Goldendoodle or other doodle-dog comm...

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Author Message   Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 722 Registered: 5-2004 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 1:37 pm:        My daughter is just dying for a dog. After doing months and mounds of research, I decided a mini goldendoodle puppy would work best for our family and home. Reasons: *Golden Retriever and Poodle breeds are well know for their intelligence and trainability, *Golden retrievers are very loyal and extremely good natured around young kids, *Poodles don't shed, and this trait is often handed down to the hybrid pups. * first generation hybrids tend to play down genetic defects specific to each purebred breed and are said to have something called "hybrid vigor" which to me, means they will likely be healthier than a purebred dog. * mini-poodle parents of goldendoodles usually yield a medium sized dog which is better suited to both the size of our house/yard and my children. I thought it was a done decision - then one of the most patient and calm people I know, whose family bought a Labradoodle in the past year, very calmly said, "Don't get a doodle." She and another friend of hers who owns a Goldendoodle, seem to think the dogs are not at all easy to raise and are almost "too friendly" and needy. Anyone else out there with experience, suggestions or recommendations? (I know that many of you will say we should save a dog from JAC, but for our family I much prefer to properly raise a puppy to behave the way that will work best for our family. I plan to crate-train and spend a lot of time training our puppy from day one.) Thanks for any helpful comments about the doodle crossbred dogs/breeders!   Wendyn Supporter Username: Wendyn Post Number: 2873 Registered: 9-2002 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 2:06 pm:        No specific advice on doodles as I have pugs (one from a not-so-reputable breeder and one from rescue). I did find this guy though (baby Labradoodle looking for a home): http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=6017056 Petfinder is one of my favorite sites because it lists by breed (some mixed) and it gives lots of information about the pet, including (sometimes estimated) age, training, health issues, adaptability to kids. Lots of baby/young dogs on there too. Just wanted to throw it in there... The "hybrid vigor" sounds like the concept that mixed breeds (from shelters, etc) are less prone to breed specific conditions. Interesting. Good luck!   Wendyn Supporter Username: Wendyn Post Number: 2874 Registered: 9-2002 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 2:12 pm:        One more thing...if you haven't seen it check out The Dog Whisperer on the National Geographic channel. Amazing dog/human trainer. His shows get repetitive after a while because 80% of the people coming to him with problems don't exercise/work their dogs enough. Anyway it is worth a look before you get your new housemate!   Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 724 Registered: 5-2004 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 2:17 pm:        Thanks for the link, Wendyn. I've learned that the hybrid vigor referred to really relates only to the first generation mix of two different breeds. For some reason, this vigor is strongest in the first generation. For this reason all the good breeders require proof of sterilization of their doodle pups before their health warranty will be valid (they don't sterilize the pups too young, before they go to their new homes.) They don't want puppy-owners to permit their dogs to breed and possibly introduce genetic problems into the doodle breed. It is important to me that we find our future dog through a reputable breeder and not a puppy mill, pet store, etc. This way we can have reasonable assurances of the puppy's parents health, that the pup is a first generation mix, that as a puppy it was loved, played with, cuddled and well-socialized, etc. Of course, I hope to learn of anyone's first-hand experience with a doodle dog first, so we are sure what we are getting into. Thanks!   Jim Murphy Citizen Username: Jimmurphy Post Number: 272 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 2:18 pm:        What would a Cocker Spaniel/Poodle hybrid be called?   Jim Murphy Citizen Username: Jimmurphy Post Number: 273 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 2:19 pm:        A cock-a-doodle? Sorry   kmk Supporter Username: Kmk Post Number: 1108 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 2:21 pm:        I should qualify the following comments with the fact that we own a 2 year-old female standard poodle. I have two close friends and a neighbor with goldendoodles. I agree that there is not as much LOVE-of-breed as I had expected with these dogs. They are all three males. It seems that the breed blend is often an unknown...sometimes you get more golden...sometimes you get more doodle. All three have had training issues - big time. One was almost given back because he was far too boisterous and literally knocked grandma off of the deck at a party! Another was so annoying that she started locking him in the kitchen - which only made things worse really because he needed excercise. Finally - my neighbor's dog is only loud (barking) in the evening. I just recently found out the the dog goes to work with the husband - daily! This is my take on the dogs: Standard Poodles - smart, clean, can be very small (mine is only 20" tall at the shoulders)or very large, like to walk on hind legs like a monkey (must be trained to not jump on people or steal food from counter tops), Narrow muzzle and body very much like a greyhound (deep chest), SUPER intelligent, like to bark (must be trained), easily "toilet" trained, love to run "full-out" like a greyhound, has no interest in playing catch or fetching. Golden Doodles - loveable, a little dumb, need just as frequent grooming as poodles ($$), typically larger and heavier, can still walk on hind legs (a little dangerous given their larger size and "friendly" disposition), blockier head shape and more barrel chested body, typically have a long and shaggy tail, more likely to lick and play catch, bark sometimes (higher-pitched suprisingly), all training takes a little extra effort, must be given plenty of room to run etc. We actually flew to Minnesota to get our standard. I feel strongly that it is worth the effort to research your breeder thoroughly.   Soparents Citizen Username: Soparents Post Number: 80 Registered: 5-2005 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 2:21 pm:        It could be worse, the poodle could be the dominate line and therefore it would be a poo-cock...   kmk Supporter Username: Kmk Post Number: 1109 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 2:22 pm:        A cockapoo!   Pippi Supporter Username: Pippi Post Number: 1997 Registered: 8-2003 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 2:40 pm:        pdg - I have close friends who has a golden doodle. Or maybe a labradoodle. I forget. They did a lot of research on breeders. If you'd like to speak with them, private line me.   Scully Citizen Username: Scully Post Number: 264 Registered: 8-2005 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 2:48 pm:        I think "hybrid vigor" refers to mutts in general (Heinz 57) which usually tend to live way longer than purebreds. Most of my dogs from childhood up have lived in the 15 to 17 year range. My one pedigree (gift from my daughter) died at 9 years. Just BROKE my heart BTW.   greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 7094 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 2:53 pm:        I had to place my mom's Labradoodle in a new home. He was the sweetest thing, but very, very high energy and demanding. The thing about the cross breeds is that you can get any combination of the good/bad traits of both breeds. Poodles are very smart and very stubborn. Labs are very friendly, need lots of attention and don't mature until later than other dogs. They are chewers and will stay puppyish until they are two or three. So, you can end up with a very smart, stubborn, destructive, high energy dog who will be the love of your life and a perfect family fit if you can take the first 2 or 3 years and train them very well. When I was dealing with my mom's dog, I talked to other doodle owners and got the same message: they are a full time job. One of the main reasons for cross-breeding the poodle is that they are better for allergy sufferers and don't tend to shed much. Great for the furniture, but not the best criterion for choosing a pet (IMHO). Unless you have a lot of time to devote to training, can be consistent and take them for lots of long runs, I'd stay away from lab/goldendoodles. Too many of them end up in rescue programs. If you decide to go with one, make sure that you find out as much as you can about the parents and personalities of previous litters. There is no guarantee, but if a parent is high-strung, you probably don't want one of its pups. Good luck.   Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 2237 Registered: 7-2003 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 3:10 pm:        I’m not sure how you can look for a reputable breeder, considering these hybrids are a crap shoot. It’s not like they can look at a dog’s linage and make an assumption that this dog will be intelligent, or calm, or even shed less. The AKC has come up with guidelines on the temperament of dogs, their sizes, and their traits. But you’re taking a wild guess on what you get with a hybrid. People who breed designer dogs are cross-breeding with the hopes of getting the best of both worlds. They may get the worst of both worlds A reputable breeder will make sure that the puppies are from lineages that don’t mix in 3 generations, and breed animals that don’t display the common illnesses for the breed (Patella issues, Hip Dysphasia, etc) I think what you’re looking for is a lucky breeder, one who has produced a good hybrid dog and has a shot of doing it again. “Golden Retriever and Poodle breeds are well know for their intelligence and trainability” - then get a Golden Retriever or a Poodle *Golden retrievers are very loyal and extremely good natured around young kids” - then get a Golden Retriever *Poodles don't shed, and this trait is often handed down to the hybrid pups.” - then get a Poodle The Labradoodle is not filling a niche that isn't occupied by several pure breeds, it’s just new and different, and frankly, a mutt.   MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3735 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 3:45 pm:        PDG, My sister-in-law got a Goldendoodle puppy in August 2004 from a breeder outside of Toronto. I think they paid around $1500 USD (We happened to be there with them when they picked the puppy up). The puppy was extremely cute (and the dog is still pretty cute) and VERY energetic. We had considered getting one ourselves, but my sister-in-law says the dog does require an enormous amount of attention and is really not suitable if you are not working at home all day (or a stay-at-home parent). All things considered I think they are happy with the dog & the kids love the dog (including my 4 year old). Just don't underestimate the amount of work. If you want to speak to them first-hand, I can provide you their email or phone information offline (they live up near Albany).   Josh Holtz Citizen Username: Jholtz Post Number: 363 Registered: 4-2004 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 4:22 pm:        I'm sorry but a "mini goldendoodle" sounds like some sort of Hostess dessert ...   crabby Citizen Username: Crabbyappleton Post Number: 541 Registered: 1-2004 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 4:58 pm:        How about a schnoodle? (Schnauser/Mini poodle)   Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 729 Registered: 5-2004 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 5:59 pm:        After the feedback so far, I'm more likely NOT to get this expensive "mutt". Initially, the mutt idea appealed to me for the health reasons. The jumping up thing is of most concern, so maybe we'll lean toward a golden retriever. My in-laws have a Wheaton Terrier, which I used to think would be the dog I'd one day get for the kids. BUT, after seeing this neurotic and, ok I'll just say it, DUMB dog remain rather untrained after 3 years of classes, and constantly do "submissive urinating" under the friendliest circumstances, I'll pass. This dog recently suddenly jumped up on my 5 yo son and knocked him right off his feet and into the kitchen cabinets! This happened while I was there and my son was not doing anything to excite the dog - I'm sure he was just telling my son he wanted to play, but the kid was hurting for awhile. This part of being a parent I really don't enjoy - I had a dog growing up and feel it is probably a "right" of childhood, but man, I'm really starting to regret agreeing to a dog... (Thanks to everyone for your help!)   Josh Holtz Citizen Username: Jholtz Post Number: 365 Registered: 4-2004 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 6:09 pm:        If you are looking for a hypoallergenic dog maybe the Golden is the wrong way to go. For a medium sized dog how about a Portugese Water Dog? We have a Bouvier (larger breed) and he is a non-shedder.   dOd Citizen Username: Dod Post Number: 50 Registered: 5-2004 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 6:10 pm:        This will win me no friends. Hybrid vigor is a myth. Look for a tested line of dogs in the breed you're after. The mixing of breeds like "doodles" is a scam perpetrated on unsuspecting puppy buyers who are, for some crazy reason, happy to spend thousands of dollars on a mutt. (No disrespect to mutts intended.) I challenge you to find a crossbred breeder using lines of tested dogs capable of doing the work they were intended to do. And there is no good reason to castrate an animal if you can practice basic, responsible animal husbandry. dOd   Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 1871 Registered: 3-2004 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 6:28 pm:        Long time dog owner here, from childhood on. Let me second dOd's posting above. Go the extra mile/research established dog breeds on the web--there's plenty of information. Choose a dog that will grow a bit with your children and be energetic enough to play with them. Also pay attention to one salient fact: smaller dogs are often quite hyper and have a great deal of trouble ever calming down. Larger dogs don't "seem" to need to defend as much territory as the smaller breeds, and will generally be calmer and steadier (assuming that the atmosphere in your home enables that). Bigger dogs don't take up that much room since they don't need, once they're grown, to run all over the house barking and kicking up a fuss. Think carefully about which type of dog best suits you. If you make a mistake, it will quickly affect your happiness with your chosen dog, until you get rid of it. However, your wrong choice will affect the dog long after you may be out of the picture, and the dog is in its second or third home. IMHO.   kmk Supporter Username: Kmk Post Number: 1113 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 6:59 pm:        My friends have Basinjis (sp?) they are adorable, they are small, short haired hypo-allergenic, and most importantly they don't bark! Her dog is a show dog. The breeder shows it and then brings it back to her. SHe did just have her first litter of puppies at Christmas and they were sold within a few weeks. Now the puppies are show dogs. They are very energetic and they do require some real excercise time. BTW: I only agreed to the dog when we were finally diaper free in the house. It would have been a nightmare cleaning poop and pee from a kid and a puppy. No matter what the other family members tell you - you will be the primary caregiver for the pet.   oots Citizen Username: Oots Post Number: 376 Registered: 6-2001 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 7:36 pm:        We have a labradoodle-she is the best!!!!! oots   Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 731 Registered: 5-2004 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 9:44 pm:        Actually, it's funny you mention the basenji dog. This is the dog that started this whole "I wanna dog!" obsession! My daughter's classmate has a basenji that gave birth to a litter this winter and they brought one of the pups to their classroom to show the kids when the pups were old enough. The pup apparently fell in love with my daughter and she it. You're right, the breed doesn't "bark". They sort of scream, talk and "yodel". Check out the sound bites from this link - it's amazing (and a bit scary). www.basenjiclub.com/?q=node/7 After researching this breed, I discovered that it absolutely would not work for us (me!). Major load of work, and if they get out they are hard to catch and apparently they get so focused on whatever they chase that they will not notice a car to get out of the way. I also saw pictures of what a basenji did to a home after it had been permitted to roam freely when the owners were away! My hope is to raise a puppy that will become a well-trained-enough dog to leave free in the house rather than always crated while we are out. This is not the case with the basenji!   Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 732 Registered: 5-2004 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 9:56 pm:        Dod and Innisowen - I'm curious what breed you would recommend for a family of 4, including a animal loving girl who will be 7 in June and a boisterous yet cautious (maybe he is trying not to be a little afraid of dogs since he's been jumped on and knocked down a lot) boy who turned 5 in January. My son says he doesn't care if we get a dog, but my daughter claims she'll never be truly happy until she has a dog to play with and cuddle. I need a dog that won't go insane because of, but rather will love being the affectionate play-buddy for my kids. I want an intelligent and fun-loving dog that can be trained to "fetch" and maybe play frisbee-type games with us, as well as the basic dog "Manners" like no begging, no jumping up on people, off the couch, no barking unless there is an intruder, etc. I also want a dog that will enjoy going outside and won't need to be nudged outside if it is raining or snowy (my in-laws' Bichon frise is a total wimpy "non-dog" type of dog that spend most of its time on its back asking for tummy rubs!) I think this sounds like a golden retriever, but please correct me if I am wrong! I'd also appreciate the names of any reputable breeders! __________-- Josh, I do love the look of the Portuguese water dogs, but I had heard they are notorious "chewers" and I love my furniture! We don't really "need" a hypoallergenic dog - I was just hoping for less mess/smelly-house which is why the non-shed was appealing.   greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 7099 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 10:26 pm:        Pdg- labs are everything you want, except that they are notorius chewers. They don't really outgrow it until they are 2 or 3. My mom has had several (goldens and retrievers). They were all wonderful dogs, once they matured. Even then, one of her goldens had emergency surgery at the age of 5 or 6 to remove the area rug he'd eaten and gotten entangled around his intestines. Her last retriever ate a rock maple cutting board. To be fair, tho, I think that her dogs acted out when they were older because she didn't give them enough attention (lived alone, traveled for work). They are working dogs and need to be "busy". If you have the energy and patience, labs are wonderful family dogs. But, because of the "extended puppyhood" many tend to end up in rescue programs. I think that you are being very responsible by researcing the best fit. But, I do have to say that some of the nicest & well behaved dogs I've ever known (and lived with) were mutts.   aneighbor Citizen Username: Aneighbor Post Number: 106 Registered: 8-2001 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 10:46 pm:        What about a Havernese???   doulamomma Citizen Username: Doulamomma Post Number: 1301 Registered: 3-2002 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 11:01 pm:        We have a Spinone - we adopted him as an adult from a breeder who had rescued him (a dog of divorce - they both wanted him - neither got him)...here are some random thoughts as they come to me about my dog in particular, but probably true of the breed: he is as even-tempered today as he was the day we brought him home. They are very big, wire-haired dogs that shed very little. Very kid-friendly (our dog tolerates being climbed on and my toddler occasionally rides him) & make excellent service dogs. He was trained when we got him & follows basic commands...he has a hard time helping himself if there is food or yummy diapers in the trash (!), so we just keep it put away. He's very mellow & would sit on my lap (as he seems to have no concept of his size) if I let him...he doesn't jump & stays off the furniture - he loves his bed & treats. Doesn't really like toys/balls but given that they are hunting dogs who (I think) fetch for hunters, I think my dog just isn't personally into it but could probably be taught. Will bark at the doorbell (even on TV) or if someone comes to the door. Will very occasionally howl if left outside for too long, but that's rare. They must be groomed occasionally & have very big feet that can track in a lot of water/dirt of not wiped, but he's great about stopping to have his paws cleaned off. He's not a big kisser unless invited...but he is a leaner if he likes you. Here's a link - sorry for the lame music. http://www.spinone.com/frBreed.htm I think the closest breeder is in PA - that's who we went through.   dOd Citizen Username: Dod Post Number: 51 Registered: 5-2004 Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 11:22 pm:        Pdg, you are describing many breeds. The behaviours you're hoping for have a lot more to do with you as owners than the breeds themselves. Ask yourself a few questions: size, length of hair, activity level and temperament. By temperament I mean what was the dog's original job and can it still do that job. You'd be foolish to get a border collie for example if you like to sit on the sofa all day. A clumber spaniel, however, may fit the bill. Then it comes down to simply, what do you like? What breed touched you as a kid? Which dogs have you always admired? Never underestimate curb appeal with an animal that you're going to live with for 15 years. If you haven't yet, take in a dog show with the family to see the various breeds out there. As much as I disagree with the AKC and showing dogs, it does present an opportunity to see a large number of breeds under one roof. Narrow it down and start researching. It takes some time to find a good dog. I just wouldn't spend 2K on a labradoodle when I can get a well bred lab for about $600 and an equally well bred standard poodle for $800. Hope that helps some. dOd   Rick B Citizen Username: Ruck1977 Post Number: 1039 Registered: 8-2003 Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 8:03 am:        we have a 2 year old lab, we got her as a pup. she is still a pup. labs need a lot of excercise, and most folks who get them don't realize that. our girl goes out twice a day, usually one long walk and one vigorous play session. that usually does the trick, but the frist year, she was a maniac. they tend to chew more when they are bored. its just their way of getting rid of pent up energy. if you excercise them, that really helps, and keep something around that they can chew on. our pup had a liking for those throw rugs, one you might put in front of your door. she partially ate about 3 of them. i think with most dogs, if you are expecting to get a dog that will play when you want to play and cuddle when you want to cuddle, look into getting an older dog. puppies are very difficult, but their cuteness offsets a lot. they nip at you and have to learn that they can't do that. they will have bathroom mistakes and so will you (in fact most of them will be your fault, if not all). good luck. with training, excercise, and consistency, you will make a great home for a pooch.   Wendyn Supporter Username: Wendyn Post Number: 2876 Registered: 9-2002 Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 8:26 am:        If you get a working or hound dog, be prepared to work & exercise all the time. Otherwise they get very destructive. Goldens are great, but they shed copious amounts of long hair. Be prepared to vaccum a couple of times a week. Once older they are very gentle and wonderful with kids. I very much hope you reconsider getting a mixed mutt or rescue, especially if you get a lab or other common breed. There are literally thousands of purebread and mixed labs on petfinder waiting for a home, many of them very young. JAC alone has 8 lab/lab mixes, all young or baby, waiting to be adopted. You are never guaranteed perfect health in an animal no matter how much you research the breeder. I'll give a shout-out for pugs, that are like big dogs in a small package. Great with kids, short hair (although they do shed), love to wrestle & go for walks but don't need too much exercise. Not the smartest dog in the world but if you keep up the training (which I did not) they would be fine. But I know they are an aquired taste for some! I love their ugly mugs.   Jennifer Grogan Citizen Username: Girlnovelist Post Number: 42 Registered: 3-2004 Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 8:35 am:        PDG -- Just wanted to drop a quick thought in about Golden Retrievers. I think the dog you are describing is a Golden (among other breeds.) But, from experience, I want to emphasize that you are describing an adult golden. You've clearly done your research, but I wanted to just point this out, since it was a mistake I made. We have a 13 month old Golden and he is still a puppy. They are very trainable, but I would say that we are about 60% on achieving the manners you've described. I anticipate him being fully trained by 2 years and this is very typical of the breed. GRs (and I don't know how this translates into the doodle breed) are notorious for jumping up to greet. We continue to work diligently on this and I know that he will "get" it, eventually. He never begs at the table or barks, both of which he got early (say 4 to 5 months of age) with diligent crate training. Potty training was a breeze (with the crate) but I don't think he will ever be kept off the furniture. He will get off the couch when instructed to, but he is a family dog and wants to be whereever the family is. Right next to them, in the same room, in the same space ... I think you get my drift here. They will want to be everywhere in your house. I am a person who thinks any dog can be trained to do anything, but this is a natural aspect of the personality and will always be there. Fletcher loves the outdoors and I've never met a self-respecting Golden who didn't like the snow or even the rain. They are notorious water dogs. Because of the long-hair, he gets filthy outside and needs to be wiped down often after play. It goes without saying that they need slots of play. Goldens though like to do pretty much everything, so I have no trouble tiring mine out. Walks, play in the backyard, fetch. Until he reached about 9 months Fletcher needed a lot of outside time in order to be calm inside. Now as he matures, he can do with less and companionship and attention (which it sounds like you have an abundance of) can substitute for some exercise when you just can't get out on a particular day. But, again, this is only been as he matures. When we got Fletcher as a puppy, I used to get so upset. I thought I had the only Golden who misbehaved. I know, silly, but all the tv commercials convinced me that they emerged from the womb as perfect companions. The truth is, at 13 months, I have an amazing dog who comes when called, knows commands, loves people and adores spending a quiet night dozing while the family watches TV. Of course, he also chases the cat and still hasn't mastered polite leash walking. I know this is long-winded, but, hey, I love the breed. I have to say also that I respectfully, disagree with some of the above posts about the doodle breeds. The fact of the matter is, all the breeds we have today started off as mutts or mixtures of breeds. I can't name them off the top of my head, but Goldens were born from crossbreeding 3 or 4 other breeds, in order to get the best qualities of all the dogs. If the breeder is reputable and you know what you are getting, I say enjoy and welcome a pup into your family. IT is a very unscientific survey, but I know of 3 people who own doodles. 2 were very happy and 1 was returned to the breeder because she was too boisterous. This is a pretty good ratio. The fact of the matter is Goldens (and labs and beagles...) are returned to breeders all the time because their owners see them as being too much work, or too energetic, or too aggressive. Anyway, hopefully this can give you some food for thought. I know of several good GR breeders. Let me know if you are interested! Good luck with a new pup! This is a very exciting time for your family! Oh, and I just wanted to add that I second the notion of getting an adult dog or even rescuing. Not all rescue dogs are abused or hard to deal with. So many are given up because of moves or changes in family situation and you can often get a dog that's has a jump start on training. Also, breeders often have adult dogs to sell. Usually, the dog has some (usually invisible) flaw that disqualifies them as a "show dog" but makes them perfect for a family.   Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 735 Registered: 5-2004 Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 1:50 pm:        Jennifer, I just sent you a PL. Thanks!   Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 78 Registered: 2-2006 Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 2:36 pm:        Hi PDG: I do adoptions at the shelter in South Orange and am a licensed vet tech and own three dogs at this time. I train dogs and deal with behavior issues and I am also a mom of two kids so I have alot of experience in that field. Below is a statement you made and to get my point across please reread your own words: I need a dog that won't go insane because of, but rather will love being the affectionate play-buddy for my kids. I want an intelligent and fun-loving dog that can be trained to "fetch" and maybe play frisbee-type games with us, as well as the basic dog "Manners" like no begging, no jumping up on people, off the couch, no barking unless there is an intruder, etc. I also want a dog that will enjoy going outside and won't need to be nudged outside if it is raining or snowy (my in-laws' Bichon frise is a total wimpy "non-dog" type of dog that spend most of its time on its back asking for tummy rubs!) What you are looking for is "ANY" dog that is well-balanced, happy, well trained and loved. There is no breeder or breed who will deliver you a dog with those attributes. I would not recommend a puppy since you have no idea what a dogs personality will be until he/she is about 5-6 months old. Some dogs are naturally shy and some will always be alpha (you don' want that in your situation). These are personalty traits and not a breed issue. You describe your family and if I had you down at the shelter I would tell you the following. Get a medium sized, hollow boned breed (easier to walk cause they are lighter like a poodle, a doodle (cockapoo, maltipoo), but most highly recommended a Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier if you want your children to be able to walk the dog. Your daughter is 7 years old and will not be able to walk most 35 to 50 lbs young dogs (that is a medium sized dog around 1 year old) by herself until she is about 12 unless she is a female bambam. Realistically you will be doing the walking, the feeding, the clean up and for that matter the training. The romantic notion of getting a dog for your daughter is just that "a notion". She is too young to be able to be a consitent influence and that is the key to training plus frankly she is not strong enough to walk any of the breeds you mentioned. The soft coated wheaten would definately be a good breed possibility. Now all puppies are energetic, rambunctious, chewy (some more then others), adorable, not housebroken, and realistically you will need to count on about a year of solid consistent positive training before you have a housebroken, basic dog "Manners" like no begging, no jumping up on people, off the couch, no barking unless there is an intruder, etc. dog. Or you consider a dog that is two years and older. Personaltiy is clearly visible, bad puppy behaviors are gone, leash behavior is know dog has already calmed down a bit but still playful. Why don't you come down to the shelter one day and take a look at the different sizes and see what your daughter can handle. I would also recommend you stay away from small breeds since they usually do not do well in an active house with small kids. Bajou   Jennifer Grogan Citizen Username: Girlnovelist Post Number: 43 Registered: 3-2004 Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 4:34 pm:        PDG ... replied to your PL. Let me know if you don't get it. I definitley concur with Bajou that the adults in the household will have to have the ultimate responsibility for the dog. I, too, cannot imagine a 7 year old walking any large breed dog (or even medium, for that matter). But I do think the 5 and 7 year old could be actively involved in the feeding, care and training of any dog. You may even be able to convince them to clean-up after the pup once in a while. Give them simple training responsibilites that will show the dog that the children are higher in the pack order and must be listened to and respected. For example, my dog has to sit politely for his dinner and then wait for permission to get up an eat. It's a very short training session that suits the attention span of both dog/puppy and child and I think that (with supervision) a 7 year old could easily be given this responsibility. It think we got more out of these short training rituals spaced throughout the day than we did from all 3 obedience classes combined! LOL! I don't know anything about Wheaten Terriers, but I found some google pictures that were adorable and the size seems ideal. Jen   kmk Supporter Username: Kmk Post Number: 1123 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 5:01 pm:        We were sooooooo close to getting a Wheaton Terrier! My husband heard that they were "diggers" and that somehow changed our mind. Our standard (poodle) is a very similar size to the Wheatons.   Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 79 Registered: 2-2006 Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 5:25 pm:        Hi Pdg: By the way should you be interested the Jersey Animal Coalition will have another big Adoption weekend again this weekend. JAC has once again rescued w whole bunch of puppies and young adult dogs from Georgia which will arrive on Friday night. You can preview them on www.petfinder.com or directly on http://www.petfinder.org/pet.cgiaction=1&pet.Shelterid=NJ84&preview=1&sort=pet.I dentifier&pet.Animal=Dog Lots of Beagles and hound mixes and there are a bunch of black pups that look like hound/cocker mixes. I forgot to mention I do have a maltipoo and love her from head to tail but she is very high maintenance. she is fully trained but very emotional and hyper. My white shep, whom I adopted from Newark Pound 6 years ago would be have been ideal for your situation but he was 5 years old when I got him. My kids grew up with him. I just adopted Princess (now named Jesse who is a "god-nows-what") and she is just wonderful. We would have had the perfect dog for you last week at the shelter. A beautiful purebred (papers and all) yellow lab 5 years old. Well behaved, calm, fully, trained, wonderful personality. You might ask why he is in a shelter if he is so wonderful?! Unfortunately both his owner died in a car crash in Georgia and we had him shopped up here because in Georgia they have 24 hours to find a home then they are gased (still legal in Georgia). The shelters in the South are overwhelmed and very few people fix their dogs so there are always tons of puppies in shelters with only 24 hour window of a chance. Here is a link to their site (not for the weakhearted or for kids) any dog marked Urgent is on his last day! http://www.shelterrescue.org/id2.html There are lots of perfect dogs in shelters and lots of nightmare dogs hidden in little puppy packages at breeders. Also don't buy into these ridicilous price ranges of $1,500.00 for a pup. A good breeder will sell you a pup (pet quality not show for $800.00) No common breed pup should cost $1,500.00. That is a rip-off or if you made up your mind about a specific breed go on the internet and look for breed rescue. Petfinder.com will also let you search by breed or maybe just look around on the site and maybe you will see your perfect dog.   dOd Citizen Username: Dod Post Number: 52 Registered: 5-2004 Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 5:27 pm:        Couple of points. Grogan said: "I have to say also that I respectfully, disagree with some of the above posts about the doodle breeds. The fact of the matter is, all the breeds we have today started off as mutts or mixtures of breeds. I can't name them off the top of my head, but Goldens were born from crossbreeding 3 or 4 other breeds, in order to get the best qualities of all the dogs. If the breeder is reputable and you know what you are getting, I say enjoy and welcome a pup into your family." While many breeds came about as a mix of a number of other breeds to isolate and promote certain traits for a specific purpose, in no way and in no breed were those traits locked in an F1 generation. It takes many generations to promote desirable genetic traits while discouraging undesirable ones. The doodle breeders are not creating a breed. They are cross-breeding two breeds and creating a mix. They are not selecting for the best traits and culling the worst, and I'll bet none of them are using decent stock to begin with. Proper dog breeding is a tough game and true working dog breeders must cull mercilessly to achieve their aims. A cross between a poodle and a retriever is a compete crap shoot. In itself, no huge crime, but to then charge 1500 - 2500 for the pups is unconscionable. Forgive me, but anyone who pays that is just dumb. Bajou, you said: "Get a medium sized, hollow boned breed (easier to walk cause they are lighter like a poodle, a doodle (cockapoo, maltipoo)..." What is a hollow-boned dog? Did you simply mean get a smaller lighter dog? A smaller dog is easier to walk if poorly trained, but no easier if trained properly. dOd   Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13330 Registered: 1-2003 Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 5:39 pm:        pdg, what are your most important criteria? It's possible that many breeds could suit you, but I can't tell. Do you want high or low energy? Do you want it to be safe in your yard without a fence? Is hypoallergenic high on your list? How much destruction of your stuff can you tolerate? Do you want it to do tricks? Would requiring lots of exercise be a plus or a minus? How much barking in the house can you tolerate? There are lots of other questions you should be asking yourself, but these pop to my mind.   Jennifer Grogan Citizen Username: Girlnovelist Post Number: 44 Registered: 3-2004 Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 6:17 pm:        dOd wrote: "While many breeds came about as a mix of a number of other breeds to isolate and promote certain traits for a specific purpose, in no way and in no breed were those traits locked in an F1 generation. It takes many generations to promote desirable genetic traits while discouraging undesirable ones. The doodle breeders are not creating a breed. They are cross-breeding two breeds and creating a mix. They are not selecting for the best traits and culling the worst, and I'll bet none of them are using decent stock to begin with." I agree that promoting desirable genetic traits takes generations, but one has to start somewhere. Most of the breeders I've seen are creating the F1 generation, but they are also breeding Goldendoodles to Goldendoodles (F2) and backcrossing, which will, eventually, create a new breed. Whether we need any new breeds of dogs is certainly a subject for debate, but this is nothing new or unusual in the dog world. As you point out (and I whole-heartedly concur) the world of dog breeding is rife with people who behave unconscionably. But I think it is ridiculous to say that breeders of doodles are any more so than other breeders. I am sure that there are responsible doodle breeders out there who use good stock and who are selecting for the best traits and plenty of others that do not. Moreover, there are plenty of breeders of purebred Goldens who continue to use for breeding stock, sick and dysplatic dogs or Lab breeders who continue to breed dogs known to be aggressive or high strung. It is ridiculous to lump one set of breeders into a particular category.   dOd Citizen Username: Dod Post Number: 53 Registered: 5-2004 Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 6:16 am:        I haven't done the research, so I could be totally talkng out of my •••, but I'll bet that no breeders are at the very least scoring hips. Do you realize that a "goldendoodle X goldendoodle" is not a "goldendoodle", but rather a "double doodle"? What I find fascinating about this is that the cross was first done to create a tractable non-shedding dog. How the breeder stumbled past the Standard Poodle-a well known tractable non-shedding breed-is amazing. Yes, the dog world is filled with breeders that range from woefully ignorant, to abjectly stupid, to downright criminal. 90% of them should have their dogs taken away and 80% of that 90 should have their children taken away. Not sure how that gives the doodle breeders a pass. dOd   Jennifer Grogan Citizen Username: Girlnovelist Post Number: 45 Registered: 3-2004 Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 7:52 am:        Alas, we've reached the limit of my canine genetics knowledge with the birth of the "double doodle" so I let it stand there. dOd, I think you've coined a new name for the breed! I did just want to clarify that I was in no way saying that bad doodle breeders deserve a pass. I was just saying that they are like any other dog breeder out there and shouldn't be demonized any more than one would a breeder of any other type of dog. The breeders I found online were all (claiming) to have OFA hip clearances and CERF eye clearences for their breeding dogs. Of course, for every one who is properly screening, I am sure there are plenty that aren't and while I could care less what someone is willing to pay for a pup, I think it is absolutely criminal to breed dogs or buy puppies without proper clearances. Hip Dysplasia is rampant among large breed dogs and it is absolutely the fault of unscrupulous breeders. Clearly, we have a great group of dog lovers here and that makes me happy. Jen   steven Citizen Username: Steven Post Number: 72 Registered: 6-2001 Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 8:44 am:        Where I grew up, if your pedigree had puppies with my pedigree, we got mutts. What a great marketing ploy to get money from the rich.   Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 82 Registered: 2-2006 Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 1:45 pm:        Dear dOd: I own three dogs who are all mutts. I also come from a family that bred Great Danes and Dachshunds (no crossbreeding there LOL). I am neither for nor against pures or mutts. I am for dogs. As a vet tech who got her license with Dr. Thomas David in Vienna Austria. I know quite a bit about genetic deceases. Dr. David invented the hip replacement joint for hip-dyslpasia operations. He was also the first to successfully operate on a dachshund that was paralized which was a 9 hour spinal cord surgery and yes the dog could walk again(a major genetic issue for dachsies). Every good vet has studied him if he/she is 45 or younger. There is not a single breed out there that does not have major weak points when it comes to their health. The pugs have their eyes. The bulldogs have their knees. The sheps, rotties and all other heavy breed dogs have their hip issues. Poodles have a very high cancer rate and Spaniels have cocker rabies which is a form of dementia and so on. You mention in your posting how a breeder has to mercilessly cull (by the way which means kill not seperate from breeding stock) to stick by the standard but the biggest problem with pure-breds is that breeders forgot the most important standard and that was the personality and character of a dog. A good hunting dog with exceptional personalty was still bred even if he/she had a slight fault because they were bred for a purpose other then looks. That was the real standard and when they started breeding for looks only it all went to hell. The Doberman's became highly unpredictable because the extreme narrowness of their head (which was not original breed standard) cannot accomodate the expansion of the brain when the dog is overly excited. The Rotty became a much to heavy dog because everybody wanted an intimidating looking dog and the broader the more powerful, however they could never do the job they were intended to do which was protection of an individual but back then the individual was riding a horse so they had to be able to keep up with that. Don't even get me started on all the teacup sizes it makes me so mad. The pugs got even squshier faces hence the high pressure on their eyeballs. Now the standard refers mainly to visual attributes which is a shame. We bred the dog out of the dog. By the way, one of the now most thought after breeds used to be culling material. A white shepard pup used to be culled because it wasn't desireable. They grey Greyhound was considered unlucky. These issues are no different in cats but the bad side effects of breeding for looks showed alot sooner in the extreme siamese breed. The cats were bred for the extreme narrow heads and built and they became really nasty and unpredictable (like dobbies not enough room for the brain to expand) so after several years of the breed getting a bad name the majority of breeders deceided to do the right thing and reintroduce one of the three lines of cats that made up a real siamese. They reintroduced the the burmese breedline (which also creates the applehead siamese) to get back to what a siamese cat was supposed to look like namely a sphinx and not like an anorexic snake. The famous "Seabiscuit" was the complete opposite of the standard race horse. The famous "Manhattan" (german shep who won more Westminster Best in Show then any other dog) was found tied up to a fence as a pup and was extremely malnourished (doubt somebody did that to their $20,000 show quality pup). How many of us have our standards (requirements)? Some guys like blonds, some women like tall and dark, some men like skinny...some women prefer hulk but how many people do you know who say I fell in love with a person who fits my mental picture of the perfect person and how many do you know that say he/she was totally not my type but we fell madly in love. So take the time.. look into a dogs/cats/any animals eyes, connect and feel the soul. If it all comes together you found your perfect dog.   Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 748 Registered: 5-2004 Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 5:15 pm:        We did check out the JAC today - first visit. There is a litter of adorable tiny black kittens that will be ready to adopt in several weeks. There are also a lot of feral cats that were taken in for spaying/neutering that they can't socialize and will probably have to release. There are also a lot of dogs rescued from kill shelters. I feel a bit selfish for not saving a dog from the shelter, but the woman who showed us around was very candid that several of the animals have socialization issues, including biting, and need a lot of training. I just don't think I could trust a dog like that around my 5&6 year olds. They will be having new rescued puppies in tomorrow for adoption and we may go check them out, but we won't be getting a dog before June since we have plans to go away for a week. The JAC seems like a great place with the animals being very well-cared for and loved while they are there! My daughter now wants to work to help save animals when she grows up, and I'm sure we'll start to include the JAC in our annual contributions!   Judi W. Citizen Username: Judiwein Post Number: 29 Registered: 7-2005 Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 5:45 pm:        Pdg - We adopted two sister 4 month old pups from the JAC a couple of months ago. They are lab-terrior mixes and absolutely adorable. One looks like a lab and the other a terrior. Without a doubt they are the easiest going, best dogs we have ever had. They're completing their training next week at St. Huberts and except for needing add'l time spent learning to walk "properly" on a leash (our fault in not spending enough time on this, rather than the puppies problem), they are socialized and well behaved dogs. Contrast this to our last (also wonderful)golden retriever who flunked out of group training, needed $1000 of personal training and took 3 full years to become civilized. Before that we had a true hairy mutt that was about a year old when we got him from a shelter. He definitely had issues because he had been abused prior to us adopting him. So every dog is different and even with careful planning and trying to pick the perfect dog, you never quite know what a dog will be like until you bring him home.   dOd Citizen Username: Dod Post Number: 55 Registered: 5-2004 Posted on Saturday, April 1, 2006 - 9:14 am:        Hi Bajou, impressive credentials. No doubt you can point out the paper that identifies which breeds have "hollow bones." Thanks for clarifying what "cull" means. In this politically age it can also mean, "separate from breeding stock" but I'm old school and think that less than desirable dogs should be put down. I think you're really confused about what constitutes good dog breeding. "Personality" as you call it, is not factor unless one is breeding for dinner companions or perhaps dogs to sit beside on long flights. Temperament, however, (the dog's ability to perform the task for which it was intended) is vitally important and easily lost in today’s poorly bred canine. I guarantee you that a hunting dog possessing a personality worthy of the Alqonquin Round Table would not be bred by a hunter if he didn't possess the temperament to hunt. The "livability" of the animal should be way down on the list of traits to encourage and promote. In fact, a strong argument can be made that many breeds should possess a poor personality to maintain proper temperament. Do you have a study that shows a dog's brain expands when excited? Is it cerebral edema you're thinking of? From excitement? The problematic Dobes of the 70s were not due to narrow heads, but over breeding and the cessation of any measurable working standard other than how much the litter will fetch in the open market. Much like the German Shepherds in the 60s, Pit Bulls in the 80s (a breed screwed over by the HSUS), Rottweilers in the 90s and rare molossers in the last 6 years or so. While I agree that the breeding for looks solely is a detriment, to me that is rolled into the larger problem of taking strong functional working dogs and turning them into pets. That said, I’m a little confused on why you would bring up Covy-Tucker Hill's Manhattan. That dog, while winning many shows was a poor example of a German Shepherd and a perfect example of your contention that breeding for looks destroys breeds. Other than a few CDs and beginning herding tests, that breeder’s dogs simply can’t do the work of the German Shepherd. I appreciate your advice about looking into a dog’s “soul”, but I would prefer a person look into their own soul and honestly ask themselves if they’re up to the responsibility of owning and maintaining a breed of dog. dOd   Jennifer Grogan Citizen Username: Girlnovelist Post Number: 46 Registered: 3-2004 Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 8:06 am:        PDG .. Yikes! I tried to send a private message twice this weekend and it didn't work. If you are still interested in breeder information, send me a Pl and I'll respond. Not sure what I'm doing wrong! Best, Jen   doulamomma Citizen Username: Doulamomma Post Number: 1317 Registered: 3-2002 Posted on Monday, April 3, 2006 - 8:53 am:        Pdg, I responded to your PL - hope you got it