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Message |
    
AlleyGater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 769
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 5, 2005 - 10:27 am: |     |
Right off the bat, I'm not telling you the Mac sucks. Instead I'm requesting that you tell me how/why it sucks.
Ever since forever, I've been a Mac user. There was a time I would evangelize the Mac, and occassionally I would even fight the Holy War against a PC user.
I have to admit, back then there were SERIOUS issues with OS9 and the Mac in general. And during my battles I would sometimes have to admit that the Mac had problems. I'm not saying that the problems or arguments were big enough for me to switch to a PC but I was capable of seeing the points that my "opponents" were making.
Now though, I'm not sure I see too many problems with the Mac. Yes, there is still the price issue, but I think even the PC people can see how that gap has been closed fairly substantially over the years. A lot or dare I say most, heck let's just for argument sake say ALL of the problems that used to exist with the old Mac OS are now gone. What issues do the PC/Windoze users have now?
Seriously, Mayor McFromage I would like to be enlightened. I honestly believe I might need a wake up call that the Mac has problems, cause right now I'm not seeing them. Anyone want to help me smash my rose colored computer glasses?
I promise to keep the conversation high-brow if you do. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 8827
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 5, 2005 - 11:06 am: | |
This is a holy war. Stuff can't resolved here. It's a matter of taste.
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Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 7060
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Friday, August 5, 2005 - 11:34 am: | |
Both operating systems have improved a lot (as has the hardware they use). The problem is once you invest a lot in software, changing becomes a financial burden, so people get defensive. I think Apple realized this and moved to an open source platform that can run GNU stuff and included great native software to handle multimedia. Windows XP Pro doesn't include such software; they rely on 3rd party developers (because they can, I guess). It's now easier to switch to a Mac than the other way around. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 8835
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 5, 2005 - 12:39 pm: | |
Dave, I don't see how your last sentence is true.
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Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 7063
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Friday, August 5, 2005 - 12:44 pm: | |
Macs come with a lot of free multimedia software that Windows lacks. I can make a DVD on a Mac out of the box. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 8836
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 5, 2005 - 12:47 pm: | |
Oh, I think I get it now. It's hard to switch from Mac to Windows because you're accustomed to getting more bundled software.
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Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 7065
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Friday, August 5, 2005 - 1:00 pm: | |
Yes. Of course there may be Windows freeware I'm not aware of. I have a Mac and a PC, but mostly use the Mac. My wife uses Excel a lot and she says the Mac version doesn't have an equivalent keyboard short-cut setup, so my dream of being 100% Mac is lost for now. Also having a PC helps me test what web sites look like to most of the world. |
AlleyGater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 773
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 5, 2005 - 1:05 pm: | |
OK, I don't mind your side chatter, but neither of you answered the question. What are the chinks in the Apple armor? What ways do PC people think the Mac sux. The Fromage Mayor got me thinking about it. He is so adamant that the Mac sux, and I want to know in what ways (real ways) is that true. I will try my best to NOT let it become a Holy War because I honestly just want to know. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 8840
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 5, 2005 - 1:08 pm: | |
OK, you want gripes? Here's one, though it's small. In Windows, I can hit the Alt key, and I'll see what the available keystrokes are available, because some menu items will underline a single letter. Then I can pull down a menu with the keyboard, e.g. Alt-F for the "File" drop-down. That drop-down will show me the next available shortcuts.
I don't see how to do this with MacOS.
And MacOS programs tend to have more items in the drop-downs that don't have keyboard shortcuts.
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 8841
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 5, 2005 - 1:09 pm: | |
Here's another gripe. In Windows, Alt-Tab will cycle through windows. In MacOS, Apple-Tab will cycle through applications but not windows within an application. Is there a keystroke for cycling through windows within an application?
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 8842
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 5, 2005 - 1:11 pm: | |
I hope to do almost everything with the keyboard instead of a mouse, and MacOS doesn't seem to aim to make that easy or even possible. I am a good typist and a clumsy mouser. The mouse slows me down, and I make lots of mouse-o's. I like the mouse for when it makes sense, e.g. graphical work or choosing among a large list of choices. |
AlleyGater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 775
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 5, 2005 - 2:35 pm: | |
Hmmmm... I would say that is a somewhat valid concern. I can accept that.
Try pressing Control + Tab to move between windows in an application.
Any more??? Give me something meatier. |
Eric
Citizen
Username: Ericactive
Post Number: 12
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 5, 2005 - 2:58 pm: | |
Tom,
Sounds like you need this app:
http://www.macility.com/products/keycue/ |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 8848
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 5, 2005 - 3:53 pm: | |
Give me something meatier.
Haha, I'm not your adversary here.
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Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 7070
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Friday, August 5, 2005 - 4:46 pm: | |
SONY poised to deliver a significant kick in the butt to Microsoft's gamer market. Apple may play a role.
Quote:Sony is expected to offer optional hard drives for the PS3 with potential memory capacity of 80 or 120 GB. It remains to be decided whether the standard version of the PS3 will come complete with a hard drive. The operating system has also yet to be clarified. The integrated Cell processor will be able to support a variety of operating systems (such as Linux or Apple's Tiger).
http://www.sony.co.uk/view/ShowArticle.action?article=1121156666920 |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 8854
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 5, 2005 - 4:48 pm: | |
Also, Dave, people get defensive of any large purchase decision they've made. They don't want to believe they made a big, bad mistake.
Ask anyone who just bought a car, any car. They are enthralled.
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monster
Supporter
Username: Monster
Post Number: 1047
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 12:40 am: | |
In OS X I just push (click) my scroll wheel down (or press F9), and all of my windows shrink and move out of the way, as I mouse over the shrunken windows it greys and presents text telling me what the finder, or browser window has frontmost, just click on the window I want, and everything enlarges back to normal with that window frontmost.
If I press F10, only the windows for the front most app shrink out of the way, allowing me a choice.
F11 will move every window to the sides allowing easy access to the desktop.
Of course all of the above is configurable to use the keys or keystrokes you wish.
One think I like, is that with the use of "Windowshade X" by "Unsanity", http://unsanity.com/news/
is that it offers me other configurable alternatives. For instance I can double press the (Command, Apple, or Splat) key and the frontmost window will roll up into it's top (like in OS 9) letting me see what is behind it, or I can double press the control key (alt in winduds) which will make the frontmost window transparent, allowing me to see what is behind it, Opacity is variable.
If I hold the control key down and double click on the Window's Title Bar, it will minimize in place as a little teeny weeny transparent window,(you can even see animated gifs, and other changes occuring in the window).
Of course these actions are configurable with sounds, shadow spread, shadow density, horizontal density, vertical offset, and window borders, for bothe the frontmost window, and the inactive windows.
That last sentence I wrote while the window was transparent, and I looked at the different settings that were showing on the window behind it.
There are, with the right haxie, quite a few things you can do.
You know Tom, if my daughter doesn't take my older iBook with her tomorrow on her trip, I could let you borrow it for the week to play with OS X, feel free to pick it up during movie night tomorrow, or let me know when.
And lest I forget, here are a few key commands, shortcuts, for those of us that are Mac users, some are far older machines OS's, and some for OS X.
There may be a few that are repeated, but I'm just doing a copy and paste from my files.
UMMMM, do to the post size restrictions I will have to post what follows in it's own thread, seeing as how it goes over the individual post size.
Perhaps Dave or Jamie can put it back in this post, if not it will be found under a post entitled, "Apple Shortcuts", (and apparently "Apple Shortcuts 2) thank you, and have a good night, or day.
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Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 456
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 2:55 am: | |
AlleyGater
Sorry I took so long to reply. I have said in the past and will say again, I have nothing but respect for the mac. I am just a PC user at heart I guess. To tell you the truth, if everyone used a mac, and PCs became the minority, I would probably switch to a mac right away.
I just enjoy the fact the systems I use and know well are the systems that just about everyone uses.
I also enjoy the fact the PC prices are lower than Mac prices. (This gap may be getting smaller, but there is a noticeable gap.)
Also just to ease. If I want to buy some kind of hardware for my PC I can go anywhere and get it. I don't just have to go to the one store that I can find that actually sells apple hardware. (The Internet solves this somewhat, but then there is shipping.) This leads to all sorts of pricing promotions with so much competition that usually you can find all sorts of great deals on PC hardware.
I know that apple puts out one hell of a computer, but I think I will stick to my PC. Also, by not switching, I won't have to spend the next few months of my life trying to master all the ins and outs of a different operating system.
I don't mean to be "anti-mac" I am just pro PC. |
sac
Supporter
Username: Sac
Post Number: 2455
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 7:51 am: | |
We've just always used a PC/Windows because that's what I and spouse had at work, although my very first computer was an Apple II+. (Now that dates me for sure!)
However, other family members have Macs which I occasionally use to some extent when visiting ... and the one thing I miss is the Right-click menus - since the Mac mouse only has one mouse button (at least the ones my family members have.) Is there some other function/action that has similar results on the Mac? |
Network & PC Care
Citizen
Username: Npccare
Post Number: 23
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 10:49 am: | |
Sac, hold ctrl then click. It is essentially a right click. Apple did put out their first two button mouse this past week btw.
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monster
Supporter
Username: Monster
Post Number: 1052
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 10:59 am: | |
you don't have to use the mouse that comes with your Mac, you can buy a better one. |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 7072
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 10:59 am: | |
or just use a 2-button mouse... |
sac
Supporter
Username: Sac
Post Number: 2464
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 11:27 am: | |
Well, it wasn't my computer so I didn't get to select the mouse. And my Mac loving family members don't understand why anyone would want another mouse button.
If you do put a multi-button mouse on a Mac, do you get the same kind of right-click functionality as in Windows?
Thanks for the ctrl-click hint ... I'll try that next time I visit a Mac home. |
Nohero
Supporter
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 4586
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 11:34 am: | |
Mac lovers are too "cultish" for me.  |
jayson Kirby
Citizen
Username: Zyxen
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 4:25 pm: | |
Tom - to respond to your concerns regarding keyboard control on the Mac. If you go into the System Preferences [on the Mac] and go to Keyboard & Mouse you will notice a tab called Keyboard Shortcuts. The Default setting for the OS is that the keyboard access is limited to Text Boxes and Lists. There is a checkbox there to change to full keyboard access. This will give you what you are looking for. It also allows you to change/add shortcuts. There is a shortcut for everything. You can even use your Number Pad to control the arrow if you have no mouse.
I also like to try and use the keyboard as much as possible, however, I do find a number of things to be quicker still with the mouse [set to it's highest possible tracking speed]  |
Network & PC Care
Citizen
Username: Npccare
Post Number: 24
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 8:04 pm: | |
sac, here is what a right click looks like on my mac. I use a microsoft intellipoint mouse.  |
Bradley Dichter
Citizen
Username: Bradmacpro
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 8, 2005 - 10:50 pm: | |
Tom Reingold: To rotate through and bring forward one of the available windows in the foreground application, just use command-tilde (the key above the tab key with the wavy line). And to correct your comment, it is in fact command-tab, not alt-tab (which in Mac-speak would be option-tab) in order to cycle among running applications. Adding shift to either of these shortcuts cycle in reverse.
Back on topic, it's true that Apple has been inspired to add some elements from Windows, but as noted, NeXTSTEP already had variations on these themes. see http://www120.pair.com/mccarthy/nextstep/intro.htmld/desktop1.gif and compare that to what OS X offers today. But you have to admit that Windows 3.1, 95, 98 and all the rest have been inspired by the Mac interface elements that came out years before. Apple sued but Microsoft won by having a different look and feel. Microsoft usually shrugs off lawsuits including those about monopolistic powers brought by assorted counties. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 8907
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 8, 2005 - 11:38 pm: | |
Thanks, Bradley. Someone else sent me that tip. And I remembered the keynames wrong, because I'm rarely in front of a Mac. The only Mac I use nowadays is my wife's old G3 laptop running OS 9.2, so Command-tilde doesn't work, but I'll bear it in mind.
Not sure how relevant who the inventor is. Apple sued MS but that took nerve, since they took the look and feel from Xerox. |
Network & PC Care
Citizen
Username: Npccare
Post Number: 25
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 7:01 am: | |
Bradley, didn't Steve Jobs create NeXT?
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AlleyGater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 801
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 11:19 am: | |
Jobs ran created the company Next. And Apple bought Next and brought Jobs back into Apple to run the company. Jobs has a lot of vision and a very strong personality. It doesn't surprise me in the least that he was ousted from Apple years ago.
It sounds to me that NONE of the PC users here also use a Mac and hate it. Like I do with the PC. So I am not getting any good reasons why the Mac sux. I guess I'm going to have to start a holy war somewhere else, I guess. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 8921
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 11:23 am: | |
Or be content that you won!
What's the point of starting a holy war, anyway?
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AlleyGater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 807
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 12:18 pm: | |
I was kidding about the holy war. I honestly had no intention on going in that direction with the conversation. I sincerely wanted a good critique of what PC users thought were OSX's failings since there were a few grumblings from how MOL is so Mac centric. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 8924
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 12:33 pm: | |
Oh, OK. Well, I don't think anyone said Mac centric, but there is a big tendency for this:
Q: I'm a PC user (stated or implied). How do I do X?
A: If you had a Mac, you wouldn't need to do X, and you could do Y and Z, too. Now aren't you happy to know that? And don't you feel dumb for buying a PC?
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AlleyGater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 813
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 12:56 pm: | |
No, I think the PC users are lacking confidence in their small PC muscles and feel like us Mac users gang up on them.  |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 8927
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 12:59 pm: | |
Ganging up isn't nice, no matter how small their muscles are. |
AlleyGater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 818
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 1:17 pm: | |
Well I didn't say I was ganging up on them. I just said they think we are. I personally want to stay as far away as possible from those tiny little muscles of theirs. |
scrim
Citizen
Username: Scrim
Post Number: 36
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 12:20 am: | |
Alleygater,
Why don't you ask this guy why? ( I just thought this was hilarious).
http://www.guzer.com/videos/hatesmac.php |
AlleyGater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 912
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 10:52 am: | |
scrim: H I L A R I O U S ! ! !
That movie was very well put together. Unfortunately most of the (dare I call them) arguments weren't very well thought out. It was more of an unfocused rant. I barely understood his complaint some of the time. That didn't diminish the humor though.
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