| Author | Message | ||
     Bailey Citizen Username: Baileymac Post Number: 211 Registered: 3-2005 |
Did you Mac fans out there see this? "Apple posted a new product called "Boot Camp" Beta which will come standard with Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard). The new software allows users to dual-boot Mac OS X and Windows XP on the new Intel Macs. Wow It's available in Beta now. | ||
| Monster© Supporter Username: Monster Post Number: 2735 Registered: 7-2002  |
At the moment this sounds better, http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?newsID=5712&pagtype=all
Parallels website http://www.parallels.com/en/products/workstation/ As it stands now with Apples answer, you have to boot one or the other, without the option of using both at one time, of course that may change. Another great article on the subject, http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/9139/ BootCamp Public Beta can be found here, http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/ of course it's for Intel based Macs only | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9127 Registered: 4-1997  |
Even cooler is http://darwine.opendarwin.org/ | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1906 Registered: 3-2004  |
i downloaded it and am loving it! apple rules. kiss the PC goodbye! | ||
| JMF Citizen Username: Jmf Post Number: 257 Registered: 9-2004 |
Apple stock up almost 10% on the news! woo hoo... | ||
| LazyDog Citizen Username: Lazydog Post Number: 227 Registered: 6-2005  |
In passing, it was mentioned to me that Apple will not support Boot Camp (yet). Use at your own risk | ||
| Eponymous Citizen Username: Eponymous Post Number: 171 Registered: 6-2004 |
LazyDog, It's a beta. 'Nuff said. | ||
| LazyDog Citizen Username: Lazydog Post Number: 230 Registered: 6-2005 |
Ah Ha ! | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1594 Registered: 10-2004 |
Yeah, my initial reaction to this is WOW!!! That's cool. My next reaction is just like everyone else here that it would be better if both environments could run simulaneously. But what I do like A LOT is that Wall Street thinks it bodes well for Apples future. That makes me happy. | ||
| TomD Citizen Username: Tomd Post Number: 398 Registered: 5-2005  |
Color me confused. Apple devotees dump endless venom on anything Windows-related and then jump for joy at the opportunity to run Windows on more expensive hardware with an Apple logo? I'm old enough to have used OS/2 and I remember the OS/2 devotees being ever so delighted to tell you that OS/2 was great because it could run Windows applications! Wow. Amazing, I thought. An operating system that can run Windows applications...kind of like, say...Windows. Monster is correct, the only interesting way to do this stuff is through virtualization. One PC with a base OS of...anything (probably linux though) and virtualization software to run Windows and Mac (and OS/2 and Windows98 and BeOS and Amiga...). Unfortunately, vitualization requires a lot of overhead (CPU and disk and memory) so the machine that just has one OS is always going to be faster. I suppose this is appealing to Mac users because of the simple fact that there is more software available for Windows and there is a lot of software that is only available for Windows (as opposed to the small amount of software only available for Macs). Now if you reverse everything, even if I could run Mac OS on my PC (what are they up to Tiger? Llama? Jackalope?), I don't see any compelling reason to do so (other than a feeling of self satisfaction). A Mac running Windows reminds me Tofurkey--you know, tofu made to look like a turkey. I don't recall ever hearing of Butterball ever trying to make a turkey look like a block of tofu and I don't recall Microsoft trying to figure out how to let people run Mac application on a Windows PC. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1665 Registered: 10-2004 |
TomD: I don't actually feel like your post is worthy of my energy. It is clear to anyone with half a brain on why this is useful. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13565 Registered: 1-2003  |
Are you serious, Alleygater? TomD, yes, some people want to run some applications that are available only on Windows. If we were not so emotional, that's how we'd choose our OS's, i.e. we would choose our applications and then see what OS they required. Also, some software runs better on Windows than other platforms because the developer did a better job on the Windows version. That's because they have more customers using it, so they get more feedback and testing there. But the OS itself is an experience, too, and MacOS is generally more pleasant. The user interface is more intuitive and more attractive. (Of course, these are subjective judgements, but look at the experience of people who switch in both directions.) Mac OS is also more reliable and secure. So there are reasons to prefer Mac OS. There are a few apps which are available on Mac OS only, and for all I know, there are probably a few whose Mac versions are better than the Windows versions, but I don't really know. | ||
| Bailey Citizen Username: Baileymac Post Number: 230 Registered: 3-2005 |
Every review I've read has said the Mac OS version of Microsoft Office is better than the Windows version. Go figure. | ||
| TomD Citizen Username: Tomd Post Number: 399 Registered: 5-2005 |
Certainly. As I said, if one has a Mac and wants to run Windows applications then Boot Camp is better than having to buy an additional computer. My reaction was to some of the coverage I saw of this (e.g., digg.com) where people were absolutely ga-ga over the idea that now all hardware could be mac hardware. My observation was simply that there appears to be a far greater need for Macs to run Windows software than the reverse. And I find it kind of personally amusing to tease people who see a computer OS (of all things) as some kind of social, political or fashion statement. As far as I'm concerned, an OS is just a tool, like a hammer--and I just want it to drive nails. I wonder if there's a chance that I'm not alone in my opinion? | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1671 Registered: 10-2004 |
Tom R. -- I sincerely think that TomD's post was meant to rile people like me up. Take a look at his most recent post where he mentions teasing people. I unfortunately don't have the time or emotional fortitude to be as polite as you with a well thought out reply. I didn't feel that his post warranted it. TomD's second post at least offers some things worthy of replying to. If he would have started with that tone to begin with I might not have been so rude or terse. As for people on Slashdot's opinion. I think you will find that while a lot of those people (most of which are more technically minded and argumentative nerdy types) are interested and critical in what Apple is doing (most because of the Unix underpinings of OSX). But if you do a search on Microsoft or Windows on the slashdot site that you will find that they are pretty much UNIVERSALLY HATED by Slashdot users for a whole slew of reasons. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13571 Registered: 1-2003 |
I don't read TomD that way, Alleygater. He seems even-tempered to me, so I give him the benefit of the doubt. I find it costs me too much energy to give people the detriment of the doubt, to coin a term. | ||
| TomD Citizen Username: Tomd Post Number: 401 Registered: 5-2005 |
In all seriousness (and not simply to rile up Mac users), I honestly think that in Boot Camp, we're seeing the early signs of Apple getting out of the OS business. Ten or fiften years from now, I don't think Apple will still be selling an OS. I think that they will either drop or, more likely, spin or sell off the computer business in favor of media, distribution and consumer elctronics. In an imediate sense, if you own a Mac and want to run Windows apps, Boot Camp makes your life better because you can run software you couldn't run before, but think about the other implications. Boot Camp makes it really easy for software developers to justify not bothering to make new software designed specifically for the Mac. This was one of the same things that killed OS/2. Software developers (to a large extent) didn't make OS/2 software becuase they could sell more units of Windows software and, hey, OS/2 users could run the Windows version. If you are a game developer and you are pouring millions into producing Warcraft (or something), it becomes very hard to justify spending more money to produce a mac version when you can spend that money on the Windows version knowing that all of the mac users will be able to run it. Mac OS has, as we all know, Unix under the covers and I think that over the long term, Mac OS will become another unix alternative, especially as other linux distros continue to get better and easier. Linux isn't just taking users away from Windows, it is taking users away from Macs as well. The difference is that Windows can afford to lose those users and I don't believe that Apple can. Apple, to their credit, recognized the futility of continuing to maintain pure Apple hardware when they moved mac OS onto Intel hardware. Now, if Apple took their OS and made it possible to install it on a PC instead of Windows or linux, then the mac os might have a new life, especially if they offered true virtualization and not multi-boot. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9200 Registered: 4-1997 |
Apple will always sell an OS. If they didn't they'd cease being Apple. In many ways, the OS is really their only product. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1687 Registered: 10-2004 |
Dave they make all their money on Hardware (ipods and computers) | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9201 Registered: 4-1997 |
Which very few people would buy without the OS. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 585 Registered: 7-2005  |
Apple also holds the quicktime format and the Final Cut series. They make a load of money on professional products. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1688 Registered: 10-2004 |
Tom, I've used Windows A LOT. I HATED IT! I think you are insane if you think that Mac users want to be using Windows. It really is a terrible OS. I also don't think that Mac OS is losing people to Linux, I have no idea where you got that from. I think that Apple's hardware is really good. But if Apple only made computer hardware and you could ONLY get it with Windows OS, I doubt I would buy their computers because they are more expensive when compared to other computer manufacturers part for part. So if you do a side by side comparison and the comparison is Apples to Apples, I think Apple loses. As it is now, the comparison isn't Apples to Apples though. More like Apples to Oranges. Apple has convinced me that the things I can do with my high quality hardware are well designed, well thought out, easy to use and well worth the extra money. If I could skimp and buy a cheaper machine I would, but as it is now with no hardare competitors, I can't. It really is the integration of the hardware and software that makes the Mac a compelling buy. PC users who are used to Windows and Linux who can pick and choose their hardware probably wouldn't get this. Also TomD, you need to forgive me for my lack of patience on these type of matters. Us Apple folk have been hearing how Apple was going to swallowed up and devoured by every company every year since the beginning. And every year Apple grows. When will the PC users finally shut up about the death of Apple?!? | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1689 Registered: 10-2004 |
Glock, I agree that those softwares products are industry standards and may earn money (I'm not sure however), but the amounts of money they make on them is miniscule compared to the hardware. Apple makes great software solutions (or buys them -- like Audio Units) so that people will buy Apple hardware and to fill up the gaps where there is software that is lacking. | ||
| Spare_o Supporter Username: Spare_o Post Number: 397 Registered: 9-2003 |
What appears to be a comprehensive review of Boot Camp http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1947614,00.asp | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 587 Registered: 7-2005 |
Hah Alley, I've been using Windows since 3.0 and LOVE IT (although I'm on a powerbook right now) except when the bastages can't find driverloadx12340093882100.dll at 3AM in the morning right before your final thesis paper is due. | ||
| TomD Citizen Username: Tomd Post Number: 402 Registered: 5-2005 |
I never predicted the death of Apple as a company and I don't think any of this is about who makes the best OS. It also isn't about where users would prefer to use their software, it's about the companies that make software. If I own a development company, I have a finite amount of time and money to put into my product. Given the choice between making (and supporting) 1. a very good Mac OS version and a very good Windows version or 2. making a great Windows-only version, I'm probably going to make the Windows-only version because (now especially) I know that the Mac community can run that version as well. It is largely because of Apple's strength in hardware that I think they should plan on (over 10-15 years) getting out of the commodity PC market and moving into other, better margin hardware products--ipods, cell phones, set-top boxes, handhelds (Newton notwithstanding) as well as media and distribution. I realize that to the hardcore, long time Apple folk, it's like I'm advocating that the catholics get out of the jesus business and won't consider the possibility. As for linux, the distros keep getting better and, for example, there's a Mac install of Ubuntu because people are using it. The real difference between Macs and Windows servers/pcs today is that it isn't possible to get rid of windows in the corporate world. It is so ingrained into corporate IT that it would take at least a decade to get it out (in most large companies). Someone, I'm sure, just said, "Nonsense! We could get rid of Windows in 3-5 years." Fine, you probably could--as long as you didn't do anything else. And what business can or would sideline itself to do such a thing? What I'm actually saying here is that in the future Apple can do better things than making operating systems, especially as gap between the mac OS and other OS's continues to narrow over time. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1697 Registered: 10-2004 |
TomD: I think Apple should listen to your advice. You seem to have all the answers. Are you even a Mac user? I think what you aren't hearing from everyone here on MOL is that Apple's hardware is good but it's nothing (or very little) without it's software. It's the combination and interaction of both that makes it a value rather than an added expense. To make my point about Linux stealing Mac users, I ask you, WTF is Ubuntu? I don't care that much about Macs in the corporate environment. Apple has been doing just fine (don't get me wrong they can always do better) with out a serious foot hold in the corp. world. You say that you aren't declaring the death of Apple and yet you say audacious bushwah like, "I think they should plan on (over 10-15 years) getting out of the commodity PC market and moving into other, better margin hardware products--ipods, cell phones, set-top boxes, handhelds (Newton notwithstanding) as well as media and distribution." Every business would like to diversify if they can. Apple is already doing that, and creating new markets for itself. Better than very many computer companies. But why should they eliminate their computer business when it is still unbelievably profitable and a HUGE segment of their profits. What you are stating is essentially the end of Apple, but you then feign ignorance that you even stated it. Glock, different strokes for different folks. I never told you to switch. Keep doing what your doing. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2862 Registered: 5-2004  |
Apple Discussion Board Users List Boot Camp Woes http://www.crn.com/nl/crndailynews/showArticle.jhtml?articleId=185300625 Apple Computer's new software for installing Windows XP on an Intel Mac could leave the computer unable to boot back into OS X, users reported. Under the topic "Boot Camp hosed my OS X partition," about a dozen users on an Apple discussion board shared experiences and possible solutions. Worst case scenario involved reformatting the Mac hard drive. In installing Boot Camp, the hard drive is partitioned for OS X and XP. Installing the latter went without a hitch, but the machine would no longer boot back to the Mac operating system, according to users. Instead, they received error messages indicating the problem could be related to the partitioning. "XP installed perfectly, including the enormous number of updates, but it hosed my OS X partition," a poster, identified only as Gary from Minneapolis, said. Apple on Tuesday said it was looking into the problem and would have an official response later. Despite the reported problems, other users have said that Boot Camp, which was released in beta last week, has worked smoothly, enabling the machines to run Windows applications at performance levels to comparable PCs. | ||
| TomD Citizen Username: Tomd Post Number: 403 Registered: 5-2005 |
I'm not feigning ignorance here and I'm also not getting emotional, angry or snippy about something as trivial as a computer operating system. I was discussing a company's strategy over a long period, 10-15 years. And I was speculating about ending an OS--not a company. Unless you believe that Apple = Mac OS and it must always be so. 15 years is half as long as the company has existed--a lot is going to change over that time. Time will tell. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1700 Registered: 10-2004 |
Yes, but you make it out that Apple must do this in order to survive. As if you know best. I wasn't sure if you answered the question of "are you a mac user". Did you? | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13604 Registered: 1-2003 |
Alleygater, I think you are being unkind, and I don't know why. TomD's arguments are well reasoned, even if you don't agree with them. In particular, the OS/2 story is a telling one. Are you familiar with that? When you ask what Ubuntu is, is it because you don't know, or because you consider it insignificant? It's a distribution of Linux that is very easy to use, almost turnkey. It's not as easy to use as Mac OS but it's a big improvement over other versions of Linux. I immediately thought about how Apple may have shot itself in the foot by deciding to use Intel processors. This will make the benefit of both their OS and their hardware less discernible for Joe Average, though it won't make their products any worse. Perception is nearly everything. It is NOT true that if you build a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door. Rather, all you have to do is market it as the best. At this point, as TomD points out, software makers have less incentive to port their applications to MacOS, if Windows apps really run well under MacOS. (That's still an "if" however.) That takes away a lot of the reason to buy MacOS. And if MacOS ends up running on generic hardware, people will not see the point in buying Apple hardware. As a computer professional, I do see the point of buying stuff that's more expensive than the bottom barrel stuff. The trouble is, you don't always have complete information on how well built and reliable stuff is, so you have to make an educated guess. In commodity hardware, people shop for the lowest price, which doesn't always cost the least, if you know what I mean. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1702 Registered: 10-2004 |
TomD made the point that Apple is losing customers to Linux. My point is I'm a well educated Mac user and I don't have a clue what Ubuntu is. I suspect that most Mac users don't know or care about Linux, and are happy with what they have. I didn't know where Tom got his info that Apple is losing customers to Linux, and it seemed to ring false to me. I am not sure what I am writing that is unkind. TomD has an opinion about something that I am unsure as of yet that he has understanding of. He strikes me as an average PC user that is once again finding all the problems with Apple and it's bad business decisions. I'm sorry but Apple's doing fine. You can stop crying wolf now. The bottom line is Mac OS is a great product. The Mac hardware works excellently and in tandem with the OS. Lots of people appreciate that, which is why there are skads of Mac users. This isn't going to suddenly change because the release of Bootcamp. People who wanted to switch to Mac but needed a PC for when they are home and need to do a bit of work couldn't switch before. Now they can. Bootcamp really eliminates that argument, because you ALSO have a genuine PC when you buy an Intel Mac. I guess only time will tell if TomD is right and Apple will lose more customers than they would gain because of bootcamp. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13606 Registered: 1-2003 |
Alleygater, you ask what Mac experience TomD has in order to dismiss his views, which is unkind and perhaps baseless. Yet you have no Linux experience and feel free to say how important Linux is. Do you remember OS/2? That was actually a repeat of the story of CPM-86 which competed briefly with MS-DOS. It was squashed because it was compatible, even though it was better, by some people's views. If you think this story is different, please tell me why. I don't feel comfortable making a prediction. I.e. I cannot say what WILL happen, but I see that what MIGHT happen is that Apple could suffer similar woes to those in the past, because of the compatibility they introduced. Compatibility is often at odds with making your product distinct from your competitor's. This is a fact often overlooked or bemoaned by technically oriented people, because we technogeeks tend to think that the best man will win. Also, you claim that TomD may not understand something, which comes across as condescending, since you don't really know. As I point out, if you don't know the CPM-86 and OS/2 stories, you are in the same position you claim TomD to be in. Rather than refuting what he says, consider that he may have a point or at least something you can learn from. TomD, some people still see a computer or an OS as an experience unto itself. Maybe we're better off seeing it as a mere tool, but the fact is that some of us don't. Consider how carefully we make our car buying decisions, yet what is it? It's a tool to get you from here to there. Why get emotional about it? Well, we just do. And I could even extrapolate that to the decision of which town or house to live in. It's just a place to lay your head, right? | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1708 Registered: 10-2004 |
I said that Linux is mostly not a concern to Mac folks. I have no opinion on whether it is good or bad or even if it will take over the world. I am not an expert on OS/2 or Windows so I really don't have much to add to that argument. But things that happened then might not happen now. Learn from history sure, but it's not the same situation. Apple has been in business a long time doing right things and being successful. Not true with CPM-86 or OS2. Are you stating that Bootcamp is the fatal mistake that brought down Apple? I don't think it is. I asked TomD if he used a Mac. He didn't respond. I don't use this a way to undermine his argument. I just want to know if the person I am conversing with is educated on the topic at hand. If they are not, I'd just as soon not waste my time talking so much. We tend to give less credence to people who are uneducated or inexperienced. I feel like I refuted MUCH of what TomD said. You make sound like I am just wholly ignoring him. | ||
| TomD Citizen Username: Tomd Post Number: 404 Registered: 5-2005 |
Again, when did I say that Apple wouldn't survive if they didn't "listen to me"? Was it where I wrote that I felt that they should, in 10-15 years, "spin or sell off the computer business in favor of media, distribution and consumer electronics"? Was it when I wrote, "because of Apple's strength in hardware that I think they should plan on (over 10-15 years) getting out of the commodity PC market and moving into other, better margin hardware products--ipods, cell phones, set-top boxes, handhelds (Newton notwithstanding) as well as media and distribution."? Or was it when I wrote, "What I'm actually saying here is that in the future Apple can do better things than making operating systems"? That's real doom and gloom there. Alley, there's no point in discussing this if you are going to let your devotion and years of pent up OS feelings color how you read every mention of Apple. I didn't answer as whether I'm a Mac user because it doesn't matter. I wasn't talking about the merits of the software, I was talking about corporate strategy. It doesn't matter whether I use a mac unless you believe I would become so entranced by the artfulness, the beauty--by the near divinity!--of OSX that I would swoon under its spell. I've been a mac user, but not for about 12 years now. In that time I've probably used unix (solaris and linux) slightly more than macs, though neither very much. Appreciate your defense of me Reingold, but I'm giving up. I'll add one final point, which I briefly mentioned earlier about the narrowing gap between Macs and other OS's. Maybe 15 years ago, let's say the mac os was this good:  and Windows was this good and unix wasn't even used on desktops Then 10 years ago it became: Mac Windows (95) and unix was barely touching desktops A couple of years ago (say about the time of XP's release), maybe you could say mac os was this good: but Windows was probably about: And today, linux is probably at: The point is, it's a narrowing gap. It's not Apple's fault that it's a lot faster, easier and cheaper to learn how to do something after you see someone else do it. That's the danger of being an innovator. Adios. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13612 Registered: 1-2003 |
CPM-86 came from Digital Research, the leading company of operating systems for microcomputers (which is what they were called before we called them PC's or home computers). So you are incorrect about CPM-86 being a newcomer. MS wiped them out by convincing them to make it compatible! You are ignoring history, Alleygater. The facts you are missing are not a good reason to say it won't repeat. I don't know what bootcamp will do. I'm just saying that it -- or the Intel processor -- could be Apple's downfall. Another example is Sun's current struggle. They are selling Intel systems and giving out their OS. The commodity market is killing them. What kind of company are they trying to be? | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13614 Registered: 1-2003 |
TomD, I've been using unix on the desktop since 1988, and it was around before then. | ||
| TomD Citizen Username: Tomd Post Number: 405 Registered: 5-2005 |
You're right. I stand corrected, but I was referring more to the more 'consumerish' unix implementations with GUI front ends that came by way of linux and, to a lesser extent, Solaris for the Intel platform. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1711 Registered: 10-2004 |
TomD what I am saying is this, if you used a mac you would become so entranced by the artfulness, the beauty--by the near divinity!--of OSX that you would swoon under its spell. Trust me.  I guess I'm just not agreeing with you. I stated my opinion why Apple made their choice and why I think strategically it is useful. You stated your opinion that it is a bad business decision. How do we decide who is right? Set some criteria please so in the future we will be able to state that one of us was the winner in this debate. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13625 Registered: 1-2003 |
I don't think this is a game we can win or lose, unless we're willing to take bets and wait a few years. TomD, my 1988 Sun (model 3/60) had a window system, though perhaps I couldn't call it a GUI. And I don't know what it cost, but it was probably over $5,000. So I guess I'll concede your point that desktop unix wasn't in the consumer market. But we did have X windows on 386 systems in about 1990. But the timing and marketing were wrong. I don't think bootcamp will be the fatal flaw, but using the Intel processor might be the beginning of Apple computers' downfall. I hope I am wrong. I've recently become an Apple fan, partly because I'm a unix fan. I've wished for unix desktops to be in the consumer market since, well, you know, 1988. I've also been waiting to see Goliath fall. I know I will one day. I just don't know when. I am heartened to see Apple's marketshare grow over recent years, DURING an increase in the size of the market. I am even more heartened to hear that its marketshare is increasing in BUSINESSES! This is very significant. So I'm not predicting anyone's downfall (except Microsoft's). I'm just apprehensive. And I'd like to see more contenders than those we have. More diversity means more quality, more choice, better security, more fair competition, and better value. |
