| Author | Message | ||
     mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 673 Registered: 4-2002 |
Doublea: Most of the $25,000,000 was probably spent in the first two years. I did not allow for legal fees, architectual fees, permits, pre-construction costs, etc, all of which are not counted in the $25,000,000. The total cost of the project was probably closer to $30,000,000. For purposes of the PILOT the $25,000,000 was the number that is used (by statute, not just to make the payment lower). Usually, a person refers to a property flip when the time period is significantly shorter (one year or less). The 12% might be too high too. However, I have a feeling it is pretty close to accurate. By the way, since a PILOT helped the overall picture for the village, I don't understand your point. If the development sells for the rumored $40,000,000 that is a positive sign and shows other developers that S. Orange can be a good place to make an investment. Woodstock: The only thing wrong with your scenario is a property is not reassesed when it is sold (that is true of any property in NJ). If it comes off a PILOT it would be reassesed based on rental income not on the purchase price or the building costs. The reality is that it would not help the village if it comes off the PILOT agreement. Growler: I will join you in voting for woodstock. | ||
| doublea Citizen Username: Doublea Post Number: 311 Registered: 3-2003 |
http://www.woodstockforgovenor.org | ||
| dgm Citizen Username: Dgm Post Number: 149 Registered: 5-2001 |
Yes GC helped the Village in some way that I am not aware of yet (new residents, more patrons for our wheezing downtown). 1) It does not benefit taxpayers who pay school taxes -- any of us. 2.) My village taxes are not going down or even visibly blunted by GC's presence nor is the budget crisis in the village solved. Nor is revenue from GC (there is none) making the schools better for my kids. I cannot buy into by this continuous line that GC shifts the school tax burden to Maplewood, or that GC would be bigger and uglier (how much bigger and uglier could it get?) if there was no PILOT/Abatement project. The deal could have been better for the community as a whole without a PILOT/abatement, not just South Orange Village. I for one, live in the community. And let's not even go into the precedent it sets for other developers... | ||
| mayhewdrive Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 428 Registered: 5-2001 |
DGM, Well put. It is amazing that GC was approved by the Planning Board in a single night, got a tax abatement and did not invest one dime in improving the parkland that surrounds the property. I agree it sets a bad precedent. | ||
| growler Citizen Username: Growler Post Number: 247 Registered: 11-2001 |
doublea: My family will be taxed out of our house at some point. Whether it be by electing a new mayor or the state saying we have to. Unless the economy turns around or I get a new job. Hey, the assistant rec position is still open, right?  | ||
| vermontgolfer Citizen Username: Vermontgolfer Post Number: 104 Registered: 12-2002 |
woodstock, and I thought I paid a disproportionate share of our town taxes. you get my vote as well. dgm, not to beat a dead horse, but it's really dead, but it's been said over and over, you may not agree, but GC would never had happened without a PILOT. | ||
| Guesswho Citizen Username: Guesswho Post Number: 21 Registered: 9-2003 |
Sometimes I wonder how much some of these discontented posters really know about our village..we don't have a Mayor, guys, we elect a Village President. Therefore: Woodstock for President (when Mr. Bill decides to retire). | ||
| vermontgolfer Citizen Username: Vermontgolfer Post Number: 105 Registered: 12-2002 |
Oh No!, Mr. Bill!  | ||
| Silvio Dante Citizen Username: Silviodante Post Number: 5 Registered: 8-2003 |
Woodstock for President! Hell...I would a settle for Charlie Brown, Linus or even Snoopy at this point. | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 679 Registered: 4-2002 |
Sivlio: I think it is time for a female president, therefore I will be supporting Lucy (or the little red-haired girl). | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 545 Registered: 3-2003 |
I think it is time for a naturalized alien president, therefore I will be supporting one of the space creatures from Calvin and Hobbes. And if there is a lack of interest on the part of space aliens, there's this Austrian robot in California who, one day, could conceivably look with longing on the presidency of our little township. | ||
| dgm Citizen Username: Dgm Post Number: 150 Registered: 5-2001 |
hey vermont, It did need a PILOT (not a bad thing in itself), did it need a 100% abatement too? | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 690 Registered: 4-2002 |
Jen: We could make Susie President and Spaceman Spiff the Secretary of State. Hobbes will be calling all the shots anyway. dgm: 100% abatement? What am I missing? | ||
| dgm Citizen Username: Dgm Post Number: 151 Registered: 5-2001 |
An abatement of county and school taxation. GC pays an annual PILOT and and doesn't have to pay school and county taxes because it has a tax abatement. You must be pulling my chain. | ||
| vermontgolfer Citizen Username: Vermontgolfer Post Number: 110 Registered: 12-2002 |
dgm, As I've stated often here, I'm no PILOT expert and frankly don't know if I think they are a good idea. Having said that however, I attented the PILOT presentation a few months ago and while you are correct that they pay no county or school taxes, we the SO taxpayer, benefits from this, at least in this PILOT. As Mark asks, are we missing something? | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 691 Registered: 4-2002 |
dgm: The county had to sign off on the PILOT agreement. The agreement calls for them to make a payment to the village of $500,000 a year plus whatever percentage increase there is each year. This is about double what the village would have received. The county and the school still get the exact same amount of money from S. Orange that they were getting. The question that needed to be asked "is the bottom line to each taxpayer in S. Orange less with the money the village gets from the PILOT vs what it would have been had they been required to pay the full amount of taxes?" At the PILOT meeting there was information given out that showed that the bottom line for the taxpayer was better with a PILOT than under normal taxation. The assesed value of the property does not count into the school formula which is why the village's total share did not change after the project was built. Had there not been a PILOT, that would have increased our share. Of course, it was the feeling of the village that there would not have been a project built had we not offered a PILOT (I know, some people disagree with that sentiment). The Gaslight is paying about 50% of what they would have had to pay in total, so I could have understood had you said it was a 50% tax abatement. | ||
| dgm Citizen Username: Dgm Post Number: 152 Registered: 5-2001 |
You've stated that before. Now what do you propose to help the schools benefit from the growth of our tax base? What about the pending developer's agreements? Will the schools again be cut out of that A.V. growth? It is of no concern, however, if your children have left the SOMA system, is it? | ||
| woodstock Citizen Username: Woodstock Post Number: 414 Registered: 9-2002  |
dgm, The school budget, from what I understand, is determined before the tax rate. So if the school needs more money, we simply pay more. The school does not lose money if a commercial property is given a PILOT. If the school needs (and the School Board/BSE approve) $100 million, then SO and MW pay $100 million. But with a PILOT, we the taxpayers do lose an alternate source for school funds. The bottom line is, even if your school taxes go up a little, your municipal taxes go down* by more. And your overall tax burden appears to be lower than without the PILOT (assuming a project could not be built without one). The presentation that Mssrs. Gross and Matthews was reasonably informative. I'd suggest taking a look at the spreadsheet that Mr. Gross had that outlined the impact of a PILOT on municipal, school, and county taxes. *Of course, we all know taxes never go down. But they can go up by less. Waiting For The Electrician, Or Someone Like Him | ||
| Dan Shelffo Citizen Username: Openspacer Post Number: 65 Registered: 6-2001 |
Where is the spreadsheet? | ||
| vermontgolfer Citizen Username: Vermontgolfer Post Number: 111 Registered: 12-2002 |
I have a hard copy, that I could scan and post, I'll try later. |
