| Author |
Message |
    
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 6618
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 4:29 pm: |     |
OK - I know that there are Apple fanatics out there and I confess that it sounds appealing.
I have a desktop. I have a wireless router (which I use for my work laptop). I would like to get a cheap laptop so that I can play on the web from any room in my house.
(TS said "great - MOL in bed"). But, the laptop is her idea.
So, what can I get for as little $$$ as possible? If I were to get an Apple, is it compatible with my Windows-based PC?
Someone had posted a website about a year ago that had daily specials where tech inventory gets dumped for insanely low prices. Can anyone remember which site that is?
Thanks. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12035
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 4:37 pm: | |
You can probably put together an old laptop for almost free, but of course, it's a time/money tradeoff. If you don't buy new, it's going to cost you some time, for sure.
Until last year, for the past several years, Apple computers have used a processor called the PowerPC, which is an ironic name, because Apple distinguishes itself from the class of computers called PC. The PowerPC has a totally different instruction set from that of the Intel Pentium class. But that may not matter. It means you can't take software built for one and run it on the other. However, software makers often create their software to run on both platforms. And when they do so, the files that their software (e.g. MS Word) create are compatible. This means that a Word file created on one type of computer can be read and modified by the other type of computer.
To further complicate things, Apple started shipping computers with Intel chips, but they are not software compatible, at least not yet. This change means little to the average consumer so far. It may mean she/he will get more bang for the buck, though.
Of course, web browsers are available for all types of computers, so you can play on the web on any type.
If you can nail down a spending limit, we might be able to give you an idea of what you can get.
New Apple ibooks are $1000 and up. Apples are not available at significant discounts anywhere, as far as I know.
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greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 6619
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 4:43 pm: | |
Well, I do want new. Looks like Apple is out. Am I dreaming to spend around $500, with a max of $800? |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12036
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 4:50 pm: | |
You may not be dreaming. I'll look around. But consider that this could replace your family computer, and consider that you'll get a lot of use out of it, not just web surfing. After considering those facts, can your budget increase? 
But I recommend against being too cheap, especially if buying new. You get what you pay for, and when you scrimp, you often get less than what you pay for.
|
peteglider
Citizen
Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 1737
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 4:50 pm: | |
Basic Dell laptop -- $100 rebate puts it at $499. Don't go crazy with the add ons and you're at your price point! /p
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=iB120T2&s= dhs
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JMF
Citizen
Username: Jmf
Post Number: 231
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 4:51 pm: | |
I am a huge mac fan... but I can't really recommend buying an iBook right now. It will die off soon. I am assuming it will also have a new look when they put the new chip in, so not only will your computer feel old in 3 years... It will look even older.
It is a G4, which Apple has moved on to the G5 and now the Intel macs... so it really is old technology with a few speed bumps here and there.
If I had to buy a Laptop today, hard to beat a dell inspiron B130. Upgrade the RAM to 512, and you can have it for $640 after a $100 rebate.
It is a fairly good deal. |
monster
Supporter
Username: Monster
Post Number: 1920
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 4:59 pm: | |
You could always buy a refurbished laptop from Apple, this is wha tthey have in stock right now, move fast if you want one.
Quote:Apple Certified Refurbished PowerBook G4 12-inch
Refurbished PowerBook 12-inch 1.5GHz Combo Drive
512MB DDR333 SDRAM
60GB Hard Drive
NVIDIA GeForce FX Go5200 (64MB DDR)
AirPort Extreme
Bluetooth 2.0 + Enhanced Data Rates
Learn More
• Save 27% off the original price
Original price: $1,499.00
Your price: $1,099.00
Estimated Ship:
Within 24 hours
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Refurbished PowerBook G4 1.33GHz/ 256MB/ 60GB/ SuperDrive/ AP Extreme Card/ E/ 12-inch/ Aluminum
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• Save 39% off the original price
Original price: $1,799.00
Your price: $1,099.00
Estimated Ship:
1-2 business days
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Refurbished PowerBook 12-inch 1.5GHz SuperDrive
512MB DDR333 SDRAM
80GB Hard Drive
NVIDIA GeForce FX Go5200 (64MB DDR)
AirPort Extreme
Bluetooth 2.0 + Enhanced Data Rates
Learn More
• Save 30% off the original price
Original price: $1,699.00
Your price: $1,199.00
Estimated Ship:
1-2 business days
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AppleCare Protection Plan for MacBook Pro/PowerBook (w/ or w/o Display)
extends the complimentary coverage on your PowerBook to three years of world-class support and service.
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Price: $349.00
Estimated Ship:
Within 24 hours
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Apple Certified Refurbished PowerBook G4 15-inch
Refurbished PowerBook G4 1.33GHz/ 256MB/ 60GB/ Combo/ AP Extreme Card/ GigE/ 15-inch TFT/ Aluminum
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• Save 36% off the original price
Original price: $1,999.00
Your price: $1,299.00
Estimated Ship:
1-2 business days
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Refurbished Powerbook 15-inch 1.5GHz Combo Drive
512MB DDR333 SDRAM
80GB Hard Drive
ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 (64 MB DDR)
AirPort Extreme
Bluetooth 2.0 + Enhanced Data Rates
Backlit keyboard
Learn More
• Save 31% off the original price
Original price: $1,999.00
Your price: $1,399.00
Estimated Ship:
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Refurbished PowerBook 15-inch 1.67GHz SuperDrive
512MB DDR333 SDRAM
80GB Hard Drive
ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 (64 MB DDR)
AirPort Extreme
Bluetooth 2.0 + Enhanced Data Rates
Backlit keyboard
Learn More
• Save 31% off the original price
Original price: $2,299.00
Your price: $1,599.00
Estimated Ship:
3-5 business days
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Refurbished PowerBook G4 15-inch 1.67GHz SuperDrive
512MB DDR2 PC2-4200 SDRAM
80GB Hard Drive
ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 (128MB DDR)
AirPort Extreme
Bluetooth 2.0+Enhanced Data Rates
Backlit keyboard
Scrolling Trackpad
Dual link DVI
Learn More
• Save 16% off the original price
Original price: $1,999.00
Your price: $1,699.00
Estimated Ship:
1-2 business days
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AppleCare Protection Plan for MacBook Pro/PowerBook (w/ or w/o Display)
extends the complimentary coverage on your PowerBook to three years of world-class support and service.
Learn More
Price: $349.00
Estimated Ship:
Within 24 hours
Free Shipping
Apple Certified Refurbished PowerBook G4 17-inch
Refurbished PowerBook G4 1.5GHz/ 512MB/ 80GB/ SuperDrive/ AP Extreme Card/ GigE/ 17-inch/ Aluminum
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• Save 40% off the original price
Original price: $2,799.00
Your price: $1,699.00
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Refurbished PowerBook G4 17-inch 1.67GHz SuperDrive
512MB DDR2 PC2-4200 SDRAM
120GB Hard Drive
ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 (128MB DDR)
AirPort Extreme
Bluetooth 2.0+Enhanced Data Rates
Backlit keyboard
Scrolling Trackpad
Dual link DVI
Learn More
• Save 15% off the original price
Original price: $2,499.00
Your price: $2,149.00
Estimated Ship:
2 weeks
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Refurbished PowerBook 17-inch 1.67GHz SuperDrive
512MB DDR333 SDRAM
100GB Hard Drive
ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 (128 MB DDR)
AirPort Extreme
Bluetooth 2.0 + Enhanced Data Rates
Backlit keyboard
Dual link DVI
Learn More
• Save 32% off the original price
Original price: $2,699.00
Your price: $1,849.00
Estimated Ship:
Within 24 hours
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Add
AppleCare Protection Plan for MacBook Pro/PowerBook (w/ or w/o Display)
extends the complimentary coverage on your PowerBook to three years of world-class support and service.
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Price: $349.00
Estimated Ship:
Within 24 hours
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|
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12037
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 5:01 pm: | |
Here is a refurbished laptop for $589. When I buy refurbished stuff from this company, it's as good as new. But I also recommend having 512 MB of RAM.
And here is one for $574.
|
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 6622
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 5:10 pm: | |
Oy. So, what software will I need, assuming PC? |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12038
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 5:14 pm: | |
To browse the web? A web browser. These laptops come with Windows, and IE comes with Windows. And then you can download Firefox or Opera (or both) for free if you want to.
|
monster
Supporter
Username: Monster
Post Number: 1921
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 5:19 pm: | |
Smalldog.com has a 12 inch iBook G4, 1.33 MHz, 512 MB of RAM, 40 gig hard drive, built in Airport card (wireless card), built in Bluetooth, and a combo CD-RW/DVD-ROM drive.
For $999, http://www.smalldog.com/product/35737
CDW has the same deal, http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=818575
I noticed that I forgot a link in my post above, the Apple Store had several versions of refurbed iBooks going into this past weekend, from $469 for a G3 900MHz iBook to $900 for the same one I mentioned above.
They are continuously updating
the refurb page, keep an eye on it.
Here's the link.
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore?family=SpecialDeals& siteID=NKa3hZyYoHA-cSB89SdpjmVV%2Fgw0m%2FqJDQ
|
kmk
Supporter
Username: Kmk
Post Number: 936
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 4:22 pm: | |
Does Woot! ever have lap-tops? |
monster
Supporter
Username: Monster
Post Number: 1929
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 4:47 pm: | |
Apple has iBooks back in the refurb section,
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/7200503/wo/MR6VA Sv2BoVZ2NWS8VJ2Zs951ab/0.SLID?mco=E60A57E5&nclm=SpecialDeals
Apple Certified Refurbished iBook G4 12-inch
Refurbished iBook G4 1.2GHz/ 256MB/ 30GB/ CD/ E/ 56K/ 12-inch TFT
Learn More
• Save 23% off the original price
Original price: $899.00
Your price: $699.00
Estimated Ship:
1-2 business days
Free Shipping
Add
Refurbished iBook 12-inch 1.33GHz Combo Drive
512MB memory (DDR333 SDRAM)
40GB Ultra ATA hard drive
ATI Mobility Radeon 9550 (32MB DDR video memory)
Built-in AirPort Extreme
Built-in Bluetooth 2.0+EDR
Scrolling Trackpad
Sudden Motion Sensor
Learn More
• Save 21% off the original price
Original price: $999.00
Your price: $799.00
Estimated Ship:
7-10 business days
Free Shipping
|
sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 2287
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 5:19 pm: | |
Greenetree the two websites that have those deals are:
www.slickdeals.net
and
www.digitaldeals.net
Last year I bought a Dell Inspiron 6000 machine using one of their $750 coupons. After selling my old ibook the net cost of the new Dell was around $550. The Dell was around $800. The specs were:
Inspiron 6000
Intel® Pentium® M Processor 730 (1.60 GHz/2MB Cache/533MHz FSB), Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Qty: 1
Unit Price: $1,583.00
Inspiron 6000D Intel® Pentium® M Processor 730 (1.60 GHz/2MB Cache/533MHz FSB)
TM16DN
[221-5488]
Display 15.4 inch WXGA LCD Panel
15XGA
[320-4266]
Memory 512MB DDR2 SDRAM 1 Dimm
512MB1D
[311-4738]
Video Card 64MB DDR ATI's MOBILITY™ RADEON X300 PCI Express x16 Graphics
64ATI
[320-3896]
Hard Drive 80GB Hard Drive
80GB
[341-2126]
Operating System Microsoft® Windows® XP Home
WHXP
[420-4766]
[463-2282]
[412-0689]
[420-4928]
[420-4830]
[412-0706]
Network Card Integrated 10/100 Network Card and Modem
INTNIC
[430-0493]
Adobe Software Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 6.0
ADOBER
[430-1048]
Combo/DVD+RW Drives 24X CD Burner/DVD Combo Drive
24COMBO
[313-3242]
[420-5111]
Wireless Networking Card Intel® PRO/Wireless 2915 Internal Wireless (802.11 a/b/g, 54Mbps)
IP2915
[430-1257]
Office Productivity Software (Pre-Installed) WordPerfect® 12 - Word processor only
ICOREL
[412-0714]
Security Software No Security Subscription
NS
[412-0755]
Digital Music Dell Jukebox - easy-to-use music player and CD burning software
MMBASE
[412-0741]
Battery 6-cell Lithium Ion Battery (53 WHr)
6BAT
[312-0277]
Limited Warranty, Services and Support Options 1Yr Ltd Warranty, 1Yr Mail-In Service, and 1Yr Technical Support
ST111RR
[950-3337]
[950-3550]
[950-9057]
[960-2780]
Dial-Up Internet Access 6 Months America Online Internet Access Included
AOLDHS
[412-0585]
[412-0625]
[420-3224]
[412-0687]
Digital Imaging Photo Album™ SE Basic
DPS
[412-0744]
Financial Software No QuickBooks package selected- Includes limited use trial
QBSSP
[420-5139
Monster - your avatar is one of my favorite children's characters. He's second only to SpongeBob in my son's eyes.
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Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 8473
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 5:38 pm: | |
If it's a question of a $200 difference in price, I'd go with the refurbished Apple. The years of worry free browsing (ie., no virii) is worth about $300-400, IMO. |
Eponymous
Citizen
Username: Eponymous
Post Number: 30
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 5:47 pm: | |
If you're looking for a basic machine to do simple stuff like web browsing and work processing, I wouldn't worry about anything you buy becoming obsolete within three years. If you're a Mac user, stick with it. I'd recommend the little 12" iBooks. Tiny and nice screens. Get at least 512megs of RAM, as has already been suggested. More is better. |
argon_smythe
Citizen
Username: Argon_smythe
Post Number: 735
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 9:10 pm: | |
If you just want to browse the web why would you pay the premium for a Mac? Get a cheap used Intel laptop and run Linux and Firefox on it. (And of course Avast! and Spybot S&D and Ad-Aware).
|
monster
Supporter
Username: Monster
Post Number: 1933
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 9:20 pm: | |
With a Mac she can do it in style, and be drug & disease free without even trying.... |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12075
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 9:43 pm: | |
Yeah, I was thinking, cheap is the order of the day for greenetree, but again, there's a money/time tradeoff. With Windows, there's all sorts of time you have to spend keeping the antivirus and antispy up to date. And all the troubleshooting and other mishegas. With Mac OS, there's a lot less. Linux is something to consider but not for the faint of heart. Windows is just not trouble free. Those who consider it to be so are underestimating the time they put in and the expertise they carry around.
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greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 6641
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 2:14 pm: | |
So, why are MACS so trouble-free? Don't you have to update the OS on occassion? What is the magical power? |
Eponymous
Citizen
Username: Eponymous
Post Number: 31
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 2:59 pm: | |
greenetree wrote, asking for trouble :
"So, why are MACS so trouble-free? Don't you have to update the OS on occassion? What is the magical power?"
No magic.
Apple has always been better than MS at writing solid software, including security concerns; the OS has always been a model of user-interfaces (even if some aren't thrilled with recent developments in OS X); there are virtually no viruses for OS X in the wild; and Apple controls both hardware and software, unlike MS, so mismatches are rarer and more quickly fixed.
As for upgrades, Apple handles these gracefully with the Software Update panel, which automatically alerts the user to available upgrades, and downloads and installs them too, if desired.
Most professionals who've worked in places with significant numbers of macs and windows boxes will tell you that the Macs are much, much easier to maintain and troubleshoot.
(Oh, and it's not an acronym, so "Mac" instead of "MAC". The latter actually exists as an acronym for "medium access control", a unique ID that every internet-enabling device has, including the ethernet card in a Mac. :-) See this: http://faq.arstechnica.com/link.php?i=863.) |
argon_smythe
Citizen
Username: Argon_smythe
Post Number: 738
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 4:12 pm: | |
I'm no fan of Windoze by any means, believe me, but MS does have an "automatic update" feature and this has been available for quite a while now.
I have W2K machines running with the basic config of Firefox browser, Avast antivirus, and the two spyware programs noted -- all are gratis -- and have never had a problem with viruses or spyware.
If you are REALLY only browsing the web, I still say the Mac is complete overkill and the decision to go that way is based on fear rather than fulfilling a real need.
Get a cheap machine and take a ghost image of it after you put what you want on it. Something goes terribly wrong just re-image the disk and you're back to a fresh build.
If you really want to do more with it than that, then maybe a Mac is the way to go. But some people are carrying around the Mac hammer, and every screw and bolt looks like a nail to them.
|
Eponymous
Citizen
Username: Eponymous
Post Number: 33
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 5:49 pm: | |
argon_smythe wrote:
"If you are REALLY only browsing the web, I still say the Mac is complete overkill and the decision to go that way is based on fear "
Why is it overkill? It's a computer. "Fear"?
As for your other analogy, this problem is a nail, and both Mac and wintel laptops are hammers.
More to the point, greenetree started the post by asking whether he should get a mac. Several of us have explained why we think that's a good idea.
"never had a problem with viruses or spyware"
You're lucky. Many wintel users are hit with viruses and spyware, even with precautions. No Mac users are.
Want to spend as little as possible up front? By all means, get a wintel laptop. No question that start-up costs are cheaper there. Most support people who work with both platforms will say that cost of ownership is much higher for Wintel. And frankly a laptop that will be moved around a lot and subject to lots of opening and closing is not the place to go cheap on parts, whatever platform you prefer.
Let's not turn this into a platform flame war. |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 8485
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 6:34 pm: | |
The real problem is if Greenetree gets a Mac, she and TS will always be fighting over who gets to use it. |
monster
Supporter
Username: Monster
Post Number: 1939
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:16 am: | |
TURF WAR...TURF WAR
Over the years I have become sick and tired of arguing over & over again about which is better, a Mac or a Windows based PC.
I use both, I maintain, administer, network, fix, and train on both platforms, I can say without a doubt that a Mac is far easier to use for most users (yeah-yeah, I know you know how to use a windows pc & can do whatever & figure out whatever you need to Mr. &/or Mrs. technocrat).
I've taken kids as young as 3 and adults older than 75 (in both age groups who have never used a computer before), and have trained them in the use of computers on both platforms, the Mac has always been the easiest to learn & the most problem free for them in the long run.
I've worked in environments that have had both Macs and Windows computers, those users that had/have Macs have service calls a lot (and I mean a lot) less frequently than those on Windows based computers.
Now what about the user interface, that's one of the reasons that Mac users love their Macs so much, that's one of the reasons that make it so easy for a completly new computer user to learn easily how to navigate and use the Mac and all it has to offer.
I've seen users who have gone from a Mac to a Windows PC and cry in utter frustration.
I have seen frustrated Windows users switch to using a Mac and cry with joy & relief, thanking me profusely for guiding them in into the Mac life.
Now I have to admit that both platforms will have problems, some more specific to one than the other, and yes of course there are users on both sides that just don't have a clue, but then again there are users who have a clue but just can't figure some things out, no matter what OS they are using.
As far as virus problems, worms, trojans, and spyware, I've never had a single issue with any of these on a Mac, of course at home I've never had an issue on my own Windows based computers either, but in my experience (heck, it's a fact) most Windows users can't say the same.
Just a note on this subject, Windows users, did you know that the BlackWorm worm is due to hit on Feb. 3rd, are your antivirus signatures up to date?
While this is relativley easy to remove, there are others that have, and will be harder to remove.
Here ia a quote on the BlackWorm worm,
http://isc.sans.org/diary.php?storyid=1067
Quote:About BlackWorm
Over the last week, "Blackworm" infected about 300,000 systems based on analysis of logs from the counter web site used by the worm to track itself. This worm is different and more serious than other worms for a number of reasons. In particular, it will overwrite a user's files on February 3rd.
At this point, the worm will be detected by up to date anti virus signatures. In order to protect yourself from data loss on February 3rd, you should use current (Jan 23rd or later) anti virus signatures. Note, however, that the malware attempts to disable/remove any anti-virus software on the system (and does this every hour while the system is up), so if the machine was infected before signatures were deployed, obviously, that anti-virus software can't be expected to clean up the infection for you.
The following file types will be overwritten by the virus: DOC, XLS, MDE, MDB, PPT, PPS, RAR, PDF, PSD, DMP, ZIP. The files are overwritten with an error message( 'DATA Error [47 0F 94 93 F4 K5]').
We will try to post more detailed cleanup instructions later. However, it is likely that you will have to rebuild the system from scratch. Obtaining good backups is critical as a first step.
The first thing you should do is to update your anti virus signatures.
This page will be updated as new information becomes available. Please see the end of the page for references to other sites. Use only this url to link to this page: http://isc.sans.org/blackworm
Naming
As usual, this worm/virus has collected a number of names from various vendors. It is so far known as: Blackmal, Nyxem, MyWife, Tearec among other names. Update: we have been informed that the CME number will be 'CME-24'. cme.mitre.org should shortly list this number.
How would I get infected?
The worm spreads via e-mail attachments or file shares. Once a system in your network is infected, it will try to infect all shared file systems it has access to. You may see a new "zip file" icon on your desktop.
What will BlackWorm do to my system?
It will disable most anti virus products and delete them. The worm will e-mail itself using a variety of extensions and file names. It will add itself to the list of auto-start programs in your registry.
Removal
Anti virus vendors offer removal tools. Microsoft provides detailed instructions for manual removal. However, there are two important reasons to rebuild "from scratch":
1. BlackWorm uses the same tricks to install itself as other viruses/worms. It may not be the only one on your system. Antivirus will not detect all viruses, and the removal tool will only remove this specific worm.
2. BlackWorm will allow remote access to your system, and additional malware may have been installed via this backdoor.
here is a quote on the subject concerning Macs
Quote:.
 |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12102
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:32 am: | |
I have 21 years of professional experience as an IT guy. One of our concerns is "cost of ownership" which includes labor cost of maintenance. Tinkering is a cost, though often a hidden one. It's more easily hidden in a small business or the home. Sometimes, it is manifested as aggravation.
In large installations, such as I have worked at, the costs are palpable. I ran a network of hundreds of unix workstations. Unix is an operating system that is neither Windows nor Mac OS, even though Mac OS is now built on unix. Because unix has such good remote control abilities, my cow-orkers and I could maintain and standardize computers at a far lower ratio of administrators to computers or administrators to users. We boasted ratios that Windows administrators can't fathom.
All of that is to say that I know cost of ownership.
I see four factors in the superiority of Apple computers.
1. there is less hardware diversity. Apple has no direct competition, so they are less price driven than other vendors. This allows them to use higher quality components and continue to use component suppliers for longer periods.
2. There is a culture of higher quality software that is unrelated to the operating system. People who write software for the Mac simply hold themselves to higher standards. They test the crap out of their stuff before shipping it.
3. The user interface is more intuitive and requires fewer steps to do most common things.
4. It's more reliable because of various technical details of unix I won't describe. One manifestation is that Mac OS and other unix systems don't require frequent reboots. My home Apple has been up for nine days. The unix server which houses my mail, which is not in my home, and which provides mail and other services for several people, has not been rebooted since August of 2003. In other words, it has been running continuously without even rebooting for two and a half years. Take that, Bill Gates!
I get the point that $800 is overkill for something to read MOL on the couch while TS watches TV. But at some point, you want the darned thing to "just work" and a computer that runs Windows requires more care and feeding. And we're back to a time/money tradeoff or an aggravation/money tradeoff. I think some Windows laptop is really fine for the job, but I want to offer the facts. The Windows laptop may make greenetree happy, but chances are the Apple will make her happier.
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argon_smythe
Citizen
Username: Argon_smythe
Post Number: 741
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 9:16 pm: | |
Guys, come on, we're literally talking just a browser here. Something to run a browser on. Like almost no processing power necessary, hardly any disk space, almost no real functionality on the computer itself is needed. The subject of "which OS" is completely pointless, is my point. Go for the cheap, is my point, because in this case nothing else matters, all that elegance is wasted. You're literally paying for something you're not going to use.
Anyway I said Linux first, not Windoze. I only mentioned Windoze because somebody implied "only" the Mac has an automatic updating feature. I don't like Windoze and I said that too, but come on, fair is fair, they have an auto update feature.
This is not a turf war at all. I simply think all the elegance that the Mac may have, is pointless when all the person is going to do is open up a stinking browser window and look at web pages which are going to look and behave exactly the same on whatever computer she picks.
I'm not the one throwing a bunch of red herrings into the mix. Open laptop... open browser... type in URL. What OS am I running? What kind of CPU is it? Who cares! It runs a browser and it has a wireless card stuck in it (wireless-b, too, please).
My suggestion was not Windows. It was Linux, Firefox, Avast!, Spybot S&D, Ad-Aware. This was a mistake as you can't use the free Avast! on Linux.
It doesn't matter much though as Linux is just as "immune" from viruses as Mac OS is... for the same reason: the UNIX kernel, which creates a hostile environment for virus propogation. It's not worth writing a virus on a unix platform because they don't spread well. This is the real reason Windoze is the target... not because they're the biggest, or most hated... the OS is simply more vulnerable to exploitation than a UNIX-based OS like Linux and MacOS.
Anyway you get a pretty old intel-based laptop and you put Linux on it and Firefox, image the disk, don't install anything else because you're not using this computer for anything else but browsing. I guarantee you nothing will go wrong. Guarantee. The whole thing for less than $100, will work for years.
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12124
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 9:48 pm: | |
OK, you're right. We're getting worked up about almost nothing. Pretty much anything will do for this task.
Greenetree, are you swooning over how all of us are putting so much energy into helping you?
But you're wrong about viruses. It's not hard to write malware for unix or linux. The big internet worm of 1988 ran only on unix systems. Windows gets hit the most, and that's mostly because it's the biggest target. Sure, there are technical flaws that make it vulnerable, but a malware writer doesn't need lots of holes to get in. He only needs one. And unix has more than zero holes.
By the way, I've been playing with Ubuntu Linux. It's the most user-friendly Linux I've ever seen. It's almost turnkey. This is very promising.
I guess one reason I got carried away with my Mac advocacy -- and I've said this already -- is that if greenetree stretches the purpose of the laptop to be beyond web browsing on the couch, she might get more satisfaction out of something more capable and stable. But that notion is already taking a liberty with greenetree's original request.
"This is the only thing my signature says." |
Eponymous
Citizen
Username: Eponymous
Post Number: 39
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 10:41 pm: | |
argon_smythe wrote:
"Guys, come on, we're literally talking just a browser here. Something to run a browser on. Like almost no processing power necessary, hardly any disk space, almost no real functionality on the computer itself is needed. The subject of "which OS" is completely pointless, is my point."
Well, I think a bunch of us would disagree. As long as the computer is working fine, few care. But when things go wrong, then it matters a lot. And Wintel machines go wrong a lot more than Macs (and Linux boxes too, I'll bet). To make the following statement is just irresponsible, IMO:
" I guarantee you nothing will go wrong. Guarantee. The whole thing for less than $100, will work for years."
Things break. Software has bugs. Harddrives crash. Websites and emails contain malicious code. No computer is immune from problems, even my iBook. 
We have also mentioned elegance, as you say, but more importantly Macs' freedom from viruses and spyware.
"Anyway I said Linux first, not Windoze. I only mentioned Windoze because somebody implied "only" the Mac has an automatic updating feature."
Well, I was that somebody, and I don't think I implied that at all. If you re-read the thread, you'll see that I just said that the Mac had auto-update in direct response to greenetree's question "Don't you have to update the OS on occassion?" |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 6649
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 5:03 pm: | |
Oy! Such passion, such loyalty! If you give even half this much to your spouses, they are very lucky people!
Most PCs come loaded with Windows. How does one get another operating system? Download? Purchase? I feel so helpless here.
I must admit that I am tempted to go MAC just not to be bothered, but it does seem silly to spend more money to save myself from having to keep up Spyware, viruses, etc.
Oh, we are currently (OK - not "we" a dear Angel who works for food) is cleaning up our old PC. Seems it is short of current required memory and my dear brother did me a "favor" a year ago and loaded Service Pack 2, which is incompatible. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12151
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 7:51 pm: | |
I surely am this passionate with my wife, or at least with configuring her computer.
You get more benefits with a Mac than just less virus and spyware vulnerability. The user interfaces are so much better that you spend less time figuring stuff out and tinkering and tuning. It's hard to emphasize this, because until you stop doing it, you don't realize how much time you've been spending on it.
Virtually all PC's come bundled with Windows which includes the purchase of a Windows license. There are a few PC's available without Windows -- very few. So if you're sure you'll run Linux, you have to hunt around for a Windows-less PC, or you ditch Windows and eat the cost of the license. Or you buy a used PC.
Most versions of Linux are free, and it's not worth it -- FOR YOU -- to pay for the paid versions. I think Ubuntu Linux is very easy to use, though I admit I haven't messed with it all that much yet.
Again, let me emphasize that while I think you get more for your money with a Mac, you would not be making a mistake by buying a PC, either. I just want you to know the tradeoff you're making. If you want personal help choosing a computer and operating system, let me know. No charge, except for some tea or cookies and company.
"This is the only thing my signature says." |
monster
Supporter
Username: Monster
Post Number: 1964
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 9:21 pm: | |
Maybe we should have a "Get To Know Mac" class.... |
argon_smythe
Citizen
Username: Argon_smythe
Post Number: 749
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 11:58 am: | |
My overriding philosophy here, in case you hadn't guessed, is that people tend to tremendously overbuy when buying computers.
Eponymous -- yes hardware failures happen and they happen even to Macs. In fact some models have had persistent overheating problems recently due to inadequate chassis ventilation. A - gasp - design flaw.
Remember I said to image the HD. Well this is good advice for anyone but again, you're using this just for browsing and you're not keeping important docs on it, etc. That image therefore can stay relatively static. Your HD fails you get a new one and re-burn the image. You're back in business. It does not take a rocket scientist to back up and restore a HD. Any HD can die including one in a Mac. Drop a Mac and a PC down the steps they're both going to be about in the same shape. So much for hardware failures.
As for "PCs come loaded with windows..." remember we're talking about buying a used machine here. Even if I bought a used machine with an OS pre-loaded, there's no way I wouldn't re-install it to start from scratch. That includes a Mac.
Tom, again regarding the elegance of the Mac's user interface... it's only relevant if this machine is to do more than the stated purpose of browsing the web. If not then the interface is pretty much identical regardless of OS, hardware, etc.
It is probably true, if you go the el-cheapo route, you will pretty much be guaranteed to never use the machine beyond its intended purpose. And a computer is, ultimately, a multi-purpose machine. Therefore some amount of over-buying probably makes sense... just like you'll fill up whatever size hard drive you buy, so you'll probably expand into the capabilities of the computer you buy.
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Hillsider
Supporter
Username: Hillsider
Post Number: 47
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 3:24 pm: | |
Don't listen to the Mac zealots...
For browsing, buy the cheapest laptop and you are set... it will probably be a Windows machine...
The buying decision and experience should be the same as that of buying any other appliance or a car, don't buy a Viking Range if all you are eating is takeout and don't invest in a Lexus when all you do is travel NJTransit...
Use the money you save to buy a better pillow so that reading MOL in bed is even more enjoyable...
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greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 6665
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 5:14 pm: | |
So I want a Hyundai? With fabric seating and no heating package?
New wrinkle - my employer provides a wireless card so that we can use our laptops anywhere but doesn't support it for installation. OK.
Get it installed and then have to call the Helpless Desk to have it configured with IBM Access so that it can work in our office building.
OK.
I am told that my Cisco card is passe and that I need to use the IBM Access, which I now have to reconfigure for home wireless use.
They don't support that, either.
I really hate these people. |
kmk
Supporter
Username: Kmk
Post Number: 947
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 6:48 pm: | |
CompUSA had an ad for a $399 Compaq (HP)laptop advertised this weekend.
I have a very similar one for our kids - damn good deal. |
upondaroof
Citizen
Username: Upondaroof
Post Number: 544
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 8:00 pm: | |
This might help you to decide! http://www.dumpalink.com/media/1137683440/Never_Get_A_Mac |
monster
Supporter
Username: Monster
Post Number: 1975
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 8:26 pm: | |
you do realize that that was made on Mac, it's a parody by the Happy Nowhere comedy troupe, the guy in the video is a proud Mac user.
Here's the page on their site about the video, http://www.happynowhere.net/mac_parody.php
and of course this is their front page, http://www.happynowhere.net/ |
upondaroof
Citizen
Username: Upondaroof
Post Number: 545
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 8:47 pm: | |
"you do realize that that was made on Mac,"
Uhhhhh.. Yeah! I did watch it to the end before posting. I only threw it into the mix to lighten it up. |
Brett Sahler
Citizen
Username: Brettsahler
Post Number: 34
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 9:33 pm: | |
Very reliable company....http://www.smalldog.com sells refurbished Macintosh computers....as well as new ones. I have been buying products from them since 1999...never had a problem. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12277
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 5:37 pm: | |
Hey, check it out. Working laptops for as little as $199.
http://www.geeks.com/products.asp?cat=NBB
"mem's signature is trendier than mine." |
monster
Supporter
Username: Monster
Post Number: 1991
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 7:28 pm: | |
+++ gif +++ 101695 +++ +++ |
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