservative about it, in short. But, when things came together they came together fast (married at 38, child at 39) and 15 years from our first official date, we're quite happy. Just my story. |
Leny
Citizen
Username: Leny
Post Number: 41
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 12:30 pm: |
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everyone's writing a book, but i think it can be synthesized into one simple concept that a friend imparted on me a few years ago: there is never a perfect time to have kids; if you're always waiting for the right time (as another posted has suggested), than you will never have children, if you want them, and you are with the 'right' person, get on with it ... |
ess
Citizen
Username: Ess
Post Number: 1494
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 1:44 pm: |
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Despite the fact that I am a little put off by the title of this thread, I will comment anyway.
* As has been said, there is no "right" time to have children.
* Children do not necessarily spoil a relationship, nor do they save one.
* Parents don't have to be official couples in order to be HAPPY that they have had children. Different things happen to people along the way, and people sometimes uncouple. This is in no way reflective of the fact that children are a part of the family.
Just some thoughts.
Incidentally, there are plenty of couples who are not HAPPY with each other, and maybe never were, but are head over heels over their children. Every situation is different.
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greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7053
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 5:00 pm: |
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Ess- you make a good point. My parents were babies when they married & had me a year later. I know that my mom always wanted lots of kids, but I also think that they kept having them, hoping it would strengthen the relationship. Fortunately, they only got to 4 before they realized that they were not a good fit.
I can see how havinig kids could put strains on a relationship that is not in good shape.
But, that's another thread. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13220
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 5:44 pm: |
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Red, that is the type of disagreement I like to encounter! I'm glad to know that my point is not true for all couples.
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Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 1451
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 9:30 pm: |
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I don't have kids, but I am working on it. I procrastinated having kids because I wanted to have fun forever. And I did. At a certain point it was clear that my relationship was rock solid, and my fears of divorce were NOT a good reason to not have kids. Also we were getting older and going out less and it felt like the right time and timing was starting to become an issue. At that point when I finally started to think about kids, I think this question formed in my head. Will my life be enriched by having kids and will I miss NOT having kids? I think it's corny to say this but I wanted to experience the full cyle of what makes up life -- all the stages. Child rearing is a VERY LARGE part of what makes up being human, and I definitely would regret not having experienced something that important to human life. Does that come at a price? Sure. But if your relationship is strong to begin with I think and hope we will be alright having kids. I guess at a certain point you are willing to give up your selfishness and be selfless enough to want to experience this thing that everyone says is so wonderful. |
doulamomma
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Username: Doulamomma
Post Number: 1285
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 9:48 pm: |
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Oh boy Alley - you might get some feedback on that last sentence...I'm sure there are plenty of people who can tell you that there are many selfish folks having kids & do it not because they are selfless at all...especially those having biological kids instead of making a home for people already here in need. But I agree that, for me, I would have felt that I was missing out on an experience I very much wanted (and frankly never questioned - just knew that I would have kids)
It's a choice - and while it limits freedom, it's not an end to fun. I think it's a bit like the choice to be in a relationship with one person instead of keeping options open...it's a choice that's right for most at some point, but not for everyone. |
wendy
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Username: Wendy
Post Number: 2166
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 10:08 pm: |
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doula, as always, a wise post. Good luck Alley. |
The Libertarian
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Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1792
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 10:11 pm: |
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I guess at a certain point you are willing to give up your selfishness and be selfless enough to want to experience this thing that everyone says is so wonderful.
some would argue that it is a very selfish thing to do. with so many kids in this world without parents, to leave them parentless and insist on having your own could be construed as one of the most selfish things you can do. |
Tom Reingold
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Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13222
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 10:54 pm: |
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As radical as that sounds, I agree with it. Conceiving a child is selfish. Raising it is selfless.
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Pippi
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Username: Pippi
Post Number: 1977
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 1:20 am: |
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Alley's last sentence didn't bother me as much as this one did:
"Child rearing is a VERY LARGE part of what makes up being human"
Does that make people who opt to not raise children less a part of the human experience?
what an offensive thing to say.
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Jenny
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Username: Jenjen
Post Number: 82
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 7:31 am: |
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I interpreted what Alley was saying as that conceiving and raising children is innate to humans (and I think gorillas?) Although I'd argue that the ability to raise children WELL is not innate to all humans .
I don't think you should be too quick to be offended Pippi...I don't think Alley was generalizing and implying that people who choose not to raise children have "less" of a human experience. (Alley correct me if I'm wrong), but I think he was referring to his own human experience.
I do take a tiny itsy bit offense to the statement that "conceiving a child is selfish" when there are so many children without parents. I applaud people who choose to adopt despite being fertile. But I don't think that makes the rest of us selfish. Especially considering the amount of time, energy, and love I put into raising my biologically conceived kids. I can't REMEMBER the last selfish thing I did.
Oh, right, I did wash my hair this morning. Does that count?
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wendy
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Username: Wendy
Post Number: 2173
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 7:37 am: |
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It sure does count you selfish biological mom. I also interpreted Alley's post as Jenny described. Had it not been intended that way it would have been quite offensive and Pippi would have been right on in stating as such. I also agree with Jenny in her disagreement about "conceiving a child is selfish." |
Carla
Citizen
Username: Elbowroom
Post Number: 67
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 7:58 am: |
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I'm sure alleygater meant to offend every human being on the planet that will not procreate.
People love to read into things what they want to and not what the writer really meant.
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red
Citizen
Username: Redy67
Post Number: 5186
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 8:00 am: |
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Tom--Thanks
I think you also must keep your sense of "self" after having children. It took me a short time to realize this. (thank goodness) But it is VERY important to you, your relationship, and your family.
My hubby and I try to have a date night, at least once a month if not more. Time to ourselves!!!
We each do a girls night out, or boys night out once a month (sometimes more, sometimes less). This is great for the both of you, to get time by yourself.
We also do a vacation just the two of us (usually just a long weekend) and each do a short girls and boys weekend.
I think it is very important to make sure you keep the romance alive between the two of you to keep the relationship going. You also don't want to lose yourself as being only a "mommy and a wife". (please don't flame me for this!) I love being a mommy and a wife; but I also love time to be just me.
We do many vacations together as a family. Taking it all in. They aren't the same, you have to find different activities to do. But it is amazing watching children explore new things. The first time they feel sand between their toes, the first time they go to an amusement park, the first time they see the "magic of Santa" etc..... |
ess
Citizen
Username: Ess
Post Number: 1503
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 9:47 am: |
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Red, I sigh wistfully in your general direction. What you have posted in this thread is lovely, it really is. It's stories like yours that justify my being a hopeless romantic (who also wants to be a great parent). Sigh. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7059
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 9:58 am: |
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Carla- I must congradulate you on your uncanny ability to be completely judgemental and tunnel-visioned against people who have a different perspective. And the almost-clever, quasi-subtle delivery! Consistent in every thread, you are a true artiste.
Millions of high school students over the ages have studied great literature (Shakespeare, Sartre) and debated the meaning and intent. Scholars spend years writing doctoral theses on the meaning of a particular paragraph. Oh, that they should just have come to you first, for the absolute and final word on intent and meaning. We'd save millions of educational dollars in an already-stretched system.
I must humble myself to say that I read Alley's words as did Pippi; I had thought that it was not intended, but indeed a bit insulting to assign one's own values to the choices of others. Especially since I stated that I made a conscious choice. Interesting to read that people w/out children and people w/ children see it differently.
I apologize for learning something new from the different perspectives rather than flogging myself for being overly sensitive.
Ugh. |
Pippi
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Username: Pippi
Post Number: 1978
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 10:04 am: |
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greenetree -
Thanks for writing a far more eloquent reply to Carla than I ever could.
cheers, sister! |
ess
Citizen
Username: Ess
Post Number: 1505
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 10:13 am: |
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Greenetree - well-said, on every level.
I, too, read Alley's statement as Pippi did.
Further, I disagree with the notion that conceiving and giving birth to a child (that one will raise oneself) is selfish. It most certainly is not. It certainly is selfless to adopt a child, but that does not in any way tarnish the choice to bear a child. |
doulamomma
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Username: Doulamomma
Post Number: 1287
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 12:53 pm: |
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ess, I hope what I wrote isn't being received as saying that having biological children is selfish - I don't think that's true at all (otherwise I'm pretty darn selfish giving birth to 3 kids) - I just don't think bearing children is a selfless act in and of itself...though being a good parent certainly requires selflessness with regularity...I agree with Red that being a good parent (or being a good partner, for that matter) does not require a loss of self; rather, holding on to one's self or the new self that emerges is, IMO, a good thing to model for our kids.
I also took Ally's words the way Pippi did at first and then assumed that probably wasn't the intent, but was more an issue of personal actualization...that's what I hope, anyway |
Alleygater
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Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 1453
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 12:40 am: |
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OK, I'm sorry I was gone so long, so I could have cleared up this mess. Thank you Carla for sticking up for me on this one, and sorry that you took the brunt of everyone's attack on this one. And thanks to whomever else gave me the benefit of the doubt.
Greenetree, et al: I'm sorry I NEVER EVER EVER meant to imply that NOT having kids was a problem. I guess I could see how my words could be construed as rude considering the original poster mentioned adopting. I should have never used the word conceived in this context. But I will say that you guys were looking for something that wasn't even remotely in the rest of my post. I was trying to explain to Elizabeth that I was in many ways exactly in her shoes, and to explain why I made the decision I made to try to have kids (be that conception OR adoption). TS and I talk about adoption as a very real possibility for us still on a fairly regular basis. I honestly have no negative opinions about adoption vs. conception. I would be cool with either.
My point really was that I want to be involved in the circle of life. I think that raising kids and having them in your lives is crucial to me experiencing what life is about (I'm sorry if the word human was somehow insulting). I never meant that if you didn't have kids or that you adopt kids that you wouldn't be as human as the rest of us. That is a personal choice for people to decide for themselves and for them to decide if they think they would be missing out on something. I don't have kids yet, so who am I to say whether you will or won't. It's as much a mystery for me as it is for anyone without children. I was honestly try to be helpful and didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings.
As for this issue of selfish vs. selfless, I didn't expect my words to be scrutinized like this. No one else's were. I guess I just meant (and I thought in the context of the rest of my post it was clear...I guess I was wrong.) that FOR ME, the desire to have children was finally strong enough that I was ready to stop making all my decisions about me (the going out and having fun stuff I mentioned earlier) and finally start thinking about taking care of someone else. Everyone says your life changes drastically after you have a child to take care of...and as a single person who is used to only having to consider decisions for myself that seems like a huge, big and scary change. But now I think I am finally ready to stop making my life only about me. I want to start thinking about US. Right now I'm wondering gosh, the more I go on and explain myself the more fuel I give them to roast me. I hope I didn't piss anyone else off trying to explain myself, I honestly didn't mean to. I have been following this thread from the beginning and generally was keeping out of it, because what did I have to offer to it -- not being a parent myself yet. I only chimed in, because I thought I might have something helpful to contribute since I recently asked myself the same questions as the poster. I never imagined that my words would be misunderstood so completely or interpretted to be so hurtful when that wasn't even remotely my intention.
If you still have questions I would suggest just asking me what I meant. I'll be happy to clarify anything you feel I might not have covered. But please stop looking for something for things that aren't meant to be there. |
greenetree
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Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7066
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 9:34 am: |
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Alley - I'm typing r e a l l y s l o w l y this time.
Your "critics" (me included) said that we didn't think that you intended your post to be insulting. But, most people make mistakes at one time or another. Not so much in what they write, but in inadvertently wording something so that it may be insulting to others. Now, folks who are called on it can either take it as a learning experience, be adults and apologize for the unintended rudeness. Or, they can be blustery and tell others to get a life.
Carla (whom I usually ignore) has an extreme case of tunnel vision on most topics and, as a rule, is not worth giving a second thought to. However, her unprovoked reply was particularly nasty.
Ironically, I had given you the benefit of the doubt in your first post about your intent. But your defensiveness and clear denial of any responsibility for perhaps phrasing something badly in the last statement of your last post pretty much wipes out the last 4 paragraphs. That was a lot of wasted typing.
Eliz - I'm sorry that this got derailed (yes, I know I am a culprit). I hope that you've gotten the types of perspectives that you were looking for. |
CLK
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Username: Clkelley
Post Number: 2072
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 9:39 am: |
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Hey, alley, I read your original post in the spirit in which I think it was intended. Good luck with your personal journey towards parenthood, wherever that journey takes you.
I have a few friends who teach writing. They have always told me that "peer review" is one of the best ways to improve writing, because the writer's fellow students will over- and mis-interpret any sentence that is not well thought-out. Their criticism helps the writer do better next time.
It is great to see this dynamic in operation here.
I think Alleygater has a point in that it does require a great deal of selflessness to raise a child well, and all potential parents would do well to consider that necessity prior to deciding to raise a child. Alley's admission of his own struggle with this is very brave.
But it does not in the slightest imply that those who choose otherwise are selfish! Far from it - many choose to be child-free for very selfless reasons, or for reasons that have nothing to do with selfishness / selflessness. |
Wendyn
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Username: Wendyn
Post Number: 2850
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 9:47 am: |
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So the question was what is the effect of the kids on the marriage. I read somewhere once that a poll showed that couples were happiest in the first 5 and last 5 years of their marriage. The middle 25 (when they were raising kids) was not quite as fun.
Try answering these questions:
- Take the # of things you and your partner have to fight and argue about. Multiply it by 20.
- Take the # of hours a week you have time for yourself. Multiply it by 0. Ok, maybe .000001.
- Take your money and multiply it by the same factor as #2.
- Take your living space and multiply it by .25.
Kids are great, but they are hard on a marriage. Not only do you not have as much time for each other, you don't have as much time for yourself.
- Talk about child-rearing. Will one parent stay home? If not, how will you work child care? What if one of you changes your mind and wants to work or stay home?
- Talk about who will be the primary caretaker, because even if you both work the kids will look to one or the other for their needs when they are young. And that will hurt both parents, one for not being able to get a break, and the other for not feeling needed or wanted.
- Talk about who does what around the house. I know several stay at home parents who didn't talk about this and it caused problems when the working spouse assumed that wasn't their job anymore, and the SAH didn't think they should assume every household chore.
- Talk about money. Set a budget for necessities outside of what you already spend. Is your car big enough? Is your living space big enough?
- Talk about family. Is it ok for his parents to watch the kids if they smoke? Is it ok for your brother the slacker to watch the kids? Which leads me to:
- Talk about babysitters. Family members? Friends? New people?
- Talk about pets. How will you deal with your pet and the new child? What if the kid is allergic?
Even with all of these things talked to death, stuff changes. Make sure you try to have open communication. Try to focus on the big stuff and not if hubby gave the lolly at bedtime. Let your spouse be his own parent, because he is not you. But don't hesitate to say something if you think something he is doing is damaging to the kid.
All this being said I love being a mom, even if I'm not the best one in the world. And I love seeing my kids' faces light up with Daddy gets home, even if 5 min later they tell him to go away. And I love that my husband called me this morning to make sure I got the kids to daycare ok, because that is normally his job. Of course he really called to tell me he got a new cell phone, but that's ok too.
We are trying our best because we love each other and our kids. I think in the end that is all you can do, and hopefully things will work out.
Good luck with whatever you decide! |
Camnol
Citizen
Username: Camnol
Post Number: 292
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 10:04 am: |
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Having kids is wonderful. Having kids is hard. When they are young, the days go by very slowly, but the years pass very quickly.
I think the fact that you are already thinking about each other means that you will find ways to keep that "spoil" time. It's very possible to have time for each other; it's just very easy to forget how important that is. And if life rears its head and you find yourself with a beautiful child that has issues, it can be even harder to remember to hold onto that "spoil time."
Whenever I start thinking about this stuff, I think of the ending lyrics to Mad About You (loved that show).
"Where we go,
who knows what happens after here,
Let's take each other's hands,
As we jump into the final frontier,"
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Handygirl
Citizen
Username: Handygirl
Post Number: 641
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 10:06 am: |
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What a wonderful and insightful post Wendyn.
It's funny, my parents had big problems because, somewhere down the line, they stopped communicating. I told myself that I wouldn't fall into that trap and I insist on talking about every issue and every feeling - which sometimes drives my husband crazy (although he realizes that, overall, it is a good strategy). Now I see that my 3 year old is doing it too. When I yell at her or force her to do something that she doesn't want to do, she'll say "mommy! you are making me sad" - which I think is great.
So, my point is that the suggestions in many of the above posts (such as making sure that you and your spouse communicate) will not only help keep your marrage strong, but your kids will hopefully learn and practice these social/relationship skills as well. |
Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 1462
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 10:36 am: |
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Greeny: Let's please stop this, OR please start another thread out of respect for Elizabeth. I am saddened that my last line of my post could WHOLLY undermine everything else I sad earlier. But also saddened due to the fact that you refused to honor the request that was in that line. I also find it sad that your saying it would have been better had I not even bothered to clarify myself (if only I could get my time back). I don't remember being blustery (unless that is your way of calling me long-winded -- for that I am guilty as charged) or telling other people to get a life (not even remotely sure where you got that from). Once again, I feel that you are looking to cause a confrontation. As for me being defensive. Don't I have a right in this context? There was an all out dissection of my original post and assumptions were made about individual words I used in my post by MANY people that weren't even meant by me. As for there being a clear denial, I feel that is actually an all out lie on your part. I'm sorry but I did apologize for a few things I said, and I tried to clarify the other things that I thought were misunderstood. I also asked for people to ask me any questions that they felt needed further clarification. I didn't receive that from you, which implies to me that you're muck raking, trying to stir up the pot and find more things to be upset at me for. So I don't get the sense that you really care about my opinion on this matter. You feel I've offended you and others and you would prefer to demonize me rather than understand where I'm coming from. I'm cool with that -- just do it in another post after this. |
Twokitties
Citizen
Username: Twokitties
Post Number: 409
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 4:31 pm: |
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Someone posted that "if you have to ask, you aren't ready" (I paraphrase).
I completely disagree.
This is something that will change your life completely. Of course you have to---and SHOULD--ask lots of questions. But you will never know until you do it, and then it will be the most amazing thing in the world. |
Former Cowgirl
Citizen
Username: Formercowgirl
Post Number: 30
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 7:40 am: |
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Twokitties: So true. You are never ever ready. I'm still not ready 3 years later... LOL!
But talking about things to death DOES at least create so sort of boilerplate for what your goals are as parents and as a family with kids
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sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 2352
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 12:27 pm: |
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I also disagree with the "if you have to ask, you aren't ready" mentality. However, I think that if you are seriously concerned about "crimping" your style then you shouldn't be thinking of having children. Its alright to be selfish as long as you don't have children. It goes without saying that children need lots of attention, love, everything and there are many times when you won't be able to do what YOU want. Its tough to be spontaneous when you have them. There are lots of challenges and you won't know everything but you will be surprised at how much you do know. How much of it is instinctual. I can honestly remember only one time in seven plus years that I felt overwhelmed and that time quickly passed. Its frustrating, sometimes maddening but I wouldn't trade it for anything else in the world. As someone above mentioned every time they tell you they love you without prompting will re affirm that everything that you are doing is worth while.
I always tell me son that the two best parts of my day are the 15 minutes I spend walking him to school and the five minutes or so before I pick him up. The former because its just he and I and we spend the time talking about everything or nothing at all. The latter because the anticipation of seeing him and hearing about his day swarms over me and I can't wait to hear about it whether its good or bad.
My marriage could be better, we could communicate better, we could share responsibilities better, we could be better parents. We don't strive for perfection but we are happy. We both work a lot (like most people around here) and wish we could spend more time with our son but we've found a routine that works 99% of the time and I think that's the best you could hope for.
Best of luck in whatever you choose. |
Elizabeth
Citizen
Username: Elizabethann
Post Number: 47
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 1:47 pm: |
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Hey ya'll! Thanks for bringing thread back to the question at hand. I am feeling very comforted by all the input - the good and the bad and the in between.
As I may have already said, my husband and I start attending the fost to adopt classes in May. We will take everything "one day at a time", communicate to the best of our ability along the way, practice patience with one another and see how this all unfolds. We will take in as much information/commentary that we can access and whether we adopt sooner or later or not at all I feel very enlightened and excited about continuing on life's journey.
Keep on keeping on if you so desire.... Thank you! Elizabeth |
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