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Message |
    
mayhewdrive
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 409
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, October 2, 2003 - 9:11 pm: | 
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NW,
Are you even sure of the $50k number? I thought it was actually much higher than that. |
vermontgolfer
Citizen
Username: Vermontgolfer
Post Number: 96
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, October 2, 2003 - 10:56 pm: |
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What's the diff? a .35% here, a .50% there, yada, yada, yada. We need to cut expenses, period! Hate to be negative here, but this is something that can wait.
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mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 657
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, October 4, 2003 - 1:01 pm: |
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nw: I think your logic is correct.
Mayhewdrive: The 50K number was floated to the board as the amount needed to secure grants and to do some site prep for the sculpture.
For now, I can think of several reasons not to go ahead with the statue, but not being able to afford it is a good start. |
steel
Citizen
Username: Steel
Post Number: 374
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 6, 2003 - 6:32 pm: |
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Please inform yourselves first as to who and what you are possibly passing on.
You cannot purchase a Tony Smith sculpture for a lousy 50 thousand dollars. (hysterical). However if that is all that the town is being asked to kick in, (less than 3 bucks a person) you should count it a very cheap blessing indeed.
http://www.sculpture.org/documents/scmag98/tsmith/sm-tsmth.htm
http://www.artsonthepoint.org/smith_tony/smith.html
I realize that such work means little or nothing to many of you, (and that's fine) but it would really be a shame to pass on such an opportunity to showcase the work of a world-renowned South Orange son within South Orange in exchange for what? -Pool patching? Hey world! look at us! We have a patched pool! Look what we South Orange citizens can achieve!
If you visit the two above sites and still think it is a stupid idea, (or maybe you just hate it) that's fine too but at least look and read.
PS He did not make statues or oranges on poles,(very hysterical -thank you). |
Lizziecat
Citizen
Username: Lizziecat
Post Number: 59
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 6, 2003 - 8:10 pm: |
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That thing in front of the middle school is an orange? I thought it was a permanent halloween display of a pumpkin. Silly me! And they want to put up another one?
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Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 5342
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 6, 2003 - 9:55 pm: |
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I HATE.. ABSOLUTELY HATE that stupid ****ing orange thing!!!
The Oranges are not named after the damned fruit. What gross negligence to let that sculpture exist in front of a school of all places. It adds insult to injury, IMHO, to teach children that our town is named after a citruis fruit.
Idiotic.
--
And I agree with Steel that if the T. Smith sculpture is only $50k, it's a steal. |
NCJanow
Citizen
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 1009
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 6, 2003 - 10:00 pm: |
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I vote to recall the stupid, orange thingy and put up ANYTHING else.
NCJ aka LibraryLady
On a coffee break..or something like it.
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Lizziecat
Citizen
Username: Lizziecat
Post Number: 60
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 6, 2003 - 11:54 pm: |
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Count me in, NCJ. That stupied pumpkin-orange on a stick makes the whole town look silly. |
bets
Citizen
Username: Bets
Post Number: 392
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 7, 2003 - 1:14 am: |
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Thank you, Steel.
Tony's mother was born in the same house he was.
It was next door to us. Their backyard was a different world. There was an iron cube that I thought was as big as my house centered beneath towering birches and oaks, and it felt like my own secret garden. I ran away to school when I was 3 (and to find out where my sister got to go) and I remember Jane helped find me (asleep in front of the Marshall School kindergarten door by the playground).
They had a French bull-dog that let me maul him all over and even ride occasionally. Kiki, Bebe, and Annie all babysat me at times. Bebe was beautiful, with long red hair and big brown eyes  . Kiki and Annie are both artists in their own right, and I feel lucky to have seen the exhibit in Florida.
Yes, a Tony Smith sculpture would make South Orange a destination. This sleepy, family-oriented town is his.
Or, should I say, it was. Back then. |
mayhewdrive
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 417
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 7, 2003 - 11:28 am: |
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Bets,
I have to disagree that a single sculpture will make S.O. a destination (we are not talking about Michelangelo's David).
The truth is that South Orange has many famous residents & former residents - as a fan of Max Weinberg & Kevin Spacey, I'd love to see Max's drums or Kevin's Oscar somewhere in town, too - but not at taxpayer expense.
Perhaps, we should think bigger & have a "South Orange celebrity museum" in the lobby of SOPAC if/when it opens someday to honor all of South Orange's celebrities. Perhaps THAT would be a destination and maybe by then we will be past our fiscal crisis.
Until then, the BOT should focus on getting Beifus and the supermarket built and cutting all fat from our budget. |
nwyave
Citizen
Username: Mesh
Post Number: 119
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 7, 2003 - 12:04 pm: |
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Mdrive - well said. The problem is that nobody wants a steep tax hike - which is what is currently projected - but at the same token, nobody wants to cut their own pet projects. We have to take a moment and step back and look at the big picture. This sculpture may be a nice thing to have, but not when we are in this crisis mode. Lets be realistic, this will for the most part not cause significant amounts of incremental people to come to our town. It will not change the essence of the downtown or the magnitude of the people that come to the area. If we have a hard time deciding on cutting this, could you imagine what the reaction will be when the issue is at hand to cut much needed services so as to balance the budget? This increase in taxes is real unless we are ready to face the realities and cut whenever and wherever necessary.
David Ross: On your 10/2 posting you were against this and on your most recent posting you seemed for it - ?? Not sure how anything could be considere a "steal" vis a vis our current financial situation. You are right actually, something might be a steal, but the better question is can we afford it? My answer is a resolute no. In an analagous fashion, something might be a "steal" from a personal situation, but one opts not to buy it, because in the big picture, steal or not, its not something one can afford. I encourage the BOT and the residents of SO to think in a similar fashion. |
Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 5348
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 7, 2003 - 12:15 pm: |
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We could buy it for $50,000 and sell it for $500,000. |
nwyave
Citizen
Username: Mesh
Post Number: 120
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 7, 2003 - 12:21 pm: |
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If it was only so easy! I don't think that is the intent of the acquistion. Lest I also remind you that albeit with very good intent, the problems that the town has encountered when it bought previous property with the hope of selling it at its convenience. |
vermontgolfer
Citizen
Username: Vermontgolfer
Post Number: 102
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 7, 2003 - 2:36 pm: |
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Being ignorant of Mr. Smith and his work, I will accept that his work is examplary, however I agree with mayhewdrive nad nwyave, that now is not the time to spend when we don't have it. I would agree that mw's suggestion of a SO 'celebrity museum' is a wonderful idea and one that would be more prudent, given the current crisis. This is not meant as a knock on Mr. Smith, I just think now is the time to cut, not 'get a steal'
nwyave, maybe it's good that none of us, with the exception of the few BOT members who post here, have to be involved in the budget cutting process and I frankly don't envy their position. |
wnb
Citizen
Username: Wnb
Post Number: 52
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 7, 2003 - 2:40 pm: |
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They did an informal survey a while ago about this via email, and asked for this kind of public input. My impression from the ensuing debate was that there was some mixed support for the project itself (some like the sculpture, some don't) but that the consensus point was that few to none were willing to do this at public expense. I never saw an 'official' tally of the results, though it did seem to be an informal request for public input.
Don't forget this is not a 'one time' charge to purchase something like this. You need some form of ongoing maintenance. Who takes care of it, to what degree, and at what cost?
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mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 662
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 7, 2003 - 3:29 pm: |
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wnb: You hit the nail on the head with my biggest concern. It is not a one-time expense as there will be maintenance costs.
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Eric DeVaris
Citizen
Username: Eric_devaris
Post Number: 47
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 5:35 pm: |
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I encourage, no, I urge the readers of this thread and especially all those who have offered an opinion above, to attend Thursday's S.O./M. Adult School lecture on Tony Smith (see below for particulars). It will help us all form an educated opinion on the project, for or against it, and conduct here a more intelligent discourse.
A model of the project will be on display.
Architect David Rifkind, a Columbia University lecturer and resident of South Orange will speak about the sculptor Tony Smith (1912-1980), a native and resident of South Orange. Cheryl Arnedt, the director of the Tony Smith Sculpture Project will speak about the project. Both will be available to answer our questions.
The lecture is on this Thursday 11/13 at 7:30 p.m. at the S.O.Middle School's Little Theater ($12 registration at the door).
I hope to see you there.
Eric |
nwyave
Citizen
Username: Mesh
Post Number: 133
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 9:55 pm: |
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There may be many valid reasons to buy this sculpture, but there is one overriding reason not to it - we can't afford it - period. |
Allan J Rosen
Citizen
Username: Allanrosen
Post Number: 23
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 11:37 am: |
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The Board of Trustees will have to9 decide what it wants to do with respect to this statue, but there are two things that readers of this thread should understand:
1) The statue would not be purchased out of the operating budget. It would properly be a capital expenditure and probably could be paid for out of ordinances already on the books; thus, if done, it would not be done with any immediate taxable consequence.
2) If purchased, it would result in an immediate accretion to assets, since the statue would be worth approximately double what the Village reportedly would pay; i.e., if desired, the Village could immediately turn around and sell it for double the purchase price. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 773
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 11:42 am: |
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Allan: Your comments beg follow-up questions so in case nobody else asks, I will:
1: What would the long-term tax consequence be?
2: What do you mean it could be paid for "out of ordinances already on the books"?
3: How much of a market of this type of sculpture is there and who would be a prospective buyer in your mind?
Thanks |
mayhewdrive
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 517
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 11:58 am: |
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If the Village's record on being in the "Art business" is anything like the Village's record on being in the "Real Estate business", I'd strongly suggest we learn from our mistakes & not touch this thing with a 10 foot pole.
Can anyone say "Midas" and "Shop Rite"? |
John Deere
Citizen
Username: Localhost
Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:15 pm: |
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Who would we be buying this from, and why are they getting rid of it? |
mayhewdrive
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 518
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 2:04 pm: |
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From what I had heard (I believe this was in the News Record a week or 2 ago) - this sculpture would be BUILT for this purpose.
In other words, I understand it that buying the sculpture, is essentially like licensing...you "buy" the right to the sculpture & then it is created based on a design that Tony Smith created. This is not an actual existing scuplture that was created by Tony Smith himself.
I may not be using the correct terminology, but in principle this is how I understood it to work. |
John Deere
Citizen
Username: Localhost
Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 3:49 pm: |
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So it's not an actual Tony Smith sculpture, but the equivalent of a lithograph??? For how much money??? |
mayhewdrive
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 519
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 4:39 pm: |
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That's how I understand it.
Maybe we should pick up a Mona Lisa, too:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3637514279&category=20129
 |
nwyave
Citizen
Username: Mesh
Post Number: 134
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 11:20 pm: |
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Please, the bottom line is we are paying for it - whether out of current operating budget, a cap ex that we are financing or out of unused past budget $s. Wherever, this money is coming from, it is coming from resident's tax $s, and being in the crisis that we are in, I would think that we would divert the money to tax reduction. Again bottom line, if the residents are not paying for it, in some shape or form, please explain to me who is.
Thanks. |
mayhewdrive
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 520
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 10:20 am: |
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NWy,
I found the following meeting minutes from last year, where a request for a grant was made to pay for this. I think this also helps better explain how much this whole thing is expected to cost: http://www.southorange.org/minutes/2002/11252002r.htm
The highlight being: "The artist’s widow, Jane Smith, is currently working on a proposal to make a substantial gift to the Village of South Orange by donating the rights of one of Smith’s sculptures to the town. The specifics of that gift are still being worked on, but the value of the gift is estimated at about $500,000 – the cost of one of Smith’s sculptures.
What the gift will mean is that we will be responsible for covering all costs associated with fabricating, transporting, installing, siting, insuring and conserving the sculpture. Our estimate for these costs is $250,000. The site is on Sloan Street in front of the train station, where a gazebo and fountain now stand”.
(bolding & italics are mine)
Does anyone know if the grant was ever Granted? |
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 657
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 11:31 am: |
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John Deere: "So it's not an actual Tony Smith sculpture, but the equivalent of a lithograph???"
Virtually all cast or fabricated metal sculpture is "the equivalent of a lithograph," including, for instance, a number of works by Rodin. This does not necessarily lessen a particular sculpture's market value. In any case, the number of copies of any given piece is usually limited by an artist or his estate to far fewer than is typical for prints.
Allan Rosen: "If purchased, it would result in an immediate accretion to assets, since the statue would be worth approximately double what the Village reportedly would pay; i.e., if desired, the Village could immediately turn around and sell it for double the purchase price."
I know nothing about the details of the Smith proposal, but I do know that art ownership, particularly as it pertains to public art, usually comes with strings attached. It is by no means a given that South Orange could "turn around and sell" a Tony Smith sculpture, especially if the rights to it were a gift intended to grace the town where the artist lived.
This purchase simply should not be contemplated in terms of its theoretical asset value. Either buy it for its intrinsic value (as art) or don't.
Two more points:
1. If Jane Smith is prepared to donate the rights to one of her husband's sculptures, then surely she would entertain the possibility of postponing her gift until such time as the town can afford to receive it; otherwise, we should accept the gift on condition that Mrs. Smith not require we fabricate or emplace the work before we're fiscally ready.
2. Much of Smith's work is best experienced in an open setting, such as a large park. I would be interested to know how large the proposed sculpture will be. If it isn't very big, it might work well enough at the existing fountain site. On the other hand, it might look contrived or jarring in such close proximity to the fire station, whose architecture is currently the aesthetic focal point of Sloan St.
Has any real thought been given to how the work will fit into its proposed setting? Do we have any idea what the train station will look like once NJ Transit finishes working on upgrades to it? What's the point of situating a work of fine art in front of a crumbling mound of neglect? (Frankly, putting a Smith anywhere on Sloan strikes me as a bad idea--I suspect the area is too cramped and cluttered to do justice to it--but I would want to reserve judgment until having seen a model of the piece.)
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Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 5687
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 12:10 pm: |
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Are we factoring into the cost the $ spent on building the gazebo and fountain? |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 774
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 12:33 pm: |
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Dave: Actually, the plan calls for the gazebo and fountains to be moved. So, the costs for moving them should be factored into the equation.
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Allan J Rosen
Citizen
Username: Allanrosen
Post Number: 24
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 2:51 pm: |
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Mark: To respond to your questions:
a) The long term tax consequences of a capital purchase is that the bonds have to be paid off over say 20-25 years.
b) The statue could be purchased under one of the existing and not fully utilized downtown redevelopment ordinances, including the Arts Center Ordinance provided that the current Sopac Board would also approve the purchase.
c) I am not recommending that we turn around and sell the sculpture if we approve the purchase. What I am saying is that the sculpture is worth far more on the open market than the proposed costs of assembling and maintaining it. Presumed markets would be museums, art collectors, or the like. I agree with J Crohn's comments that we purchase the object only if we intend to enjoy having it on display.
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kevin
Citizen
Username: Kevin
Post Number: 120
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 4:36 pm: |
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What is the name of the piece that would be donated and what is the size?
The sculpture prices according to internet searches show TONY SMITH top price records:
Sculpture-Installation: USD $75,000: "Tau"
Sculpture-Installation: USD $75,000: "Gracehoper"
Are we getting something special that will be worth so much more than the highest price that one of these original sculputes have sold for? I might be missing something, but I don't see how this thing could be worth $500,000 (well, maybe from a tax break point of view).
The Montclair Art Museum has one (made of granite) in their collection:
http://www.montclair-art.com/collections/search/page_03.asp?PixIndex=116
Also, one of his sculptures sold at auction in September:
http://www.artnet.com/Auction/AuctionsOnLineDetail.asp?LotID=2841537
Another last year:
http://www.artnet.com/Auction/AuctionsOnLineDetail.asp?LotID=2680903
There were two smith sculptures up for auction the past two days, but I don't have the final bidding information.
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nwyave
Citizen
Username: Mesh
Post Number: 135
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 10:00 pm: |
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I think we are fooling ourselves. One of the reasons our taxes have sky rocketed is the increased debt service costs. So here, we are ready to incur more. Just because we are going to pay for this over 25 years vs now, doesn't help at all. In fact it hurts more, we are spending what we can't afford now and deferring that cost until future times, all the while incurring interest costs . Does that make sense? Is that fiscally responsible?
As a last point, who cares if its worth more than we are paying for it - if we don't plan on selling it and can't afford it, we can't afford it. I am having a hard time with the whole discussion becomes it comes back to what I believe is a real hard time on the towns part to make tough financial decisions and say no to discretionary spending where possible. |
bets
Citizen
Username: Bets
Post Number: 419
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 12:28 am: |
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If Jane is truly offering a $500,000 gift, the village should propose using that money to buy the Stanley Road property for use as a gallery for Tony's and his daughters' art. |
bets
Citizen
Username: Bets
Post Number: 420
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 12:35 am: |
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Is $1.5 million for cleanup of a village-owned property discretionary? Take that monetary figure with a great big salt pill, 'cause it's a nasty, dirty site that belongs to us. Tony would call it "floorplay."
I bet a Tony Smith sculpture against your village market! And yet, it's worth it this time. |
ril
Citizen
Username: Ril
Post Number: 132
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 9:53 am: |
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perhaps off topic: why were workers tearing up the brickwork sidewalks by the gazebo this morning? couldn't tell if they were NJT workers, town employees or what. Is this part of the NJT project (which is messier and more extensive than ever) or something to do with placement of the scupture?
Anyway, they were making quite a mess of the sidewalk. Anyone want to bet on whether it gets rebuilt properly? |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 775
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 10:29 am: |
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NJ Transit workers. I am sure they will not get it rebuilt correctly - the first time.
The purchase of the statue has not been approved yet (unless they voted on it when I was out of the room one meeting). |
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