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MichaelaM
Citizen
Username: Mayquene
Post Number: 129
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 9:03 pm: | 
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Do any attorneys or law students The out there have any recommendations on choosing a law school?
I'm a Maplewood native, and have applied to schools for the fall. I applied all over the East Coast, and been accepted to a few, all of which are rated about the same on U.S. News.
How much should one weigh the money a school offers vs. location or ranking?
Ideas? |
The Dub
Citizen
Username: Hill_16
Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 9:16 pm: |
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Regardless of where you go just make sure that you study exceptionally hard in 1st year particularly if you intend to go the corporate/big firm route - most summer associate positions are based on first year scores.
I think ranking is a big consideration (especially by employers) and also find out what the "curve" is. Some schools have a B curve, others a D curve. Basically if it is a B curve you can't have lower than a 3.0 GPA which helps when looking for a job.
Best of luck to you - law school is both challenging and an exceptional time. I hope it works out for you. If you have an other questions feel free to ask.
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Virtual It Girl
Citizen
Username: Shh
Post Number: 4191
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 9:21 pm: |
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My sister graduated from Brooklyn Law about 1 1/2 years ago. She went to a SUNY (Buffalo) and worked as a paralegal at a prestigious law firm in NY before deciding to go ahead with Law School.
Because she intended to work through school, she only looked into NY area schools. Was interested in Fordham, but settled on Brooklyn. Ended up leaving her job, working PT for a Bklyn firm. Less than a year later, she applied to and got a job at another fairly big firm in NY, making about 3x her Bklyn salary.
I know when my brother decided against law school it was because he insisted he only go to the top ten in the country, he didn't want to be a lawyer getting out of law school only making $50k. I know that happens, but my sister has been fortunate. I guess her work experience and everything else helped her land a good job.
Dont know if this helps at all. Perhaps the schools have listings of firms their graduates have gone on to? That may be a good indicator. |
MichaelaM
Citizen
Username: Mayquene
Post Number: 131
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 9:26 pm: |
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What if you want to do public service? |
akb
Citizen
Username: Akb
Post Number: 397
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 9:45 pm: |
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Check what type of clinics and programs the schools have and any loan forgiveness for grads going into public interest work. Remember it can be extremely competitive in its own way so a combination of grades, clinic involvement and internships will be important.
If you list the schools, we can probably give more feedback. |
MichaelaM
Citizen
Username: Mayquene
Post Number: 132
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 9:50 pm: |
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BC, BU, Fordham, Brooklyn and Washington & Lee.
W&L gave me a substantial scholarship; no money from Fordham. Waiting on the rest. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 4464
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 9:55 pm: |
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What about Rutgers or SH Law? Doesn't Rutgers and SHL do a lot of 'Public Service' type law? |
akb
Citizen
Username: Akb
Post Number: 398
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 9:57 pm: |
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W&L is a good school in a beautiful part of the country, but it is not known for its public interest work. The student body of the law school is fairly right wing. I actually interacted a fair bit with their law school in a previous job (lived in VA), and was always impressed though. That said, if the scholarship is good (and the COL there is low), it may allow you to take on lower paid/volunteer positions in your summers which will be helpful in deciding if you really want to go into public interest and will give you essential contacts and experience.
What type of public interest are you thinking of? |
MichaelaM
Citizen
Username: Mayquene
Post Number: 133
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 10:04 pm: |
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I'd like to work in among low-income people, maybe children or another group that can't always speak up for themselves. Maybe politics someday. |
akb
Citizen
Username: Akb
Post Number: 399
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 10:12 pm: |
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BU will offer more options than W & L, but W & L does have a clinic for local low income groups. Of the list you posted, they are both ranked in the top 25, nationally.
Have you visited the campuses? Do you have a feel for whether you would like to be in an urban or more rural setting? Lexington is small - beautiful but not a metropolis! |
The Dub
Citizen
Username: Hill_16
Post Number: 8
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 10:17 pm: |
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I agree with AKB re. scholarship/work experience etc. Try and talk to recent graduates of all the schools - I am sure there are forums for the alumni whereby you can get info as to the standard of clinics etc.
Many publice interest positions have loan forgiveness for people who enter public service for a minimum amount of years so it is important that you get experience in these fields before you commit -
I also was accepted by Brooklyn Law School and Fordham and was very impressed by both but ultimately finances led me to choose a better scholarship |
MichaelaM
Citizen
Username: Mayquene
Post Number: 135
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 10:21 pm: |
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I read something about the horse of Robert E. Lee being buried at W&L's chapel ... visiting this weekend. Other schools to come.
How well would a W&L degree translate to working in NY/NJ? |
jab
Citizen
Username: Jab
Post Number: 542
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 10:47 pm: |
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I can try to answer any specific questions about Fordham (send me a PL if you want to chat sometime). The clinic program is excellent. There is a lot of support and programming for people who want to focus on public interest law. Most people end up working in NY, but I recognized several people at the NJ bar exam. If you want to end up in NY/NJ then I think you would be much better served by going to Fordham than leaving the area. Also keep in mind that public interest jobs are competitive and lots of new graduates are unable to find legal employment (employment rates in the year following graduation is a good statistic to be mindful of when researching different law schools). |
Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 2231
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 8:16 am: |
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I've heard good things about Harvard. |
Zach Williams
Citizen
Username: Babyzach
Post Number: 32
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 8:22 am: |
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Since you are going to carry the "brand" name of the law school with you for the rest of your life, go with the highest ranked, best known. Unless there's a specific niche that a school is known for that you are 100% determined to go into, you can't go wrong with this approach. |
HOMMELL
Citizen
Username: Hommell
Post Number: 71
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 8:32 am: |
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W&L is out in the boonies but has a decent name. There is no need to pay that much attention to U.S. News Rankings, although Harvard is Harvard. You are clearly in a top 50 School. If its a matter of deciding between #23 and #29, the difference in ranking has minimal impact. Go visit and see which one you like best. Remember, you are going to be living there for 3 years.
That said, law school is f%$!ing EXPENSIVE. Again, if deciding between #23 and #29, go with the cheaper one.
Also, be wary of law schools offering scholarships that require a certain GPA throughout law school. If the minimum is a 3.5, and the curve is a 2.5, you could likely lose that money and be paying retail for the remaining two years.
Also, have you applied to any state schools? Certain states offer much lower tuition for state residents. Becoming a "resident" for those purposes differs by state, but can often be done after the first year.
One final thought - if you are considering going into public service, getting paid $30K/year with $120K in debt is not fun (unless of course you have a substantial trustfund). I've seen it happen.
PL me if you want to discuss further. Good luck and congratulations on your acceptances thus far. |
Nohero
Supporter
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 5225
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 8:42 am: |
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If your intent is to start out at a big firm, with a high salary (or, as a law clerk for a judge of a prestigious Federal Court), then the "brand" of a "top" law school can be very important. I've found that as the years go on (20+ in my case), the particular "brand" becomes less and less important, than the other things you have done during your career.
If your intent is to be involved in public service or government work here in this area, then I would focus on a local school.
If you want to be in local politics, you are actually probably better off at a school like Fordham, or Rutgers, or Seton Hall - their alumni are very connected to local politics.
Also, no matter where you attend school, potential employers will be impressed with hard work, and activities such as writing for a journal or working in a legal clinic. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11039
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 8:49 am: |
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I am not a lawyer, but I will tell you that rankings change from year to year for all colleges and grad schools. The difference between 23 and 27 may be reversed by the time you graduate, so I wouldn't get hung up on that point.
At least on the undergrad side Washington and Lee has a reputation for having a very conservative student body, which might make your Dad happy, but if this carries over to the law school this might, or might not, be a plus or minus for you.
Congrads one way or another. |
bmpsab
Citizen
Username: Bmpsab
Post Number: 206
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 8:50 am: |
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As a Fordham Law alum (and now a partner at a firm in the city), I am happy to answer any questions you might have about the school so please feel free to PL me. As far as public service, the school has a fantastic clinic program (I could give you the name of the director if you are interested). The school also has a program that awards fellowships to students who do public service work during their law school summers. Really good school and it has served me well in my career. I disagree that Fordham and Brooklyn are rated the same. No offense to Brooklyn, but Fordham is in a much higher league (just like NYU and Columbia are in a different league than Forhdam). My brother-in-law went to BU (didn't get into Fordham) and he has found that it has been difficult to get the kinds of jobs he has wanted in NY (BU/BC would serve you better if you planned on staying in Boston).
Bottom line, if you aren't going to a top 10 school, then you should pick the best school in the geographical area in which you plan on working. That's where you will find the most alumni which is a critical factor in getting good jobs after law school.
Hope that helps. |
Chalmers
Citizen
Username: Chalmers
Post Number: 165
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 9:47 am: |
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I went to Northeastern University in Boston which has an unusual co-op program where you have a conventional first year and then work every three months in the second and third years. My co-ops were with a Third Circuit judge, the Justice Dept. in Washington, D.C., the Attorney General's office in Juneau, Alaska and a law firm in Washington, D.C. I enjoyed the broad range of legal experience I got. Some of the co-ops were paid, some I got funding from the school. All were good experience. If I were to apply to law school again, I might go with Rutgers for the tuition value. They have recently renovated their building. I just paid off my law school loans after 10 years. Northeastern is also one of the best in the country for public interest law, as is Yale. Feel free to PL me if you would like any more information. |
akb
Citizen
Username: Akb
Post Number: 400
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 10:33 am: |
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Chalmers, some of the best public interest lawyers I worked with (death penalty litigation) were NU alums. It is a great system, IMO. |
pangurbrown
Supporter
Username: Pangurbrown
Post Number: 39
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 10:59 am: |
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Of the schools you listed, if you want to work in NY, Fordham is your best bet. Bc and BU are both good schools but are not particularly well represented in NY. Washington and Lee is not a big enough brand name anywhere but in its home state. If you get into NYU, Columbia or Cornell, move up to them. |
Handygirl
Citizen
Username: Handygirl
Post Number: 634
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 11:31 am: |
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I agree pangurbrown. If you want to stay in the NY area - Fordham. If you do extremely well your first year you might be able to transfer to Columbia or NYU (transferred schools after my 1st year PL me if you have any questions about that). Note that going to law school in NYC will be insanely expensive (tuition + living expenses) and public interest pays so little.... You can always work in a big firm for a few years and then move into public interest. Also, some of the big firms have programs that send associates into public interests for 6 months or 1 year at they firm salary ("exchange programs"). BU and BC are both excellent law schools as well, but they don't flood the market like Fordham does. I do not know anything about W&L - I suspect that it is not very well known in this part of the country.
My advice is generally to go with the highest ranked school that you can get into. But, as was mentioned previously, rankings can shift, so there may not be much of a difference between 23 and 27, but there is a difference between 40 and 12 - just my 2 cents. |
jab
Citizen
Username: Jab
Post Number: 543
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 11:45 am: |
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Many Fordham students commute from NJ, Brooklyn, Queens, Westchster, Rockland County, and Long Island, so you can continue to live in M/SO and commute. I lived in the city until halfway through law school, but I never thought taking the train in for law school was a big deal after we moved here (and I have friends who commuted from NJ the whole time). |
MichaelaM
Citizen
Username: Mayquene
Post Number: 139
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 10:12 pm: |
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Thank you all for your input -- and sorry for the delayed response. Went to visit W&L this weekend. I think visiting schools will give me a better idea of where I should go. I really appreciate input from those of you who are precisely where I want to be.
I think my dad will be happiest when he no longer has to subsidize me (i.e., when I'm not a journalist!). 
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annettedepalma
Citizen
Username: Annettedepalma
Post Number: 419
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 12:26 pm: |
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I teach at Fordham so feel free to call me. My PL doesn't work, but I'm listed in the book. |
MichaelaM
Citizen
Username: Mayquene
Post Number: 141
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 2:46 pm: |
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Thanks, Annette. I'll do that. |
ASR
Citizen
Username: Asr
Post Number: 21
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 9:26 pm: |
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I know someone who went to Emory for business school, pretty dumb guy honestly, but made people laugh so he kept his job. His brother went to law school, some non-descript school in the carribean, and is now a big time lawyer. My point is that it does not matter where you go to school, but rather what you do after school. The morale of the story: don't be like the bozo who went to Emory, be like his brother
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Handygirl
Citizen
Username: Handygirl
Post Number: 645
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 12:31 pm: |
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ASR, Funny post, but I don't agree. I think that stories like that of "the brother" are the exception rather than the rule. The school does matter. Sometimes people overcome bad schools with luck, very big personalities, or nepotism, but this is the exception. More often than not, the doors are closed or are much harder to open. |
Zach Williams
Citizen
Username: Babyzach
Post Number: 37
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 7:52 pm: |
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Here's what you do...go to a big time school like University of Chicago - come out and underwhelm in every aspect of your job except one...just find that one thing that you can knock the snot out of - for example taking a simple mathematical calculation - product gets shipped, then products get bought and what you have left is inventory - and then make it super complicated and call it a "model" when in truth it probably could have been computed with an abacus. |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 3759
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 8:06 pm: |
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I sure am hungry for some candy, right about now. |
mwoodwalk
Citizen
Username: Mwoodwalk
Post Number: 532
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 9:41 pm: |
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bmpsab's post above about spells it out for me. If you want to practice in a particular region, pick the best school you got into in that region and work your AS* off and you'll have lots of options. I did that with my RU-Newark degree, and in hindsight turning down slightly higher ranked schools in favor staying where my heart was and putting the nose to the grindstone was among the best decisions of my life. Whatever you do, best of luck---and CONGRATULATIONS, you've obviously worked hard already to get where you are. Cheers!
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Amateur Night
Citizen
Username: Deborahg
Post Number: 1803
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 9:50 pm: |
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One other thought: As this thread shows, there are loads of folks on MOL who are lawyers or otherwise work in law firms (I'm marketing director for a NY firm, myself). So if you do stay in this area, be sure to come back and post along the way (maybe blog?), and then hit us all up when it's time to find a job. Good luck! |
mwoodwalk
Citizen
Username: Mwoodwalk
Post Number: 535
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 9:56 pm: |
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hey amateur night---pl me, b/c I think we share an acquaintence. cheers.
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ASR
Citizen
Username: Asr
Post Number: 23
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 10:52 am: |
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MHD,
You are the same guy who posted about hwo to treat your child for diaper rash, correct? You actually shared that putting butter on your childs butt really helped. I remember you because of that post...it was amazing. So when I saw your post about wanting some candy I got curious. I searched for more and more of your posts and see a trend...you are funny. But funny in a kind of dimented way. I assume you are either a quant jock IT guy, or a 10 year old girl just having fun with some adults. which is it? |
Handygirl
Citizen
Username: Handygirl
Post Number: 653
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 12:21 pm: |
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Offensive, no? Even with the blurring. |
Handygirl
Citizen
Username: Handygirl
Post Number: 654
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 7:12 pm: |
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Thanks Dave and Co. for removing the offensive porn posting. |
ASR
Citizen
Username: Asr
Post Number: 24
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 7:24 pm: |
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MHD,
I find that offensive. Handygirl...respect your POV. I guess there are benefits to going to a big name school like Harvard, Chicago, Stanford, etc...but if you dont go to one of the big few (maybe 10 of them total), it probably doesn't matter. Take a school like Suny Geneseo -- a school who's reputation is based on all the succesful comedians that graduated from there (check it out, many top local comedians got there start there: Tom Robbins, chris hanson, Sophie goodman). Geneseo has no reputation for academic standards, but a smart, hard working person will do just as well there as someone who went to a good local school like Fordham.
I will concede it will be harder to get the first gig coming out of Genseo, but then the advantage is gone.
Just my simple POV. and MHD, one question? was the women eating a Snickers bar because the man did not satisfy her? you know what they say, "packed with nuts, Snickers really satisfies" |
bmpsab
Citizen
Username: Bmpsab
Post Number: 207
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 8:20 pm: |
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Respectfully, I have to disagree with ASR. I know many people who have come out of lower ranked regional schools (Hofstra is a good example) who have had a lot of difficulty finding jobs and many gave up and went to different fields. If you do not go to a top 10 school or to a well respected "local school" like Fordham, you simply will never get a job at a top firm in NYC. That's just the truth. Now, not everyone wants to work in a top firm, but it would be misleading to tell someone that it will never make a difference what school they go to. When friends of mine apply for jobs even now that we are 10 years or more out of law school, the first question asked is which law school did they go to, and the second question is what grades did they get. A law school transcript follows you for your entire legal career, so choose wisely. |
ASR
Citizen
Username: Asr
Post Number: 25
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 8:31 pm: |
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bmpsab,
fair points. I guess it depends on your definition of a good lawfirm. I know someone who worked at a small shop that handled mostly litigation for OTC consumer firms, name of the firm I can't remember. I know it is not correct but squaremen and Goodhead pops into my tired brain. ring any bells? if so, would that be considered a good firm? |
Chalmers
Citizen
Username: Chalmers
Post Number: 168
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 1:27 pm: |
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With regard to bmpsab's points, I have a friend at a "top firm" in NYC and they work long hours into the night. I don't work for a "top firm" although 4 of the partners were named "Super Lawyers" in this month's NJ Monthly magazine, and I don't work nights or weekends. I think generally big salary means big billable hour requirement. So you can think about what kind of lifestyle you want in making the decision about how important that prestigious law school is to you. I've worked at small and medium firms where the attorneys have gone to a variety of schools ranging from state schools to Ivy League and in-between. I worked with one attorney who went to Hofstra and has done very well for herself. |
MichaelaM
Citizen
Username: Mayquene
Post Number: 143
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 10:24 pm: |
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Good idea, I'll hit you all up for a job in three years.
(Don't hold my dad's politics against me, OK?) |
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